Ford, the recall king?

[joseodiaga4]

Ford Has Recalled More Cars In 2024 Than GM, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, VW And BMW Combined

Almost 3.7 million Ford vehicles have been caught up in 31 recalls and we’re only half way through the year

Ford’s big rival, GM, has only recalled 655,867 vehicles in 2024

 

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/07/ford-has-recalled-more-cars-in-2024-than-gm-honda-toyota-nissan-vw-and-bmw-combined/

 

[Joe771476]

Something's wrong. Sounds like sabotage to me.

[7Mary3]

Something's wrong allright.  Management is focused on things other than the manufacture of vehicles, poor quality vendor supplied parts, goofy engineering.  Can't lay this on the assembly line people.  Maybe the situation is improving?  Hopefully.  Check back next year.  Until then no new Fords for me.  Not buying any stock either.

 

Who do you think is sabotaging the company?  Farley?

[DeluxeStang]

On 7/20/2024 at 6:04 AM, Joe771476 said:

Something's wrong. Sounds like sabotage to me.

The simplest answer is usually the right one. We know there are a lot of hard working, decent people at Ford factories, many of them are in this site. They're very open about the fact that a lot of the people they work with frankly don't give a shit. They just aren't invested in their work, they know even if they half ass it, or put no real effort in, the UAW will still protect them. People building products with thousands of parts who don't care about the work they're doing are gonna produce less than stellar results. 

 

Some people care, some people don't. But when you're making a very complex product, those people who don't care are really gonna drag the rest of the team down. We all know how bad those group school projects were with team members who didn't do their part. Now imagine you're building a car, and not just making some presentation. 

[akirby]

Most of Ford’s problems are engineering or supplier issues.  Serious assembly issues are rare.

[Sherminator98]

19 hours ago, akirby said:

Most of Ford’s problems are engineering or supplier issues.  Serious assembly issues are rare.

 

The biggest assembly issue I can think of that Ford has had is with attaching windshields, that that boils down to people not checking their equipment properly. 

[rmc523]

I think most of the issues stem to them tightening the screws too hard on suppliers, which affected part quality, and therefore vehicle quality.

[akirby]

25 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

I think most of the issues stem to them tightening the screws too hard on suppliers, which affected part quality, and therefore vehicle quality.

A lot, yes.  But the bigger issues like coolant intrusion and other powertrain issues were self inflicted.

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

A lot, yes.  But the bigger issues like coolant intrusion and other powertrain issues were self inflicted.

So, how do engineers not catch these sort of things in testing? How do engineers miss things like maverick CV axle issues? Or coolant intrusion? Or transmission issues?

 

They boast about how they do insane amounts of testing, and development, and miss the most obvious things. Either they're lying, or something is fundamentally flawed with their testing procedures. 

[Flying68]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

So, how do engineers not catch these sort of things in testing? How do engineers miss things like maverick CV axle issues? Or coolant intrusion? Or transmission issues?

 

They boast about how they do insane amounts of testing, and development, and miss the most obvious things. Either they're lying, or something is fundamentally flawed with their testing procedures. 

Lab testing, development testing, and real world user testing are not the same.  Laboratory testing is usually with one-off hardware and is mostly used for POC validation, rapid lifetime testing, etc..  Development testing on a vehicle is usually with pre-production hardware or low rate production hardware.  This tests function and durability but can't replicate real world use, no matter how hard you try.  Once hardware enters production, any number of changes can happen to the actual pieces and parts, whether it be material or process changes, machine changes, or small design changes.  With supplier parts, suppliers can often make what they think is a minor change that doesn't affect fit or function but can have disastrous effects on durability and life.  Other times it is just the shear abuse that the masses of people put products through.  It can also be a minor production change that changes the installation process.

 

That is how engineers miss things.  It isn't incompetence most of the time, although that can happen.  Biggest reasons for quality problems that aren't production related or supplier changes is that the part was designed on the edge of reliability to save cost or to gain some performance benefit and the in-house development testing didn't show a failure.

[akirby]

3 hours ago, Flying68 said:

Lab testing, development testing, and real world user testing are not the same.  Laboratory testing is usually with one-off hardware and is mostly used for POC validation, rapid lifetime testing, etc..  Development testing on a vehicle is usually with pre-production hardware or low rate production hardware.  This tests function and durability but can't replicate real world use, no matter how hard you try.  Once hardware enters production, any number of changes can happen to the actual pieces and parts, whether it be material or process changes, machine changes, or small design changes.  With supplier parts, suppliers can often make what they think is a minor change that doesn't affect fit or function but can have disastrous effects on durability and life.  Other times it is just the shear abuse that the masses of people put products through.  It can also be a minor production change that changes the installation process.

 

That is how engineers miss things.  It isn't incompetence most of the time, although that can happen.  Biggest reasons for quality problems that aren't production related or supplier changes is that the part was designed on the edge of reliability to save cost or to gain some performance benefit and the in-house development testing didn't show a failure.

In the case of the focus DCT it was a mgt decision that overrode the engineers.  I remember the 2000 Lincoln LS had a rash of failed window regulators mostly on the back windows.  Apparently the window track material was changed late in the program and it worked fine under  normal testing.  But in the real world where rear windows stay unopened for days or weeks in hot weather, the new material stuck to the window putting strain on the regulator.  Driver’s window almost never failed because it was opened frequently.  Not something a lab test or wear yeast would ever find.

 

As you say sometimes it’s stacking of design tolerances.  I heard that was the issue with early PTUs where gears ended up being too tight and generating too much heat.   
 

And I think you’re right about trying to design to a price point with no margin for error.

[7Mary3]

7 hours ago, akirby said:

.......I heard that was the issue with early PTUs where gears ended up being too tight and generating too much heat......

 

The PTU's didn't have enough oil in them, there was no practical way to change the oil in the PTU on the vehicle, and the catalytic converter was mounted so close to the PTC it would 'cook' the oil in it.      

[Footballfan]

Ford is certainly becoming the decontenting king as well.  

[twintornados]

Some of the recalls for minor issues. My 2021 Bronco was "recalled" to replace the tire placard sticker as it was incorrectly labeled. Not so much a recall and more of a Homer Simpson style "D'Oh!!"

[akirby]

39 minutes ago, twintornados said:

Some of the recalls for minor issues. My 2021 Bronco was "recalled" to replace the tire placard sticker as it was incorrectly labeled. Not so much a recall and more of a Homer Simpson style "D'Oh!!"

We’ve mentioned before that Ford is being far more proactive than other mfrs in issuing recalls for minor issues.  But there are still far too many serious recalls and non recall issues happening.

[morgan20]

47 minutes ago, akirby said:

We’ve mentioned before that Ford is being far more proactive than other mfrs in issuing recalls for minor issues.

 

Not true

[akirby]

36 minutes ago, morgan20 said:

 

Not true

I’ve seen it and we’ve discussed it here.

[morgan20]

27 minutes ago, akirby said:

I’ve seen it and we’ve discussed it here.

 

NHTSA says that "a recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards". So seemingly minor issues aren't minor if a recall is involved

[akirby]

8 minutes ago, morgan20 said:

 

NHTSA says that "a recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards". So seemingly minor issues aren't minor if a recall is involved

Minor as in only affecting a small number of vehicles or something that isn’t a direct and immediate safety risk such as a tire placard or checking torque on a bolt that might not be tight.  These are things that could easily be corrected without a formal recall via a customer service program or silently by the dealer which is what a lot of mfrs do.  They only do a recall when forced by the NHTSA.  Honda was notorious for “silent recalls” having dealers fix things quietly without even telling the customers.   Ford does more of them voluntarily.

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, twintornados said:

Some of the recalls for minor issues. My 2021 Bronco was "recalled" to replace the tire placard sticker as it was incorrectly labeled. Not so much a recall and more of a Homer Simpson style "D'Oh!!"

My explorer was recalled to replace the clips on the roof rack covers. Meanwhile, Honda is in the corner whistling while civic engine blocks crack in half, and transmissions give out.

Edited July 23, 2024 by DeluxeStang

[rmc523]

2 hours ago, morgan20 said:

 

NHTSA says that "a recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards". So seemingly minor issues aren't minor if a recall is involved

 

I had a recall for my Bronco that consisted of adding some plastic clips on the seatbelt to keep the attachment point higher up on the pillar to make it more convenient to grab.

 

Not saying all of Ford's recalls are like that, but it can't be ignored that some percentage of them are for minor things like that.

[AM222]

Ford has many recalls, many are probably not safety related but still, having several safety recalls is not good. Here are the three recent safety recalls listed in Ford's website (from June and July 2024). Risk of crashes and a potential underhood fire.

2022—2023 Ford Mustang — Steering Wheel Oscillation Recall "This unintended steering assist could lead to loss of vehicle control while driving, increasing the risk of a crash."

2014 F-150 Trucks — 6R80 Transmission Sudden Downshift Recall "This can cause the rear tires to slide until the vehicle speed slows down and could result in a loss of vehicle control, increasing the risk of a crash."

2024 Mustang — Manual Transmission Clutch Pressure Line Recall "If the clutch pressure line is not properly installed and contacts hot exhaust components, this could result in a potential loss of power and/or underhood fire."

 

Edited July 26, 2024 by AM222

[akirby]

Nobody said or implied anything to the contrary.  Ford has way too many serious recalls and other issues.  But it’s a lower number than what is being reported.

[coupe3w]

I thought they had a new "quality guy" that was suppose turn this recall stuff around. Guess it's just the same old same old at Ford.

[mackinaw]

1 hour ago, coupe3w said:

I thought they had a new "quality guy" that was suppose turn this recall stuff around. Guess it's just the same old same old at Ford.

 

From the Detroit News.  What Ford is doing now.

 

Farley said Ford is now “testing vehicles to failure” and running them “at extremely high mileage” to discover quality problems before they reach customers. It will take as long as 18 months to see the benefits of that new process show up in lower warranty costs.

“It makes our quarters lumpy and it’s challenging, but it will reduce warranty (costs) over time,” Farley said.