Charging your EV home at night is bad!

[fordmantpw]

3 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Yep, it’s absolutely stupid. There’s many, many things about the way this state is run that is very very stupid and I have no hope it will ever change either. 

 

We love to visit MI and I absolutely love the Great Lakes, but yeah, I agree, there are some questionable things going on in your state.

[akirby]

3 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Yep, it’s absolutely stupid. There’s many, many things about the way this state is run that is very very stupid and I have no hope it will ever change either. 

I’m sure it was written to protect children from living in unhealthy squalor conditions but solar is the opposite of that.

[Rick73]

13 hours ago, AGR said:

Uh, there's this thing called wind power. The wind generally blow stronger at night:

Wind power is so cheap at night in Texas, some companies give it away | Grist

Texas has expanded wind power at a very fast rate since then, making solar contribution much less by comparison.  The fact that wind power doesn’t require as much storage as solar is probably a big factor.  Wind power is now greater than coal and approaching natural gas capacity.  It’s risky in my opinion but when it works it works great.

 

[paintguy]

On 3/31/2023 at 8:56 AM, Rick73 said:

Texas has expanded wind power at a very fast rate since then, making solar contribution much less by comparison.  The fact that wind power doesn’t require as much storage as solar is probably a big factor.  Wind power is now greater than coal and approaching natural gas capacity.  It’s risky in my opinion but when it works it works great.

 

Interesting that Installed capacity and Energy use show fossil fuel and Nuclear with higher utilization. Solar, by definition, is available only part of the time. The fossil sources have long histories with estimates of availabilty. Renewables seem to require higher installed capacity and storage. These technologies still in their infancy or "childhood".

Edited April 1, 2023 by paintguy
spelling

[bzcat]

Grid level storage will be required to provide resiliency to enable better utilization of renewable sources. That's where states that have forward looking regulatory agencies are looking and a few have legislated required storage as a % of generating capacity. 

 

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/blog/infographic-q4-21-us-battery-storage-by-the-numbers#:~:text=Currently%2C nine states have specific,New York%2C Oregon and Virginia.

[Rick73]

49 minutes ago, bzcat said:

Grid level storage will be required to provide resiliency to enable better utilization of renewable sources. That's where states that have forward looking regulatory agencies are looking and a few have legislated required storage as a % of generating capacity. 

 

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/blog/infographic-q4-21-us-battery-storage-by-the-numbers#:~:text=Currently%2C nine states have specific,New York%2C Oregon and Virginia.

It describes most projects as having 2 to 4 hours of storage, and most of the projects connected to solar installations.  To me it sounds like the storage is there for operational purposes, not to store energy for longer periods of time.  As an example, it does not appear to me that purpose is to store daytime collected energy to use later at night. 

[silvrsvt]

40 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

It describes most projects as having 2 to 4 hours of storage, and most of the projects connected to solar installations.  To me it sounds like the storage is there for operational purposes, not to store energy for longer periods of time.  As an example, it does not appear to me that purpose is to store daytime collected energy to use later at night. 

 

Why would you need power at a solar plant for operational purposes? Not sure how you got to that idea reading that article. 

[Rick73]

31 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Why would you need power at a solar plant for operational purposes? Not sure how you got to that idea reading that article. 

Because 2 hours worth of storage seems pointless unless it’s there to handle power fluctuations and to provide time to bring other equipment online when solar output drops off.

 

When solar is a very small part of total, it’s easier to essentially ignore its contribution to the total, but as it becomes a greater percentage of total grid capacity, you can’t just suddenly reduce its contribution without adverse consequences.  The more solar you have, the more critical it becomes.

 

If you are counting on solar power output and suddenly it drops off due to weather changes (clouds, storms, etc.) then battery storage can pick up the slack until conditions return to normal, or managers bring other equipment online.  In my opinion renewables are great at some things, but making the grid and its operation simple isn’t one of them.

[silvrsvt]

34 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Because 2 hours worth of storage seems pointless unless it’s there to handle power fluctuations and to provide time to bring other equipment online when solar output drops off.

 

When solar is a very small part of total, it’s easier to essentially ignore its contribution to the total, but as it becomes a greater percentage of total grid capacity, you can’t just suddenly reduce its contribution without adverse consequences.  The more solar you have, the more critical it becomes.

 

If you are counting on solar power output and suddenly it drops off due to weather changes (clouds, storms, etc.) then battery storage can pick up the slack until conditions return to normal, or managers bring other equipment online.  In my opinion renewables are great at some things, but making the grid and its operation simple isn’t one of them.

 

I get what your saying, but we aren't at that point yet that solar is carrying a load so much that a battery storage (in whatever form that is) is required to last 8 hours at this time. It will be a future requirement as other forms of energy are retired from use. This isnt going to happen over night. 

[akirby]

2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Because 2 hours worth of storage seems pointless unless it’s there to handle power fluctuations and to provide time to bring other equipment online when solar output drops off.

 

When solar is a very small part of total, it’s easier to essentially ignore its contribution to the total, but as it becomes a greater percentage of total grid capacity, you can’t just suddenly reduce its contribution without adverse consequences.  The more solar you have, the more critical it becomes.

 

If you are counting on solar power output and suddenly it drops off due to weather changes (clouds, storms, etc.) then battery storage can pick up the slack until conditions return to normal, or managers bring other equipment online.  In my opinion renewables are great at some things, but making the grid and its operation simple isn’t one of them.

BESS - Battery Energy Storage Systems only provide a boost during peak loads which is usually just a couple of hours per day.  For Solar the times would be opposite but same principle.  Current systems pump water uphill during low demand.  They’re also looking at using super heavy weights that get lifted up.

 

 

[tarheels23]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

BESS - Battery Energy Storage Systems only provide a boost during peak loads which is usually just a couple of hours per day.  For Solar the times would be opposite but same principle.  Current systems pump water uphill during low demand.  They’re also looking at using super heavy weights that get lifted up.

 

 

I remember reading, maybe 40 years ago about a facility in VA, an old hydroelectric dam, that would pump water up at night to run down during the day to increase the peak for the local grid.  Same idea as this

[Rick73]

10 hours ago, akirby said:

BESS - Battery Energy Storage Systems only provide a boost during peak loads which is usually just a couple of hours per day.  For Solar the times would be opposite but same principle.  Current systems pump water uphill during low demand.  They’re also looking at using super heavy weights that get lifted up.

 

 

 

It seems Los Angeles has considered turning Lake Mead and Hoover Dam into “giant battery”  for energy storage; though I expect their water shortage could make it a challenge.

 

https://www.green-technology.org/hoover-dam/

 

 

[akirby]

7 hours ago, Rick73 said:

 

It seems Los Angeles has considered turning Lake Mead and Hoover Dam into “giant battery”  for energy storage; though I expect their water shortage could make it a challenge.

 

https://www.green-technology.org/hoover-dam/

 

 

 

That’s why they’re looking at columns of super heavy weights that could be slowly lifted during low demand and released during high demand.  Almost anything can become a battery storage system.

[Gurgeh]

On 3/30/2023 at 8:37 PM, AGR said:

Uh, there's this thing called wind power. The wind generally blow stronger at night:

Wind power is so cheap at night in Texas, some companies give it away | Grist

Actually, it is the opposite. While obviously not as pronounced a difference as with solar, surface winds generally die down at night. Just Google "does the wind blow more at night?" and you'll get tons of responses, all saying that, no, the wind does not blow more at night. It blows more during the day. This is part of the reason for the conclusions of the Stanford study. If you get rid of baseload power, which California and much of the west is busy doing, and depend increasingly on intermittent renewable energy that is more available (in less costly direct to grid form) during the day, you're going to have to restrict folks from charging their EVs at night once the EV transition passes a certain point unless you want to invest in massive amounts of expensive battery or kinetic storage facilities. 

 

Here's just one link: https://wxguys.ssec.wisc.edu/2013/11/18/why-does-the-wind-diminish-after-sunset/

[fordmantpw]

18 hours ago, tarheels23 said:

I remember reading, maybe 40 years ago about a facility in VA, an old hydroelectric dam, that would pump water up at night to run down during the day to increase the peak for the local grid.  Same idea as this

 

We have one in our system here in MO.  Look up Taum Sauk.  It's pretty cool, really, just a HUUUUGE battery.

[70 Stang]

19 hours ago, tarheels23 said:

I remember reading, maybe 40 years ago about a facility in VA, an old hydroelectric dam, that would pump water up at night to run down during the day to increase the peak for the local grid.  Same idea as this

I'm pretty sure that is at Smith Mountain Lake.

[Rangers09]

On 3/30/2023 at 5:37 PM, AGR said:

Uh, there's this thing called wind power. The wind generally blow stronger at night:

Wind power is so cheap at night in Texas, some companies give it away | Grist

 

When studying Meteorology, we were taught the opposite applies. Surface winds tend to reduce once the sun goes down.

[AGR]

13 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

Actually, it is the opposite. While obviously not as pronounced a difference as with solar, surface winds generally die down at night. Just Google "does the wind blow more at night?" and you'll get tons of responses, all saying that, no, the wind does not blow more at night. It blows more during the day. This is part of the reason for the conclusions of the Stanford study. If you get rid of baseload power, which California and much of the west is busy doing, and depend increasingly on intermittent renewable energy that is more available (in less costly direct to grid form) during the day, you're going to have to restrict folks from charging their EVs at night once the EV transition passes a certain point unless you want to invest in massive amounts of expensive battery or kinetic storage facilities. 

 

Here's just one link: https://wxguys.ssec.wisc.edu/2013/11/18/why-does-the-wind-diminish-after-sunset/

 

Well, whatever. When I do a search, I get the opposite. That just goes to show that you can always find what you to find online.

[Rick73]

The article appears to have been based on computer modeling of required charging power for 8 million vehicles in California in 2030.  Peak charging demand ranged from 3.3 to 8.7 GW.  Peak reductions associated with nighttime versus daytime charging are obviously significant and important, but in itself does not answer where additional peak power will come from, or what impact it will have on environment.  I can’t access study for explanation, but it appears the previously mentioned 1.2 GW reduction in peak power by charging at night (5.4 vs 4.2 GW) may be a small part of required solution.

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306261921016214

 

Abstract

To prepare for rapid growth in global electric vehicle adoption, grid and policy planners depend on detailed forecasts of future charging demand. In this paper we propose a novel holistic, scalable, probabilistic framework to produce large-scale estimates of electric vehicle charging load for long-term planning that capture real drivers’ charging patterns. Our framework captures the uncertainty and stochasticity in charging demand by taking a graphical modeling approach. It has three core elements: driver groups, charging segment choices, and charging session time and energy requirements. The framework uses hierarchical clustering to group drivers by their charging histories, capturing their heterogeneous behaviors and preferences across different segments or types of charging. The framework uses probabilistic mixture models for each driver group’s sessions to identify the unique charging behaviors observed within each segment. We illustrate its application with a large data set from California, profiling the charging patterns and unique driver clusters it identifies. Using the model knobs representing drivers’ battery capacities, behavior, and segment access we present scenarios for California’s charging demand in 2030 with 8 million passenger electric vehicles. Peak charging demand ranged from 3.3 to 8.7 GW across scenarios. Each was calculated in under 45 s on a laptop computer.

[AGR]

On 4/1/2023 at 8:06 PM, Rangers09 said:

 

When studying Meteorology, we were taught the opposite applies. Surface winds tend to reduce once the sun goes down.

 

I studied meteorology too, but that was more years ago than I want to admit.

Perhaps the discrepancy between Gurgeh and my Google searches is that he's talking about surface winds when wind turbines are several hundred feet above the surface.

[Gurgeh]

On 4/1/2023 at 9:39 PM, AGR said:

 

Well, whatever. When I do a search, I get the opposite. That just goes to show that you can always find what you to find online.

Do you have even one link from your research? I looked quite a bit online and couldn't find even one link saying that surface winds increase at night. 

[Chrisgb]

Below is a screen shot of the Tu 4/4 hourly forecast for Duluth, MN. The winds will pick up (2nd column from right) in the late afternoon and remain strong into early Wed AM. Disclaimer: this is during a winter storm watch for the period, and not a normal day-to-day pattern.

16-21ft waves predicted all along the North Shore- bad moon rising! Increased nightly winds do occur occasionally, but under extraordinary conditions. Apples & oranges but it's all fruit.

Screenshot 2023-04-03 at 08.15.59 copy.jp2

[akirby]

On 4/1/2023 at 12:06 PM, fordmantpw said:

 

We have one in our system here in MO.  Look up Taum Sauk.  It's pretty cool, really, just a HUUUUGE battery.

Except when the upper dam breaks and it takes 5 years to rebuild.  Saw that on engineering disasters. ?

[akirby]

It’s pretty common knowledge that uneven solar heating during the day contributes a lot to surface wind.

 

outside of fronts moving through.

Edited April 3, 2023 by akirby

[fordmantpw]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Except when the upper dam breaks and it takes 5 years to rebuild.  Saw that on engineering disasters. ?

 

Yeah, I remember that day quite well, and seeing the emails and notifications come through were pretty scary.  It's miraculous nobody died, but had it been in the summer, I don't think that would have been the case with the campground right below.  The satellite images show the scar down to bedrock to give you an idea of the force of the water.

 

The new one has many improvements over the 60 year old tech in the old one.