ANTAUS Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 Autoblog.com 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted May 4, 2023 Share Posted May 4, 2023 I’ll bet if you purchased a MachE before this price cut you aren’t too happy. I wouldn’t be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 4, 2023 Share Posted May 4, 2023 8 hours ago, tbone said: I’ll bet if you purchased a MachE before this price cut you aren’t too happy. I wouldn’t be. Given the place we are at with BEVs technologically, I think the safest bet is just lease for now. We are another 5 years or so before battery/recharging tech improvements will start slowing down or become more affordable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted May 4, 2023 Share Posted May 4, 2023 Given where we are with Texas grid, I’m more concerned with what happens over next 5 months than 5 years. In news last night ERCOT stated that for first time data shows peak demand for electricity this summer will exceed amount they can generate from on-demand dispatchable power; which they consider capacity with on-off switch they can control, like coal, nuclear, and natural gas. Non-dispatchable includes solar and wind. Texas has a lot of wind capacity, but ERCOT is predicting that during low-wind periods in evenings, conservation measures will be required. Report also stated that between 2008 and 2022, Texas only added 1.5% dispatchable power capacity, while population increased by 24% during same period. Regardless of how we get there, the more BEVs we have in Texas the worse grid problems will become in my opinion. If we have rolling blackouts this summer, I personally expect anger and backlash against ERCOT, but some may be directed at BEVs also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainp4 Posted May 4, 2023 Share Posted May 4, 2023 Is there some big ramp in production they're expecting? Why drop the price if you can't build enough as is? The division's margins are already negative.... I know they want to try to keep up with or get closer to Tesla, but this seems like a premature move to me, unless they're expecting some other breakthrough (or maybe I missed something) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Captainp4 said: Is there some big ramp in production they're expecting? Why drop the price if you can't build enough as is? The division's margins are already negative.... I know they want to try to keep up with or get closer to Tesla, but this seems like a premature move to me, unless they're expecting some other breakthrough (or maybe I missed something) Yes, Ford is ramping up production of Mustang Mach-E starting in the next few months. Here is the press release. Ford Re-Opens Orders for Mustang Mach-E Targeting Higher EPA Est. Range, BlueCruise 1.2 Hands-Free Tech, Lower Pricing | Ford Media Center Quote DEARBORN, Mich., May 2, 2023 – Ford is re-opening its order banks for the all-electric Mustang Mach-E on Wednesday as completed plant upgrades support production ramp in the second half of 2023, with feature improvements on the way – including increased range for standard range battery models to a targeted EPA-estimated range of 250 miles for RWD and 226 miles for eAWD. Ford seems to be genuinely committed to continuous improvement for Mustang Mach-E, making an award-winning product even better while keeping pricing stable or even lower over time. The company seems to be willing to forego some short-term profitability in order to cultivate a good reputation for the Model e division in the long run. That's a very intelligent business strategy because within the next decade, Model e and Pro divisions will define Ford Motor Company overall. Plus, for Ford sheeple like me, a reversal from the traditional Ford practice of de-contenting and price increases is great news. ? Edited May 5, 2023 by rperez817 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 14 hours ago, rperez817 said: Plus, for Ford sheeple like me, a reversal from the traditional Ford practice of de-contenting and price increases is great news. ? Yeah, humor aside, you know these price changes are driven by competition and market forces, not by the goodness of their heart. Anyway, upgrading charging rate to achieve 10 to 80 percent in 33 minutes for standard range MachE is a step in right direction. That’s about 320 MPH, if my estimate is correct, which isn’t bad but still much slower than some competitors in same price range. Just saying there’s more room for improvement. Another plus is being able to routinely charge to 100% at home due to lithium iron phosphate battery which increases effective daily range. Personally, I would like to see Ford offer a de-contented and de-sized (if there is such a word) auto as a means to get prices down. As an example, I can afford to spend more for a BEV but won’t because it doesn’t add enough value to me. A small efficient low-cost BEV to drive mostly within 50 miles of home is about as far as I’m willing to commit to for now, with safety being the main concern. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 3 hours ago, Rick73 said: Yeah, humor aside, you know these price changes are driven by competition and market forces, not by the goodness of their heart. Don’t chastise businesses for making max profit unless you’re willing to turn down your next pay raise “out of the goodness of your heart”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 33 minutes ago, akirby said: Don’t chastise businesses for making max profit unless you’re willing to turn down your next pay raise “out of the goodness of your heart”. Never would.. Within reason I’m 100% behind free markets. Exceptions are when stores sell toilet paper at $5 a roll, but otherwise supply and demand should for the most part control prices. In case of MachE lowered prices, I think demand at current prices isn’t high enough to meet Ford plans, and it appears important to Ford to sell more units, even if they lose more per unit. If true Ford is already losing $60K per BEV, what’s another $3~$4K per unit in order to get electrification going? It’s not just Ford struggling with BEV sales based on what I’ve read recently. Market is softening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Rick73 said: In case of MachE lowered prices, I think demand at current prices isn’t high enough to meet Ford plans, and it appears important to Ford to sell more units, even if they lose more per unit. With Ford's BEV, the constraints have been on the supply side. Demand remains extremely high, far in excess of what Ford has been able to produce thus far. The revamp of CSAP over the past few months to increase Mustang Mach-E production capacity should address the constraints for that model soon. At first, Ford's price cuts for Mustang Mach-E combined with feature enhancements seem to be incompatible with the supply-demand dynamics for that product. But to the point you made earlier, Ford is doing these things not from "the goodness of their heart", but "market forces". In particular, Ford needs to cultivate and maintain the good reputation it developed for Mustang Mach-E for it to remain competitive over time. The situation with Mustang Mach-E contrasts with Ford's recent announcement of price increases for S650 Mustang GT and Black Horse Coupe and Convertible, without product enhancements to those models. Looks like Ford is trying to grab as much money as it can on this warmed over and ultimately obsolete product. 2024 Ford Mustangs With V8s Get Price Bump Before Arriving on Dealer Lots (jalopnik.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 48 minutes ago, rperez817 said: With Ford's BEV, the constraints have been on the supply side. Demand remains extremely high, far in excess of what Ford has been able to produce thus far. There are dozens of reports showing that all is not well. Individuals can read as much as possible and then try to separate reality from spin. Also, the fact that Ford has or has had capacity constraints in itself doesn’t preclude lower demand versus previous expectations. Both can be true. The apparent demand problem is not limited to Ford or US. Other markets are affected as well. Expected conversion by 2030 is now much lower than previously estimated according to survey of auto industry executives. As covered by Reuters, Farley is having to make some very tough choices. And yes, I know it goes with job. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-ceo-says-price-cuts-ev-market-a-worrying-trend-2023-05-03/ Comparison to Ford’s price war in 1913 and how it put auto maker at risk is interesting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 4 hours ago, Rick73 said: In case of MachE lowered prices, I think demand at current prices isn’t high enough to meet Ford plans, and it appears important to Ford to sell more units, even if they lose more per unit. If true Ford is already losing $60K per BEV, what’s another $3~$4K per unit in order to get electrification going? Well of course they’re boosting volume by lowering prices, why else would they do it? They’re not losing $60k gross on each vehicle - that’s just the math when you factor in the blue oval city investments and other costs that aren’t yet producing revenue. They might be losing money on actual Mach-E production though. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying68 Posted May 6, 2023 Share Posted May 6, 2023 16 hours ago, akirby said: They’re not losing $60k gross on each vehicle - that’s just the math when you factor in the blue oval city investments and other costs that aren’t yet producing revenue. They might be losing money on actual Mach-E production though. This! The main reason for separating out EV's from ICE and commercial is the significant investment required for EV. Made the whole company look bad together, but when split out investors can see 10% operating margins in other parts of the business and can weigh the EV margins more in line with pure EV companies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted May 6, 2023 Share Posted May 6, 2023 (edited) 19 hours ago, Rick73 said: As covered by Reuters, Farley is having to make some very tough choices. And yes, I know it goes with job. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-ceo-says-price-cuts-ev-market-a-worrying-trend-2023-05-03/ Comparison to Ford’s price war in 1913 and how it put auto maker at risk is interesting. Thanks for that Reuters article Rick73. "Tough" is an understatement when it comes to the choices Jim Farley has to make as Ford CEO amid the ongoing automotive industry revolution. Sounds like Farley is trying to achieve a balance of achieving competitive pricing and appealing product for consumers along with profitability for the company, and not repeating the mistakes that Henry Ford made in the early 20th century. Learning from the past while staying focused on the future is a hallmark of a good businessman, which of course Farley is. The Elon Musk quote in the article is noteworthy. Quote "Always tough with margins for new vehicle lines, especially when there are major technology shifts," Musk wrote on Twitter. "I think Ford’s overall strategy with EVs is smart. The electric F-150 (Lightning) has high demand." Musk is correct on all counts. While both Mustang Mach-E and F-150 Lightning are new, award-winning products with extremely high demand, Mach-E occupies a segment with many more competitors versus the segment that Lightning is in. Additionally, Mach-E has been marketed for a longer period of time. So Ford's price cuts for Mach-E and price increases for F-150 Lightning both make sense. Edited May 6, 2023 by rperez817 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted May 8, 2023 Share Posted May 8, 2023 On 5/5/2023 at 4:31 PM, rperez817 said: With Ford's BEV, the constraints have been on the supply side. Demand remains extremely high, far in excess of what Ford has been able to produce thus far. The revamp of CSAP over the past few months to increase Mustang Mach-E production capacity should address the constraints for that model soon. At first, Ford's price cuts for Mustang Mach-E combined with feature enhancements seem to be incompatible with the supply-demand dynamics for that product. But to the point you made earlier, Ford is doing these things not from "the goodness of their heart", but "market forces". In particular, Ford needs to cultivate and maintain the good reputation it developed for Mustang Mach-E for it to remain competitive over time. The situation with Mustang Mach-E contrasts with Ford's recent announcement of price increases for S650 Mustang GT and Black Horse Coupe and Convertible, without product enhancements to those models. Looks like Ford is trying to grab as much money as it can on this warmed over and ultimately obsolete product. 2024 Ford Mustangs With V8s Get Price Bump Before Arriving on Dealer Lots (jalopnik.com) Do you even read the articles? The price bump is because they get hit with a gas guzzler tax. Not just because Ford has decided it wants to bump it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted May 8, 2023 Share Posted May 8, 2023 42 minutes ago, rmc523 said: Do you even read the articles? The price bump is because they get hit with a gas guzzler tax. Not just because Ford has decided it wants to bump it up. The Motor Authority article stated the following. A Ford spokesman told Motor Authority the latest price increases are due to a gas guzzler tax and a readjustment for increased demand. "Readjustment for increased demand" in this case is synonymous with "Ford has decided it wants to bump it up". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 8, 2023 Share Posted May 8, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, rperez817 said: "Readjustment for increased demand" in this case is synonymous with "Ford has decided it wants to bump it up". Why would they do that when the increases are roughly what the fine is for a gas guzzler tax? The "strong demand" is driving the CAFE to go down. Edited May 8, 2023 by silvrsvt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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