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Ford February 2023 Sales - Up 21.9%


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4 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Agreed, Ford seems to be orphaning Transit/Tourneo Connect, despite loyal customers waiting for new ones to be delivered and stalking used ones. Transit is bigger than Econoline and can't even clear a standard 7 foot tall garage door, creating an opening for Transit/Tourneo Custom in North America, it's already capable of electrification and hopefully Ford will bring it here.


Transit Custom has been seen testing in US, and also hope Ford brings it here.  The UK Ford site mentions the L1 height is under 2 meters, so can definitely pass under 7-foot garage door.  My present van can not, but it’s old and I don’t mind parking outside.

 

The UK Ford site also mentions an extended high-roof variant (L2H2 as before) but can’t find any dimensions yet.  The previous generation H2 was listed at 2.3 meters high, which could pass under an 8-foot door or most drive-thru.  One picture I saw of an H2 testing in Europe looked much taller, so it may be closer to not fitting under 8-feet.

 

I would seriously consider buying an L2H2 with 2.5L PHEV and Pro Power Onboard as long as price was reasonable.  It comes as close to meeting all my needs as anything I’ve seen information on.

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10 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Ford seems to have given up on Transit Connect. The current version in Europe, called Tourneo Connect, is a rebadged VW Caddy (MQB).

 

Ford's BEV van efforts are currently focused on E-Transit and E-Transit Custom.

 

Transit Connect is still on sale in Europe. Ford extended the production in Spain until next year. Tourneo Connect is the passenger version and it did switch over to become rebadged Caddy. It's part of the Ford-VW commercial vehicle alliance in Europe. Ford will start supplying VW with Amarok pickup truck later this year.

 

Ford will replace Transit Connect with the new Transit Courier which will be bigger than the current one. 

 

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The sales for smaller cargo vans like the Transit Connect have evaporated...that is why all the manufacturers are killing them off. 

 

Plus the Maverick can prob do 80-90% with a cap on it that the Transit Connect did for Fleet vehicles. 

 

Sales didn't evaporate. Supply did. The three vans in the market all had supply circumstance change related to corporate decisions and nothing to do with actual demand. 

 

Ford pulled back when it lost the Chicken Tax court case. It was going to make a new one based on Maverick in Mexico but cancelled it because Hermosillo cannot keep up with demand on Bronco Sport and Maverick. And Nissan withdrew from fleet sales so it ended production of NV200 in Mexico (and the fullsize NV2500/3500). Ram PromasterCity's days are also numbered because Stellantis has replaced Fiat Doblo with a rebadged Citrone Berlingo which is not Federalized - the CKD operation in Mexico will end once they run out of stock. 

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21 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The sales for smaller cargo vans like the Transit Connect have evaporated...that is why all the manufacturers are killing them off. 

 

Plus the Maverick can prob do 80-90% with a cap on it that the Transit Connect did for Fleet vehicles. 

 

Yeah, I think Ford stopped trying once they got caught with pulling out the seats to avoid the tax.

 

And I was under the impression that with a new Mexico-built model - similar to the Ranger switching to the new generation from the stopgap current version - was that we'd finally get a model that they'd push more.

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On 3/11/2023 at 3:28 AM, rmc523 said:

 

Yeah, I think Ford stopped trying once they got caught with pulling out the seats to avoid the tax.

 

And I was under the impression that with a new Mexico-built model - similar to the Ranger switching to the new generation from the stopgap current version - was that we'd finally get a model that they'd push more.

From what I gather, C2 Transit Connect was silently dropped, the strong demand for Maverick prioritised over another new vehicle.

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Does Ford have sufficient Transit Custom manufacturing capacity to import Custom to North America as a replacement for Connect?  I do not know if it’s even possible, but wonder why they are testing Transit Custom in US after dropping plans for new NA Connect replacement.

 

https://fordauthority.com/2022/11/ford-transit-custom-once-again-spotted-testing-in-u-s/

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1 hour ago, Rick73 said:


Does Ford have sufficient Transit Custom manufacturing capacity to import Custom to North America as a replacement for Connect?  I do not know if it’s even possible, but wonder why they are testing Transit Custom in US after dropping plans for new NA Connect replacement.

 

https://fordauthority.com/2022/11/ford-transit-custom-once-again-spotted-testing-in-u-s/

 

Would have the same issue with the Chicken Tax. They could do CKD to get around it though. 

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2 hours ago, Rick73 said:


Is the Chicken Tax the main reason the Connect is being discontinued, or is it more about small vans in general losing appeal?

 

It would actually benefit Ford to be the only player in the game.

 

Ford actually shot themselves in the foot by rebadging the Caddy in Europe, thus sacrificing the shared costs for a NA model. 

 

Also , the Mexican plant can't keep up with demand with the Maverick and BS, so there is no room. 

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39 minutes ago, ausrutherford said:

Also , the Mexican plant can't keep up with demand with the Maverick and BS, so there is no room. 


I questioned excess manufacturing capacity in Turkey or wherever Transit Custom are built.  The Custom is already very popular in Europe according to Ford so they may not have capacity to export to NA anyway?  

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37 minutes ago, ausrutherford said:

 

It would actually benefit Ford to be the only player in the game.

 

Ford actually shot themselves in the foot by rebadging the Caddy in Europe, thus sacrificing the shared costs for a NA model. 

 

Also , the Mexican plant can't keep up with demand with the Maverick and BS, so there is no room. 

 

Agreed. It would have made sense to build the Bronco Sport in Louisville where the Escape and Corsair are made. I do think the LAP has plenty of production capacity to be able to build all three. This would free up Hermosillo Plant for Maverick and the new North American Transit Connect, which was itself going to be based on the Maverick. I do think, if I'm not mistaken, there were plans to do it this way before it was changed/canceled.

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18 hours ago, pffan1990 said:

 

Agreed. It would have made sense to build the Bronco Sport in Louisville where the Escape and Corsair are made. I do think the LAP has plenty of production capacity to be able to build all three. This would free up Hermosillo Plant for Maverick and the new North American Transit Connect, which was itself going to be based on the Maverick. I do think, if I'm not mistaken, there were plans to do it this way before it was changed/canceled.

 

I'm going to assume that LAP would have been struggling to build three different vehicles at 300K units a year. The only time they made that many was when they had one or two products going down the line, plus I'll assume that the Bronco Sport is more profitable being built in Mexico and can be exported to SA and other markets easier. 

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2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

I'm going to assume that LAP would have been struggling to build three different vehicles at 300K units a year. The only time they made that many was when they had one or two products going down the line, plus I'll assume that the Bronco Sport is more profitable being built in Mexico and can be exported to SA and other markets easier. 

 

Yeah I had thought about that too regarding the ability to build all three at capacity at LAP. It still could have been done. However, I do think Ford underestimated the demand and success of the Maverick and even the Bronco Sport. I didn't even think about the lower costs of building the BS in Mexico as well as exporting to other markets from there. Good points on that. With Farley's recent comments regarding the Escape, perhaps the BS could be built at LAP as an overflow plant, in addition to Escape and Corsair. The BS's mid-cycle update would be a good time to do that. But I don't think they'll do that if LAP is likely to be converted into EV plant later this decade, according to an insider or two. At least Ford is committed to building more of Maverick, BS, and Mach-E at their respective Mexican plants to meet demand. We'll see...

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14 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I'm going to assume that LAP would have been struggling to build three different vehicles at 300K units a year. The only time they made that many was when they had one or two products going down the line, plus I'll assume that the Bronco Sport is more profitable being built in Mexico and can be exported to SA and other markets easier. 

LAP maxed out at 430k combined when exporting to China but clearly Ford doesn’t want Bronco Sport or Maverick going there and losing their Mexican cost advantage. The issue is inability to build required amounts not perceived capacity limits 

Edited by jpd80
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6 hours ago, zipnzap said:

Maybe Ford is afraid of the Custom cannibalizing T150 sales?

 

Custom what? 

Part of the reason that the connect was brought over was also due to fuel economy rules based on Sqft of a vehicle-the E-150 fell into an no mans land for its size vs MPGs. The T150 is considerably larger. 

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6 hours ago, zipnzap said:

Maybe Ford is afraid of the Custom cannibalizing T150 sales?


Cannibalization probably always plays a part to some degree, but competition between the two different size Transit hasn’t prevented Ford from offering them in same European markets.  The Custom Transit with 4-cylinder hybrid options should be more fuel efficient than the T-150, particularly in city driving, and as others mentioned is garageable.  For buyers who do not need to haul large loads or tow heavy  trailers, the Custom seems a great option to have.
 

Hopefully the new 2.5L Petrol powertrain will make it easier for Ford to consider for North America.  Description sounds very similar to Maverick’s, except there is a PHEV option. The BEV variant may also do well in NA but could cannibalize E-Transit due to greater range; at least until E-Transit gets larger battery.

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7 hours ago, Rick73 said:


Cannibalization probably always plays a part to some degree, but competition between the two different size Transit hasn’t prevented Ford from offering them in same European markets.  The Custom Transit with 4-cylinder hybrid options should be more fuel efficient than the T-150, particularly in city driving, and as others mentioned is garageable.  For buyers who do not need to haul large loads or tow heavy  trailers, the Custom seems a great option to have.
 

Hopefully the new 2.5L Petrol powertrain will make it easier for Ford to consider for North America.  Description sounds very similar to Maverick’s, except there is a PHEV option. The BEV variant may also do well in NA but could cannibalize E-Transit due to greater range; at least until E-Transit gets larger battery.

 

European van markets are not distorted by CAFE footprint and EPA emission cutoff at 8500 lbs GVWR. This is why Ford can offer 4 vans in different sizes. (it is distorted in other ways - e.g. CO2 emission targets and displacement based taxes that favors diesel over gas)

 

I have explained the problem with Transit Custom before... it is in no-man's land in terms of GVWR. It is about 80% size of Transit but it is under 8500 lbs cutoff so it is subject to light duty vehicle emission. Ford would rather just sell you a Transit T150 (which at 8505 lbs is actually a class 2b like F-250) which places it in less stringent emission class and weighted impact to CAFE. And chances are if you want a van in Transit Custom size, you can easily make do with a Transit so Ford doesn't want to bother. And this is reflected in how fleet managers make the decision... midsize vans have never sold well in the US because you can "abuse" a full size to do the job without much cost penalty. This is why VW and Toyota don't want to sell Transporter and Hiace (the two best selling work vans outside the US)... it just doesn't make sense in the US given the emission and CAFE regulations.

 

Transit Connect made sense because it is physically small, which means there is actually a big demand in urban area for such a small van. You can't "abuse" a full size Transit to do the job of Transit Connect if you don't have the physical room (e.g. tight parking, low garage roof etc). 

 

The business case for Transit Connect is fundamentally sound. Ford went as far as sending out RFP for Tier 1 suppliers for a new generation based on Maverick only to cancel it because it can't keep up with demand as is. 

 

https://nhcleancities.org/2016/04/various-vehicle-weight-classes-matter/

Edited by bzcat
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8 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Custom what? 

Part of the reason that the connect was brought over was also due to fuel economy rules based on Sqft of a vehicle-the E-150 fell into an no mans land for its size vs MPGs. The T150 is considerably larger. 

Transit Custom:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Transit_Custom

Much larger than a Connect. About Chevy Astro and Aerostar size.

It was made to replace the low-roof Transit in Europe, but the issue is low-roof Transits are being produced in sold in North America. 

Another issue is that, unlike the Astro and Aerostar, it's FWD only.

T-150 is about the same size as the E-150 (and short wheelbase Express), especially the low roof, short wheelbase version:

https://allservicecitgo.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/hotspot-3.jpg

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8 hours ago, Rick73 said:


Cannibalization probably always plays a part to some degree, but competition between the two different size Transit hasn’t prevented Ford from offering them in same European markets.  The Custom Transit with 4-cylinder hybrid options should be more fuel efficient than the T-150, particularly in city driving, and as others mentioned is garageable.  For buyers who do not need to haul large loads or tow heavy  trailers, the Custom seems a great option to have.
 

Hopefully the new 2.5L Petrol powertrain will make it easier for Ford to consider for North America.  Description sounds very similar to Maverick’s, except there is a PHEV option. The BEV variant may also do well in NA but could cannibalize E-Transit due to greater range; at least until E-Transit gets larger battery.

 

Ford doesn't sell low-roof Transits in Europe anymore after the 2015 redesign.

 

In fact, that's what what the Custom was created to replace. So there's less overlap there. But Ford introduced low roof Transits to NA after they started producing the Transit here.

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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

This is why VW and Toyota don't want to sell Transporter and Hiace (the two best selling work vans outside the US)... it just doesn't make sense in the US given the emission and CAFE regulations.

 

 

Isn't the Hiace a full-size?

Edited by zipnzap
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3 hours ago, zipnzap said:

Isn't the Hiace a full-size?

 

Maybe fullsize in Japan but not anywhere else. Hiace has always been about the same size as other midsize vans like VW Transporter and Transit Custom. Toyota doesn't sell a Euro/US fullsize van.

 

The two commercial vans it offers outside North America and Europe:

  • Liteace/Townace ~ Transit Connect
  • Hiace ~ Transit Custom

The "Toyota Van" from the 1980s that was sold in the US was an earlier generation of Townace. 

 

In Europe, Toyota now sell rebadged Stellantis van and no longer offers its own vans

  • Proace City (Citroen Berlingo) ~ Transit Connect
  • Proace (Peugeot Expert) ~ Transit Custom

 

Edited by bzcat
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4 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Maybe fullsize in Japan but not anywhere else. Hiace has always been about the same size as other midsize vans like VW Transporter and Transit Custom. Toyota doesn't sell a Euro/US fullsize van.

 

The two commercial vans it offers outside North America and Europe:

  • Liteace/Townace ~ Transit Connect
  • Hiace ~ Transit Custom

The "Toyota Van" from the 1980s that was sold in the US was an earlier generation of Townace. 

 

In Europe, Toyota now sell rebadged Stellantis van and no longer offers its own vans

  • Proace City (Citroen Berlingo) ~ Transit Connect
  • Proace (Peugeot Expert) ~ Transit Custom

 

 

I've seen a bunch of these up close, and even ridden in some.

 

In Asia and Africa, an extended Hiace has always been a 15-seater the size of an Econoline, especially now that the recent redesign has moved away from a cab-over design.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_HiAce

 

The older models have even served as NPR-sized box/flat-bed trucks.

 

For a while, there was also a complete unrelated mid-size version also called a "Hiace", which is confusing. Maybe that's the one that's been sold Europe. Maybe the European market didn't like cab-over.

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