Ford Study Shows Heated Panels Save EV Range

[ANTAUS]

Autoblog.com

[tarheels23]

so heated seats will provide similar results?

[rmc523]

BMW has this on the armrests of some of their high end models.  It's an interesting feeling, but unless your arm is on the armrest, you don't feel it.  I wonder if their setup puts out more radiant heat?

[Chrisgb]

Might have to add heated glass as well. I don't think radiated panels alone will keep windows clear of frost or fogging without air movement in cold weather. Moving air is more efficient at displacing frost than ambient radiated heat; that's why we have a Defrost setting on our vehicle's HVAC systems now. Direct heated glass on at least the windshield and front windows may shave that projected 5% efficiency gain even thinner.

[akirby]

18 hours ago, tarheels23 said:

so heated seats will provide similar results?

Seats don’t radiate or retain heat like metal.

[jasonj80]

40 minutes ago, Chrisgb said:

Might have to add heated glass as well. I don't think radiated panels alone will keep windows clear of frost or fogging without air movement in cold weather. Moving air is more efficient at displacing frost than ambient radiated heat; that's why we have a Defrost setting on our vehicle's HVAC systems now. Direct heated glass on at least the windshield and front windows may shave that projected 5% efficiency gain even thinner.

Most Euro Fords already have heated windshields installed which make way more sense for an electric vehicle; they never offered Quick-clear on US/Canadian Models (short of the TC and Explorer Mountaineer in 2006-2010) They always site low take but part of it was dealers would never order it for stock items (even in the north) Never made sense not to offer it on the Edge as they were built on the same line and could have been included with the Cold Weather Package rather than the heated wiper park -- which goes to the other thread on how Ford wastes billions duplicating engineering. Design a heated windshield, then design a heated wiper park for the same vehicle to accomplish the same thing only worse, Then remove the heated wiper park to save costs.

[Rick73]

Seats appear to have been included in comparison.

 

“And the company compared regular vans running HVAC and modified vans with nearly every surface imaginable concealing heating pads. And we mean every. The seats, headrests, armrests, door panels, sun visors, lower steering column cowl and even the floor mats.“

[Captainp4]

Makes sense on a delivery vehicle. Does Ford use heat pumps on their EVs or resistive coils? If still resitive I wonder how this approach compares to a heat pump?

[ANTAUS]

I'm in Orlando FL, not sure what value that would add since it rarely gets cold here.  Hell, after 3 years of MKZ ownership, have just used heated seats maybe 4-5 times, and didn't even bother with the heated steering wheel.

[rperez817]

32 minutes ago, Captainp4 said:

Does Ford use heat pumps on their EVs or resistive coils? If still resitive I wonder how this approach compares to a heat pump?

 

Both. Ford recently patented a new vapor injection heat pump for use on E-Transit Custom. 

 

US20190128573A1.pdf

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Captainp4 said:

Makes sense on a delivery vehicle. Does Ford use heat pumps on their EVs or resistive coils? If still resitive I wonder how this approach compares to a heat pump?

Most heat pumps heat air so I would guess they’re resistive elements.

[Captainp4]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Most heat pumps heat air so I would guess they’re resistive elements.

What? Heat pumps are what heats/cools your house using freon/compressors and the pv=nrt formula, resistive elements are what they use when it says "emergency heat" on your little display when the heat pump fails and makes your power bill go to a million because it's just directing electricity to resistance and blowing air over it (wasting energy and .. range in an EV). Unless I'm misinformed or missing your point.

[akirby]

40 minutes ago, Captainp4 said:

What? Heat pumps are what heats/cools your house using freon/compressors and the pv=nrt formula, resistive elements are what they use when it says "emergency heat" on your little display when the heat pump fails and makes your power bill go to a million because it's just directing electricity to resistance and blowing air over it (wasting energy and .. range in an EV). Unless I'm misinformed or missing your point.

Heat pumps use a compressor and refrigerant to heat the air blowing across the coils in normal mode.  Just like a normal car heater except the heat source is different.  The auxiliary strips in the unit are just an electric backup system.  They’re not part of the heat pump.  They’re an auxiliary system that takes over when the heat pump can’t supply enough heat.

 

The only way to have a heat pump radiate heat from panels is to circulate the hot refrigerant through the panel itself and that’s clearly too complicated.  therefore the panels must be heated with electric resistive strips.

Edited February 23, 2023 by akirby

[akirby]

In other words, using a heat pump would result in hot air just like a regular car heater whereas forcing solid panels to radiate heat would almost certainly require electrical strips.

[CurtisH]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Heat pumps use a compressor and refrigerant to heat the air blowing across the coils in normal mode.  Just like a normal car heater except the heat source is different.  The auxiliary strips in the unit are just an electric backup system.  They’re not part of the heat pump.  They’re an auxiliary system that takes over when the heat pump can’t supply enough heat.

 

The only way to have a heat pump radiate heat from panels is to circulate the hot refrigerant through the panel itself and that’s clearly too complicated.  therefore the panels must be heated with electric resistive strips.

This is what I also assumed they would do.  Not sure how they could use a heat pump to heat the panels themselves. 

[slemke]

I think the intent of the question was to ask whether Ford’s BEVs use a heat pump or air blown over resistors.  The resistive pads may not have much of an advantage over a heat pump.  Based on a quick google search, neither the Mach e or lightning uses a heat pump.

[akirby]

9 hours ago, slemke said:

I think the intent of the question was to ask whether Ford’s BEVs use a heat pump or air blown over resistors.  The resistive pads may not have much of an advantage over a heat pump.  Based on a quick google search, neither the Mach e or lightning uses a heat pump

 

 

Ahh you’re right.  I thought the question was whether they would be using a heat pump or resistive coils to heat the flat panels mentioned in the article.

[Chrisgb]

20 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

Most Euro Fords already have heated windshields installed which make way more sense for an electric vehicle; they never offered Quick-clear on US/Canadian Models (short of the TC and Explorer Mountaineer in 2006-2010) 

As I recall the heated windshield was an option on the Crown Vic and either std or opt on Lincolns back in the mid-late 80s. My understanding was besides the low dealer spec, they were very expensive and rather scarce to replace. 

[Rick73]

In mild cold weather, a heat pump can “pump” much more than the 15% extra heat (13% less energy) assuming study compared against resistance cabin heat, so a heat pump should be much more efficient in mild cool weather.  Pumping 2~3 times as much energy as it consumes isn’t uncommon for many heat pumps.  The biggest challenge I see is that heat pumps don’t work well or at all when it’s really cold outside, which is when driving range is adversely affected the most.  I expect that when really cold, a heat pump would shut down and resistance heat would take over, perhaps in form of heated interior panels for delivery vans?  Installing heat pump and heated panels may not be mutually exclusive, though I doubt they would operate at same time often if ever.

[jasonj80]

2 hours ago, Chrisgb said:

As I recall the heated windshield was an option on the Crown Vic and either std or opt on Lincolns back in the mid-late 80s. My understanding was besides the low dealer spec, they were very expensive and rather scarce to replace. 

Those used a different way to heat the windshield vs the ones currently in use on European Fords. Those used a coating that was heated and were 5-10% of the vehicle cost. Launched on the Taurus. 
 

 

The new ones heated windshields are comparable in cost to a regular windshield replacement. Most 2019+ Fords already use a heated section for the frontal safety system camera to have clear view already. 
 

 

[Rick73]

Ford Media covers this subject in greater detail than OP article, providing more information.  I was surprised that 32 F ambient temperature reduces range as much as it does.

 

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/en/news/2023/02/22/ford-engineers-discover-best-way-to-improve-electric-vehicle-ran.html

[Captainp4]

16 hours ago, slemke said:

I think the intent of the question was to ask whether Ford’s BEVs use a heat pump or air blown over resistors.  The resistive pads may not have much of an advantage over a heat pump.  Based on a quick google search, neither the Mach e or lightning uses a heat pump.

Yes, this is what I was asking. If a heat pump for the "normal" heater INSTEAD of heated panels would provide the same/better/worse efficiency as compared to resistive elements in the "normal" heater as I thought Ford was still using on their BEVs, but wasn't sure.

7 hours ago, akirby said:

 

 

Ahh you’re right.  I thought the question was whether they would be using a heat pump or resistive coils to heat the flat panels mentioned in the article.

Sorry for the confusion, of course a heat pump for panels would be WAY complicated, not even sure you could make that work.

[akirby]

2 hours ago, Captainp4 said:

Yes, this is what I was asking. If a heat pump for the "normal" heater INSTEAD of heated panels would provide the same/better/worse efficiency as compared to resistive elements in the "normal" heater as I thought Ford was still using on their BEVs, but wasn't sure.

Sorry for the confusion, of course a heat pump for panels would be WAY complicated, not even sure you could make that work.

The problem appears to be the use of hot air for heating regardless of source.  When you open the door you lose all the heat.  radiant heat doesn’t go away like that.  Same reason in floor radiant works so well in houses.