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Towing Weight Confusion; RGAWR vs Payload Limit


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I need help understanding why my 22 SD has a payload capacity of 2543 but the Rear Axle Weight rating is 6340.  I’m looking at a 5th wheel with a hitch weight of 2709, but the I’ll be within the GCVWR of 23500.

What is the consequence of going over my payload cap, and are there any other things I should be aware of and approach with caution?

 

2022 F250 w/o upgraded towing package

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I'm not, by any stretch, an expert when it comes to payload but I can share what I know. Your payload is calculated by taking your GVWR (usually 10,000lbs in the case of the F-250 w/out the tow package) and subtracting the weight of the vehicle (before adding in cargo and passengers). The GVWR is what Ford believes is the maximum weight that the vehicle can handle safely. Individual axle weight ratings refer to the maximum load that the axle can handle safely. The maximum load that the two axles can handle together is more than the GVWR for various reasons (other components play into the calculation). 

 

There are a lot of threads re the legal implications and the real-life experiences of people towing while exceeding recommendations. I personally follow the guidelines because I don't know enough about the details to disagree with Ford on their numbers. 

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Yeah, this is one of those things that is *less* than the sum of its parts. Sort of like towing equipment, the piece with the lowest rating ends up defining the capabilities of the entire setup. It isn't the axle that is dictating the payload number, but some other component of the vehicle. I too am curious what all goes into the ratings though. I'm pretty new myself, but found it interesting when asking "can I increase my vehicle's payload" the unanimous answer was "no". I suspect there is more to it than just physical capabilities, but legal and regulatory limits as well. Only a guess though!

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14 hours ago, Diesel Dude said:

I need help understanding why my 22 SD has a payload capacity of 2543 but the Rear Axle Weight rating is 6340.  I’m looking at a 5th wheel with a hitch weight of 2709, but the I’ll be within the GCVWR of 23500.

What is the consequence of going over my payload cap, and are there any other things I should be aware of and approach with caution?

 

2022 F250 w/o upgraded towing package

 

May I suggest taking your truck to the scales without any trailer, but with full fuel and pax. You will receive a total weight and weight on each axle. Based on the sticker on the door frame, which has the max load on each axle, GVWR and payload, compare the numbers you received from the scales.

 

You will know the actual weight (payload) you can add to your truck to stay within the GVWR. Based on a pin weight of 2,709 lbs you will probably exceed this by over 200 lbs.

 

Compare the max rear axle rating and the actual rear axle load from the scales, as this is the maximum load you can add to the rear axle. As a 5th wheel hitch is over the rear axle, the pin weight goes onto the rear axle. I expect you will probably exceed this by a few hundred pounds.

 

Note - is the hitch weight (pin weight) the 5th wheel's OEM posted weight, as new, or an actual pin weight once loaded. You can increase/decrease the pin weight by loading, as you will most likely add 2,000 + lbs of personal effects. When loaded fwd of the axles the pin weight increases, when loaded aft of the axles the pin weight is reduced. You also need to consider the location of your tanks, unless you will only travel with empty tanks. On our 5th wheel, filling the FW tank adds 800 lbs to the pin weight.

 

I started pulling our 41' 5th wheel with a F-350 SRW. I had to limit the trailer's weight to 15,500 lbs and the pin weight to 3,050 lbs, to remain legal. I'll suggest you probably require a F-350 for that 5th wheel and to remain legal. Now with a F-450, I can load to 16,500 lbs and can have the pin weight up to 4,500 lbs.

 

Many post they routinely tow above the truck's rating, and have no issues. However, if we are over the limits, our insurance is voided and the local commercial inspectors can pull us over and use their portable scales. While the probability is low, the possibility is always there.

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16 hours ago, Diesel Dude said:

I need help understanding why my 22 SD has a payload capacity of 2543 but the Rear Axle Weight rating is 6340.  I’m looking at a 5th wheel with a hitch weight of 2709, but the I’ll be within the GCVWR of 23500.

What is the consequence of going over my payload cap, and are there any other things I should be aware of and approach with caution?

 

2022 F250 w/o upgraded towing package

 

Technical answer here: Payload is GVWR - Curb weight.  GVWR is the maximum vehicle weight that the vehicle is designed and tested to for DOT purposes.  Often in order to achieve that GVWR, it requires axle ratings that when combined are greater than the GVWR.  This is so that the vehicle can accommodate a multitude of loading configurations from full pax and minimal payload in the bed, to driver only with a max bumper pull trailer on the back and the bed loaded with the rest of the weight.  In both these scenarios, the total weight of the truck can be exactly the same, but the individual axle weights would be quite different.

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5 hours ago, Rangers09 said:

 

May I suggest taking your truck to the scales without any trailer, but with full fuel and pax. You will receive a total weight and weight on each axle. Based on the sticker on the door frame, which has the max load on each axle, GVWR and payload, compare the numbers you received from the scales.

 

You will know the actual weight (payload) you can add to your truck to stay within the GVWR. Based on a pin weight of 2,709 lbs you will probably exceed this by over 200 lbs.

 

Compare the max rear axle rating and the actual rear axle load from the scales, as this is the maximum load you can add to the rear axle. As a 5th wheel hitch is over the rear axle, the pin weight goes onto the rear axle. I expect you will probably exceed this by a few hundred pounds.

 

Note - is the hitch weight (pin weight) the 5th wheel's OEM posted weight, as new, or an actual pin weight once loaded. You can increase/decrease the pin weight by loading, as you will most likely add 2,000 + lbs of personal effects. When loaded fwd of the axles the pin weight increases, when loaded aft of the axles the pin weight is reduced. You also need to consider the location of your tanks, unless you will only travel with empty tanks. On our 5th wheel, filling the FW tank adds 800 lbs to the pin weight.

 

I started pulling our 41' 5th wheel with a F-350 SRW. I had to limit the trailer's weight to 15,500 lbs and the pin weight to 3,050 lbs, to remain legal. I'll suggest you probably require a F-350 for that 5th wheel and to remain legal. Now with a F-450, I can load to 16,500 lbs and can have the pin weight up to 4,500 lbs.

 

Many post they routinely tow above the truck's rating, and have no issues. However, if we are over the limits, our insurance is voided and the local commercial inspectors can pull us over and use their portable scales. While the probability is low, the possibility is always there.


You’ve summed up the info I’ve been gathering from many people (not RV dealers lol). 
I have weighed my truck, and because of the additions I’ve made, it has gained about 500 lbs…which really cripples pin weight capability. That includes my wife and I, but not my fifth wheel hitch. I’m pushing about 2000 lbs now. 
If we weren’t looking for a full time rig, it would be easier to find something within those limits. The tough pill to swallow is the fact that there are a couple rigs that are just beyond the legal limit on cargo but not over limit on GCVWR. I’m trying to get an idea what, if any, leeway there is on cargo capacity. 
it sounds like a ton of people are in the same boat.

 

You did say something I hadn’t confirmed…which is where you load your weight and how it affects pin weight. I’ve asked, but nobody commits to an answer. ?

 

Thanks!

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23 hours ago, Diesel Dude said:


You’ve summed up the info I’ve been gathering from many people (not RV dealers lol). 
I have weighed my truck, and because of the additions I’ve made, it has gained about 500 lbs…which really cripples pin weight capability. That includes my wife and I, but not my fifth wheel hitch. I’m pushing about 2000 lbs now. 
If we weren’t looking for a full time rig, it would be easier to find something within those limits. The tough pill to swallow is the fact that there are a couple rigs that are just beyond the legal limit on cargo but not over limit on GCVWR. I’m trying to get an idea what, if any, leeway there is on cargo capacity. 
it sounds like a ton of people are in the same boat.

 

You did say something I hadn’t confirmed…which is where you load your weight and how it affects pin weight. I’ve asked, but nobody commits to an answer. ?

 

Thanks!

 

I should also have mentioned that you need to manage the pin weight percentage of gross trailer weight. While you can reduce the pin weight by loading stuff behind the axles, you should ensure you still have 20 - 25% of the trailer's total weight on the pin for stability in towing.

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Not to be the tow police but you’re already over weight before you even hook up that RV by 166 lbs.  Payload is the most limiting factor when towing.  You will hit that limit well before you hit any of the others.  If that pin weight is a “dry” pin weight then it’s only going to get worse weight wise.
 

5th wheels have a majority of there weight in front of the axles.  That’s where all your storage is located.  Most full time, four season campers have a dry pin weight of 18%- 21%.  Now start adding full 30 gallon propane tanks and loading up your storage and camper and now your pin weight goes up.  You might be able to offset it if your fresh water tank is behind the axles by adding water to it.  But now your rolling the dice.

 

 Will the truck tow it?  Sure.  But is it safe and legal?  If considering a new truck skip the SRW models and get a F350 dually and never look back.

 

 

Here is a couple of links to tow calculators that are easy to use and probably answer many questions you have.
http://www.towingplanner.com/Estimators/TonguePinWeightFromDry/?dt=2435&dw=12168&lw=13668

 

 

https://rvingzone.com/towing-calculator/

 

 

 

 

Edited by Zblaze
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Total Payload capacity is 2543 lbs

Now subtract from that:

1) Passenger weights.

2) Your 5th wheel hitch weight that’s in the truck.

3) Any other cargo that’s in the truck.

 

That’s all considered payload.  What you have left over is your max pin weight your truck can tow without exceeding any limits.

 

Adding air bags or any other after market item to the rear suspension will not change your legal payload capacity.  What’s on the door is on the door and nothing can change that.

 


 

Edited by Zblaze
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3 hours ago, Zblaze said:

Total Payload capacity is 2543 lbs

Now subtract from that:

1) Passenger weights.

2) Your 5th wheel hitch weight that’s in the truck.

3) Any other cargo that’s in the truck.

 

That’s all considered payload.  What you have left over is your max pin weight your truck can tow without exceeding any limits.

 

Adding air bags or any other after market item to the rear suspension will not change your legal payload capacity.  What’s on the door is on the door and nothing can change that.

 


 

I beg to differ. I upgraded from all season tires to all terrain tires. That in itself increased the payload 400# as per order sheet. That is with a sticker of 65 psi in the tires. If I increase pressure to 80, then it effectively raises the payload more. The sticker only lists payload as delivered and means nothing as far as load capabilities if items are changed. Axle capacity and tire capacity are what matter. 

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2 hours ago, IA Diver said:

I beg to differ. I upgraded from all season tires to all terrain tires. That in itself increased the payload 400# as per order sheet. That is with a sticker of 65 psi in the tires. If I increase pressure to 80, then it effectively raises the payload more. The sticker only lists payload as delivered and means nothing as far as load capabilities if items are changed. Axle capacity and tire capacity are what matter. 

 

It may depend on where you reside, as we can make any changes to the truck, but the legal limits remain based on what is on the door sticker. If we are pulled over by the RCMP or commercial inspectors they couldn't care what changes were made to the tires, etc they only go by the actual weight of each axle and total vehicle weight, comparing to what is posted on the door sticker. Same with our insurance, if we exceed the limits on the door sticker, we provide the insurance company an opportunity to deny any claim, as if we exceed any of the limits on the sticker, we wouldn't be road legal.

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All of your points and info is what I’ve been considering. I’ve been looking for another 5th wheel that fits closer into the weight limits. With that said, I know there’s a safety factor built into all ratings, so if I’m 10% or so over the limit, I can live with that. I can also load my contents to help balance the load. I appreciate your input. It helps. 

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The GVWR is dictated by registration purposes. This is why many northern states have the " payload downgrade " package in which you can get an F350 with a 10k GVWR. This is just for regitration! If you stay within the RAWR or RAGVWR then you will be fine! Ensure that the tires you have can support the weight though!

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1 hour ago, YIllbs said:

The GVWR is dictated by registration purposes. This is why many northern states have the " payload downgrade " package in which you can get an F350 with a 10k GVWR. This is just for regitration! If you stay within the RAWR or RAGVWR then you will be fine! Ensure that the tires you have can support the weight though!

Great info! Thanks!

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  • 3 weeks later...

Ok...this.

 

I built this truck with payload in mind.

 

Starting at 4400

 

The wife, kids dog and I....-450lbs(ish)

 

Crap loaded in the truck (above, below, behind the seats) -100lbs

Tool box and all the crap in it -300lbs

Aux fuel tank -100lbs

Fuel in aux tank (6lbs per gallon x 51 gallons) -300lbs

Fifth wheel hitch -150lbs.

 

Now add up all that and my 4400 drops to a sad...3050

 

If you start with 2500...well, don't load too much on truck..IT ADDS UP FAST AS YOU CAN SEE!

 

My truck max towing 5th/goose is 20k and 15k on reese hitch...with my cargo rating I can handle those weights to the max with hauling equipment or a 5th wheel camper (and 5k more on the goose if no one is looking?)

 

Now some guys go out and buy a f250/f350 with the high capacity tow package(250) to be able to drag 25k down the road and only have a 2500 cargo ...many are hauling a flatbed goose trailer that they balance the load as needed ....

 

A 15/20/25K gooseneck trailer load of steel, pipe, concrete is much different to tow then the equivalent weight 5th wheel camper.

 

You can change your pinweight on the gooseneck by shifting the load so your trailer and trailer load weight may be 25k and still only have a pinweight of 2000lbs, (or 1500 or 2500) if you haul enough you know where your "happy spot is on pinweight .

 

now...You can "kinda" adjust it a bit on the 5th wheel but not by much...put your stuff in the back to lighten pin weight but then you are changing the dynamics of your tow in a very bad way! (Ask me how I know! LOL)

 

Hate to say it but you bought the wrong truck for the trailer you want to tow.

20211115_230326.jpg

Edited by IUEC135ELEVATOR
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  • 2 weeks later...

How many SDs you see out there that have obvious issues, occurring simultaneously, with:

 

-frame deflection

-transmission

-suspension

-fuel

-loose parts

 

The same SDs are likely used by owners that pay no attention or care to towing dynamics. Not to mention the average owner is not a structural or mechanical engineer (and even some of them are clueless number crunchers without application). I abhor the fact that people on these forums don’t accept Ford’s (or any manufacturer) numbers on the sticker and think it’s okay to tow over the limit. Can you sit your 200lb body on your child’s $800 play-mate swing set without the bolts loosening? What about that crib of theirs, can you sit in it and jump in it without expecting the wooden cross members to snap? 
 

It’s the same for any vehicle. How many times have you seen a sedan sagging on the road because 3 heavy set people are in the back and whatever luggage is in the trunk? All you do is amplify the issue when you get into big numbers. You know how many RV salesmen will tell you your F250 can pull anything? Most of them trying to sell you a camper.
 

Guess who won’t be there at the shop when your transmission has metal shavings in it and your rear axle’s cross-sectional tube geometry is no longer circular but now oval? Plus your frame is deformed and your 3” lift looks terrible, and then you start posting on threads and Facebook, “What could it be? My CP4 went out, I only tow part of the time, but mostly daily this sucker 18’ F250 6.7L CCSB … PFA”

 

… the guy that sold you the RV, or the guy who told you “you should be fine, I do it all the time no issues” hauling/towing over the vehicles limits… well he won’t be there. But guess what, you’ll be there… with a broken truck not worth it’s rebuilt title, screaming that it’s Ford’s fault and fighting for a warranty claim. 

 

Judging by the Ford SD owner community, there are A LOT of owners who are clueless about legal, lawful, and safe hauling/towing practices. Plus, not all owners are honest. Which why (I’m guessing) most of these CP4, transmission, and engine issues occur so frequently, and then some recalls eventually manifest - I’m not kidding about the oval shaped axle; Ford actually had a recall on some 20-21MYs and the solution was welding the frame to the axle ? who bore the costs of senseless owners there? Ford.
 

Ever stop to wonder why Ford is moving toward these onboard scales? ?

 

Better to do the math and educate yourself first before buying an undersized truck to do the job.

 
Edited by nswan
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