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2025 Expedition Spied


rmc523

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5 hours ago, tbone said:

Sorry, throwing some 24’s, a new grill, and interior on the Expedition isn’t going to move the needle in this segment.  Im a firm believer that all sheet metal has to change to get people’s attention.  


I don’t understand this mindset of needing wholesale changes if the current vehicle is well executed.  You need to make it different enough to appeal to repeat buyers but different sheet metal isn’t going to move the needle any more than the current one.

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If it looks nice, drives nice, gives things the people want, and priced competently, it'll sell more.

 

Things I've noticed:

 

-there's something shiny behind the 24in rear wheels that's not the brakes.  Looks too shiny to be coils.

 

-doesn't seem to have digital rearview mirror still.

 

-bluecruise sensor is moved to the steering column and looks larger.

 

-the max edition looks slightly longer than the current gen.

Edited by Dlcorbett
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14 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


And? 

 

Every vehicle in this class offers it, even the old ass armada, so why not add it. You were patting yourself on the back about offering it on a cargo van a couple of years ago, and saying your going to add it to your customer retail vehicles. Still waiting.  And using it in other vehicles, I quite like the feature.

 

It looks like it's getting the extra long one piece screen that stretches to the passenger side as well.

 

I like how thick the steering wheel looks.

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5 minutes ago, Dlcorbett said:

Every vehicle in this class offers it, even the old ass armada, so why not add it. 


Because it adds cost for absolutely zero net benefit. It’s a perfect example of not changing what isn’t broken. Nothing wrong with an old fashioned mirror. 

 

5 minutes ago, Dlcorbett said:

 

 You were patting yourself on the back about offering it on a cargo van a couple of years ago


Because that’s actually useful when most cargo vans don’t have rear windows. I would have like it when I drove cargo vans for a living, but I can also admit that not having a rear view mirror/camera really in the end wasn’t a big deal since you still have side mirrors. 

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1 hour ago, akirby said:


 I don’t understand this mindset of needing wholesale changes if the current vehicle is well executed.  You need to make it different enough to appeal to repeat buyers but different sheet metal isn’t going to move the needle any more than the current one.

 

Exactly what Ford seemingly said about the Fusion mid cycle refresh in the teens. How did that turn out?

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1 hour ago, Dlcorbett said:

If it looks nice, drives nice, gives things the people want, and priced competently, it'll sell more.

 

Things I've noticed:

 

-there's something shiny behind the 24in rear wheels that's not the brakes.  Looks too shiny to be coils.

 

-doesn't seem to have digital rearview mirror still.

 

-bluecruise sensor is moved to the steering column and looks larger.

 

-the max edition looks slightly longer than the current gen.

I also think they should offer the digital rearview mirror, at least in the Navi because most of it's competitors have it.

Both the Escalade and the Suburban are longer that the current gens Navi L/Expy Max (about 4 in) so I think the next gen have to be grow a bit

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Yea if it's broke don't fix it is a true statement, but the customer base doesn't want that, they want a competitive vehicle.  Case in point, the rear wiper.  The wiper under the spoiler is a Toyota invention, but noone cared until the new GMs.  After they came out, the customer base was been highly vocal about the 22 refresh not getting it.  Now, the remodel is getting it.  Nothing wrong with how the wiper was integrated and how it performed before,  the base was upset a main competitor had something their beloved vehicle didn't.  Now, the whispers of not having a heads up display and air suspension are becoming louder.  Same for the digital rearview mirror.  Like Jose stated, not just the nav, but every fs suv mainstream and luxury variant has it except the fords.

 

For me, I like driving people around, and it being digital is def nice to have to prevent vision obscurity from peoples heads.  My dads escalade has it and it has better night vision than a regular mirror as well.  And of course, it helps when your cargo bay is filled with bags or furniture runs.

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3 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Exactly what Ford seemingly said about the Fusion mid cycle refresh in the teens. How did that turn out?


I said it needs to be different enough to attract repeat buyers.  New grilles, new interior, sync 4 and new packages accomplishes that.  The Fusion refresh OTOH was so subtle the avg buyer didnt see a difference,

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dlcorbett said:

Yea if it's broke don't fix it is a true statement, but the customer base doesn't want that, they want a competitive vehicle.  Case in point, the rear wiper.  The wiper under the spoiler is a Toyota invention, but noone cared until the new GMs.  After they came out, the customer base was been highly vocal about the 22 refresh not getting it.  Now, the remodel is getting it.  Nothing wrong with how the wiper was integrated and how it performed before,  the base was upset a main competitor had something their beloved vehicle didn't.  Now, the whispers of not having a heads up display and air suspension are becoming louder.  Same for the digital rearview mirror.  Like Jose stated, not just the nav, but every fs suv mainstream and luxury variant has it except the fords.

 

For me, I like driving people around, and it being digital is def nice to have to prevent vision obscurity from peoples heads.  My dads escalade has it and it has better night vision than a regular mirror as well.  And of course, it helps when your cargo bay is filled with bags or furniture runs.


I’ve heard it causes problems with vision impaired drivers because a mirror image is still far away whereas a camera image is close up.  So looking forward is fine but glancing at the mirror it’s blurry.   But yes it helps a lot with passengers and cargo blocking the view.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, akirby said:

  But yes it helps a lot with passengers and cargo blocking the view.


That’s what the side mirrors are for…. 
 

Maybe it’s just my years of experience driving work vans with no rear window but I find the rear view mirror to be completely unnecessary. 

Edited by fuzzymoomoo
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I also noticed, the front end looks a lot more upright and blunt than the current model.

 

However, it also looks like ford is keep the reflective style head lights instead or projectors.  And if no projectors, seems like no adaptive head lights either.

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53 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


That’s what the side mirrors are for…. 
 

Maybe it’s just my years of experience driving work vans with no rear window but I find the rear view mirror to be completely unnecessary. 


I know I used to drive a cube van in college.  But I keep my side mirrors adjusted to my blind spot not so I can see behind me.

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13 hours ago, akirby said:


I don’t understand this mindset of needing wholesale changes if the current vehicle is well executed.  You need to make it different enough to appeal to repeat buyers but different sheet metal isn’t going to move the needle any more than the current one.


If they want to carry-on with the existing drivetrain and underpinnings, I understand, because they are well executed.  But if they stick with that same crease, that is just below the beltline of the vehicle, it’s going to look like a 2018 with a new grill.  As a potential buyer, that is a non-starter for me. 

 

If Ford wanted to pull a Toyota and throw a new top hat only, that may be an acceptable strategy, because the vehicle would at least look like a completely new model, yet it has good guts.  

 

This situation strikes me as the potential for another Fusion moment as others have mentioned. Hopefully these are just test models, and are not indicative of what is to come. 
 

GM seems to manage to come out with a completely new body style every five to six years,  so I’m unclear why Ford cannot manage to do the same.  GM has a dedicated plant to these SUVs because they sell the crap out of them.  They keep them fresh and they are good looking vehicles, well maybe with the exception of the Escalade, and IMO, this is the reason they are #1 in this segment.  

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20 minutes ago, akirby said:

So they change the front, rear and interior but because they kept the same body line it’s a failure?  Ok


It’s a failure with me, a potential buyer who buys two new vehicles approximately every three years. I will not consider it if it does not look completely new.  We will be way past the mid cycle refresh date at that point.   
 

Will they sell them, of course, but I don’t believe they will challenge the market leader. They won’t continue to build off the successful relaunch of the Expedition, IMO.  If they are content with the status quo sales wise, I suppose you could say that is a success for them.  Im just not sure why you want to follow the likes of the Armada/QX market participants instead of the market leaders.  
 

If I recall correctly, you and I have debated this subject matter as related to the Fusion, so it is likely we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.  

 

Edited by tbone
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What happened with the fusions?  I don't remember any disasters with the fusions?

 

The gms can completely revamp their suvs every 6 yrs because they make so much money on them.  Also, they seldom do refreshes on them, so that's more money being dedicated to new r&d for replacement.  The upcoming 2024s are the first time gm is doing a refresh on their fs suvs, which honestly is a kudos to ford (and jeep).  Being honest, the 21s are the first time gm tried with their fs suvs, and they had a good base to start with.  Iirc, they were supposed to drop in 2020, but the 18 fords were so good, the team had to beg management for more time and changes for it.

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6 hours ago, tbone said:


It’s a failure with me, a potential buyer who buys two new vehicles approximately every three years. I will not consider it if it does not look completely new.  We will be way past the mid cycle refresh date at that point.   
 

Will they sell them, of course, but I don’t believe they will challenge the market leader. They won’t continue to build off the successful relaunch of the Expedition, IMO.  If they are content with the status quo sales wise, I suppose you could say that is a success for them.  Im just not sure why you want to follow the likes of the Armada/QX market participants instead of the market leaders.  
 

If I recall correctly, you and I have debated this subject matter as related to the Fusion, so it is likely we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.  

 


I completely agreed that the Fusion “refresh” was a flop because it looked like the same vehicle inside and out.  Having a different front and rear already goes 1000% further than Fusion and add in a new interior and 80% of what you see and feel will be different.  Totally different situation.

 

I think you’re just fixated on that body line and digital rear view mirror and ignoring the other changes.

 

I also don’t think more changes would sell more vehicles.  GM was #1 for a long time thanks to Suburban’s headstart even when they had the worst interiors ever.  

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49 minutes ago, Dlcorbett said:

What happened with the fusions?  I don't remember any disasters with the fusions?


The 2017 ish “refresh” supposedly made numerous changes but if you put a 2013 and 2020 side by side 9 out of 10 wouldn’t notice any difference.

 

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/ford/fusion/2013/photos-exterior/angular-front


https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/ford/fusion/2020/photos-exterior/angular-front

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37 minutes ago, akirby said:


The 2017 ish “refresh” supposedly made numerous changes but if you put a 2013 and 2020 side by side 9 out of 10 wouldn’t notice any difference.

 

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/ford/fusion/2013/photos-exterior/angular-front


https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/ford/fusion/2020/photos-exterior/angular-front

 

And for some of us it's a reminder of those days when a model "refesh" wasn't a factor because the "next generation" was introduced every 3 years, like clockwork. There was no mistaking the next generation model that was distinctive enough to attract both attention and new or repeat buyers yet retained enough styling cues from the model's history to be instantly recognizable. And along with the 3-year redesign cycle, all the introductions occurred in the fall, before rising costs forced the OEM's to lengthen the product life to what's now an average of 6-8 years. 

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8 hours ago, akirby said:

I think you’re just fixated on that body line and digital rear view mirror and ignoring the other changes.

 

I also don’t think more changes would sell more vehicles.  GM was #1 for a long time…


I do fixate on the character line on the side profile of the vehicle because it’s a defining characteristic for what is a slab sided vehicle.  That line will have been in place for neatly seven years by the time the 2025s roll off the line.  If they don’t change that line or change the beltline of the vehicle it will continue to look the same to me.  
 

I do think additional changes could sell more of these vehicles.  The price point of these vehicles is in the middle to high income earners that aren’t as impacted by economic conditions.  If you want to sell more than GM you have to draw attention and be better.  They may not catch them because they have such a head start but I want the to try.  I would argue Ford did this to the Expedition in the past when they left them unchanged for long periods of time, and I don’t want them to do it again.
 

I won’t repeatedly buy a vehicle if it doesn’t change because I get bored with them.  Refreshes are one thing, but a new model has to be different in my eyes. 
 

I’ll let this rest now.  
 

BTW, the digital mirror wasn’t my deal.  
 

 

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2 hours ago, Dlcorbett said:

O I c...i.like both the pre and post refresh of the fusion, it's a shame ford let it go again.  It was highly competitive and felt more than what it cost.


Unfortunately it cost Ford a lot more than it should.  It was a premium platform but ended up in price competition with cheap Camrys and Altimas.  I still think it’s one of the best looking sedans compared to everything else then and now.  But if you want repeat buyers especially leases you have to give them something different every 3 years or so.

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