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Ford to build $3.5B factory that will make two kinds of batteries with Chinese partner


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18 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

For someone who is apparently educated, you really don't have a grasp on how to use forum software that has been around for almost 25 years... 


To be fair, I have an engineering degree and it took me 3 attempts to use the multi quote function correctly in the last thread I commented on. The software is a little clunky, even it's been around a while lol

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16 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

Can't Ford and GM come up with some new technology? Are we that dumb in this country?

Ford and GM can't afford to make their own batteries from scratch at this point.  It also would take far too long to source the materials, and invent your own battery technology that doesn't have a patent on it.  And build the whole processing plant.

And there are no American companies to partner with at this point.  Tesla is the only truly American company making batteries, and they aren't sharing squat.  The rest of the battery companies all have Asian connections.

It would take 5-10 years for Ford to do this on its own, possibly more.  There just isn't enough time to do that.

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3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

Actually they are buying batteries from Panasonic or CATL

 

58 minutes ago, akirby said:

Right - they just assemble the packs using purchased cells.  Huge misconception.

 

Tesla designs, engineers, and manufactures its own battery cells (4680 at its Fremont plant for example), and it also sources them from suppliers such as Panasonic, LG Energy Solution, and CATL. Join the Cell Team | Tesla

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21 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

Can't Ford and GM come up with some new technology? Are we that dumb in this country?

 

It's not about being dumb, but the fact that Ford and GM have been in the "old world" of the automotive industry for such a long time and still haven't gotten out of that world. As 92Merc mentioned with respect to EV batteries, it will take time for those companies to build in-house expertise and capabilities in that area. While that happens, Ford and GM need to produce millions of BEV just over the next few years to meet demand. Partnering with companies like CATL is necessary to accomplish that goal.

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2 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

 

Tesla designs, engineers, and manufactures its own battery cells (4680 at its Fremont plant for example), and it also sources them from suppliers such as Panasonic, LG Energy Solution, and CATL. Join the Cell Team | Tesla


Tesla also designs and engineers cars that can travel longer distances with less energy, which is not only beneficial for the environment, but their smaller batteries make them more affordable.

 

Another family member of mine just got a Tesla, this one a plain Model 3, and it’s rated at 272 miles of range with its smallest battery.  Battery capacity is not specified, but expected in mid 55 kWh range.  It’s nothing fancy, nor extremely fast, but does everything most people want pretty well.  Single motor, RWD, smallest available battery, and more than adequate range for commuting.  He did joke that he got a mobile charger to charge at my house when visiting.

 

My point here is that vehicle design matters too.  Energy efficiency matters because it affects purchase cost.  If “old world” automakers limit themselves to large and inefficient BEVs, they will be fighting serious headwinds on pricing.

Edited by Rick73
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47 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

My point here is that vehicle design matters too.  Energy efficiency matters because it affects purchase cost.  If “old world” automakers limit themselves to large and inefficient BEVs, they will be fitting serious headwinds on pricing.

 

Well said Rick73. This is exactly the point that Jim Farley wanted to impress upon Ford engineers when he said at an employee town hall meeting in 2021, "Tesla maximizes use of electrons in the vehicle. No one does it better than they do. Their customers pay less for a better battery..."

 

Since that time, the lead that Tesla has over all legacy automakers when it comes to making a "better battery" at a lower cost, and of designing vehicles that are optimized to be BEV, has widened.

Edited by rperez817
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On 3/15/2023 at 4:21 PM, Captainp4 said:

That doesn't sound right, don't they produce at giga Nevada and just recently announced expansion on that plant..?

 

You are correct Captainp4. As mentioned in the link that silvrsvt shared in the previous post, Tesla uses a variety of battery designs for its BEV and energy storage products. Some use cells designed and engineered by Tesla in-house (e.g., 4680 used in some Model Y), others use cells from suppliers like Panasonic and LG Energy Solution (e.g., 2170 used in Model 3).

 

Tesla engineers have long worked with battery suppliers on system integration and on optimizing battery chemistry for its applications, going back to the days of the original first gen Tesla Roadster.

Edited by rperez817
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16 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

Can't Ford and GM come up with some new technology? Are we that dumb in this country?  Does a factory really cost $3.5 billion?  Really?

A relative bargain. SoFi Stadium, home of the LA Rams and Chargers, cost $5.5 billion. In a multi trillion dollar global economy, a billion ain't that much anymore. This old Boomer has had to adjust his mental cash register several times.

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18 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

Can't Ford and GM come up with some new technology? Are we that dumb in this country?  Does a factory really cost $3.5 billion?  Really?

 

something new doesn't just appear at the snap of a finger.  And Ford/others cant just sit around and wait for it while everyone passes them.

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On 3/15/2023 at 2:46 PM, rperez817 said:

Since that time, the lead that Tesla has over all legacy automakers when it comes to making a "better battery" at a lower cost, and of designing vehicles that are optimized to be BEV, has widened.


Agree completely.  Tesla no doubt makes vehicles that are optimized to be BEV, but that has limited them to aerodynamic cars and SUVs which are not much more than oversized aerodynamic cars.  Tesla Model X, as an example, has a Cd of 0.24 which puts it in a different class than your typical SUV like an Explorer or Expedition.  To me it looks more like a large Model 3 than a true SUV.  It may be called an SUV but profile looks more like an aero sedan.

 

We will have to see if legacy automakers, or Tesla for that matter, can make traditional SUVs viable and profitable as BEVs.  Tesla still doesn’t have a pickup truck, or a traditional SUV-looking vehicle, which begs the question of whether such an electric vehicle can be manufactured and sold at a profit?  I’m questioning in large numbers, not just to the few who can afford expensive toys.

 

For context, the family member that just got a Tesla Model 3 has three other vehicles, and none can be replaced by a BEV today.  One, a Wrangler, could be replaced by PHEV version, but BEV isn’t available yet.  The other two are large truck-based with powerful V8s and unlikely to be replaceable by BEVs in the foreseeable future.  From my perspective electrification will likely be a lot slower than many expect. 

 

 

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On 3/17/2023 at 8:01 AM, Joe771476 said:

Can't Ford and GM come up with some new technology? Are we that dumb in this country?  Does a factory really cost $3.5 billion?  Really?

1. No

2. yes

3. yes

 

Ford is investing deep and hard in order to catch up, Tesla has been on this for over a decade developing efficient construction and operation of BEV systems including motors, drives software and battery development. My concern is whether Ford and others are a little too late and locking into soon to be redundant Battery tech?
 

So just as other manufacturers look to catch up, Tesla finds a way to reduce costs for a future subcompact “Tesla 2” with obvious flow on to existing products. Things like sodium batteries with lower costs are now in production,  it makes me wonder if costs and change in tech will lead some into decisions they quickly regret, the old bad decision to turn left or right problem….

Edited by jpd80
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