Ford Aims To Beat Chinese Automakers With Small EVs Using Chinese Batteries

[jpd80]

4 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Perhaps, but isn't GE2 dead in the water to a degree? At least for the mustang, it seems like the logical choice is to develop an all new scalable architecture that can underpin everything from pure ICE, to hybrid and EVs, something the current platform can't do according to insiders. 

Now that GE2 has been delayed again, I suspect that it will be quietly killed and never spoken about 

CE1 vehicle development program has shown Ford a much better more efficient way to develop vehicles.

 

Maybe a skateboard BEV set up under S650 rather than develop a whole new vehicle?
something that might be able to built with the existing gas Mustang instead of dedicated plant.

 

[akirby]

15 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Good post.
And it’s the exact reason that Ford needs to pivot away from an over reliance on T3 mass roll out.

 

T3 is smaller than F150 and the platform itself will be lighter.  And if anyone is willing to pay a premium it’s truck buyers.  But you’re right that it probably won’t be super high volume like F150.  An EV Maverick is also needed which is probably on the board at the skunkworks.

[akirby]

15 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

I think the advance of battery technology will make that disparity a short term phenomena.  As soon as the gap in price between 'small' and 'large' EV batteries narrows, consumers will opt for larger vehicles with longer range even if they are still somewhat more expensive.  As I said it may be true short-term but I don't expect it to be the norm in the future.  Battery technology is advancing to fast.    

I think it will take longer for prices to come down that much.  First we’ll see more range, less weight and faster charging for the same or slightly lower cost.  It may take 10-20 years for the cost difference to be small enough.  But who knows it might happen sooner. 
 

The important thing is Ford knows that dynamic and can adjust their products accordingly.  

[fordmantpw]

15 hours ago, balthisar said:

While price is a concern and people complain about the Mustang moniker, as a Mach E customer on his second Mach E (my Rally arrived this week to replace my 2021 Premium), one of the things that I appreciate most is that it's essentially an conventional car that happens to have an electric powertrain.

 

While I don't have and would never have a Tesla product, I'm very acquainted with them due to various benchmarking activities that I participate in. If "EV" means "austere," then I don't want that type of EV, despite how many idiots are suckered into Elon's reality distortion field.

 

If you try to re-imagine an EV to a "Smart" car, then I don't want it. Make it a car that I'd like anyway as an ICE, and you've got a winner.

 

I love my Mach E. It doesn't do 100% of what I want out of a car, but there's not a car in existence that does. It's why I have, for example, a trailer tow vehicle and Home Depot runner and family road trip vehicle – it supplements the Mach E.

 

 

 

Yes, this!  We wouldn't have our Mach E if it was a tiny car.  We own the Mach E because it's a great vehicle made even better with the electric powertrain.

[Sherminator98]

I think People are looking into the "small" car comments a bit much, I'm pretty sure they aren't talking about an Ecosport sized vehicle-more like a C class product that is anywhere from 170-180 inches long and 74 inches wide. Given the sales of ICE C CUVs, that is where most sales are at and they fall into the goldilocks range of being not too small or not too big for EVs. 

[DeluxeStang]

14 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Now that GE2 has been delayed again, I suspect that it will be quietly killed and never spoken about 

CE1 vehicle development program has shown Ford a much better more efficient way to develop vehicles.

 

Maybe a skateboard BEV set up under S650 rather than develop a whole new vehicle?
something that might be able to built with the existing gas Mustang instead of dedicated plant.

 

I'll be curious to see how flexible CE1 is as a platform. While we know a maverick like truck and some sort of utility are the first things to use that platform. But I have a hard time believing it'll stop there. Perhaps CE1 could underpin things like a van, lifted wagon, or even a sports coupe, who knows. I just hope Ford has a vision for this platform that doesn't stop at a few products.

 

It doesn't sound like CE1 has a very high performance ceiling as it's being based on basically an economy car platform. But if they're able to change that, maybe it could be the basis for a next gen mach-e or mustang coupe EV. 

[Sherminator98]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

It doesn't sound like CE1 has a very high performance ceiling as it's being based on basically an economy car platform. But if they're able to change that, maybe it could be the basis for a next gen mach-e or mustang coupe EV. 

 

Define performance...the thing is people keep forgetting that Electric motors produce lots of torque and HP. The Model 3 RWD is roughly 275hp/275 ft torque, but that Torque hits after 1 RPM. The Model 3 Performance my brother in law has an insane launch-it pushes you into your seat like a ride at an Amusement park. I've owned "fast" cars but none of them really did that. 

[jpd80]

11 hours ago, akirby said:

T3 is smaller than F150 and the platform itself will be lighter.  And if anyone is willing to pay a premium it’s truck buyers.  But you’re right that it probably won’t be super high volume like F150.  An EV Maverick is also needed which is probably on the board at the skunkworks.

A bit of qualification there, T3 F150 is smaller in the sense of having a shorter hood, it’s lighter than the current Lightning and probably more like the proportions of the E Silverado. In that sense, a pickup and the companion Expedition will be much easier to execute..I think people will be quite surprised and pleased with the end result

but the big issue will be price as E Silverado starts at $74,000
 

Ford was hoping to use T3 for Midsized Ranger/Bronco but maybe a slightly enlarged CE1 gets the job done with

lower costs and easier manufacturing….it depends which ends up making more sense.

 

 

 

While details of CE1 compact BEVs are still rumours, it’s a safe bet that a Maverick sized pickup is a must, a Bronco Sport sized utility would be eagerly received, that leaves room for an electric van and perhaps a nice crossover?

In any regard, an affordable architecture gives Ford the freedom to at least consider a lot more complementary products that contribute by incremental sales instead of internal competition.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2024 by jpd80

[jpd80]

6 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Define performance...the thing is people keep forgetting that Electric motors produce lots of torque and HP. The Model 3 RWD is roughly 275hp/275 ft torque, but that Torque hits after 1 RPM. The Model 3 Performance my brother in law has an insane launch-it pushes you into your seat like a ride at an Amusement park. I've owned "fast" cars but none of them really did that. 

Good post.

I know it’s a completely different vehicle size but the coming E Puma shares its FWD motor and battery

with the E Transit courier, so I can imagine that 133 hp and +200lb ft through the front wheels should

feel like a strong V6 right off the mark. Bottom end torque is going to please buyers….

Edited July 27, 2024 by jpd80

[rmc523]

On 7/27/2024 at 12:24 PM, DeluxeStang said:

I'll be curious to see how flexible CE1 is as a platform. While we know a maverick like truck and some sort of utility are the first things to use that platform. But I have a hard time believing it'll stop there. Perhaps CE1 could underpin things like a van, lifted wagon, or even a sports coupe, who knows. I just hope Ford has a vision for this platform that doesn't stop at a few products.

 

It doesn't sound like CE1 has a very high performance ceiling as it's being based on basically an economy car platform. But if they're able to change that, maybe it could be the basis for a next gen mach-e or mustang coupe EV. 

 

I'd like to see Ford finally bring a platform to its full potential by allowing multiple top hats, so products can be optimized for each market, but getting the cost savings of a single platform.

[mackinaw]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

I'd like to see Ford finally bring a platform to its full potential by allowing multiple top hats, so products can be optimized for each market, but getting the cost savings of a single platform.

 

See this.  

 

https://www.drive.com.au/news/ford-patents-universal-car-platform/

[akirby]

2 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

I'd like to see Ford finally bring a platform to its full potential by allowing multiple top hats, so products can be optimized for each market, but getting the cost savings of a single platform.

C2 - Transit connect, Maverick, Bronco Sport, Escape, Corsair, Nautilus, Zephyr, Edge.

 

Is Evos in production in China or Europe or just a concept?

[rmc523]

6 minutes ago, akirby said:

C2 - Transit connect, Maverick, Bronco Sport, Escape, Corsair, Nautilus, Zephyr, Edge.

 

Is Evos in production in China or Europe or just a concept?

 

Evos has been around for a few years (they're changing the name to Mondeo because of low sales).

 

C2 is a good start (and what they should've been doing all along).  I'm just saying they need to utilize setups like that more, and take advantage of the opportunity of the flexibility it offers.

 

[akirby]

3 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

Evos has been around for a few years (they're changing the name to Mondeo because of low sales).

 

C2 is a good start (and what they should've been doing all along).  I'm just saying they need to utilize setups like that more, and take advantage of the opportunity of the flexibility it offers.

 

Absolutely.  

[DeluxeStang]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/electric-ford-fiesta-game-changing-affordable-ev-due-2026

 

Some interesting bits. I've very pleased that not just cost, but durability is a factor with these new CE1 EVs. I was very concerned that Ford was just gonna shit out some ugly, unreliable, but cheap products. But it sounds like CE1 are trying to be the holy trifecta, affordable, appealing, and high quality. If Ford can pull this off, my God, like, my God. 

 

I don't think a lot of the people reporting on this realize how truly impactful this platform could be long term. I'm not joking when I say if these products are well executed, they could play a crucial role in taking ford to heights never before seen in my lifetime. 

 

I think now is a good time to invest in Ford stock if you plan on holding for at least a few years, that's all I'll say. 

[Sherminator98]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/electric-ford-fiesta-game-changing-affordable-ev-due-2026

 

Some interesting bits. I've very pleased that not just cost, but durability is a factor with these new CE1 EVs. I was very concerned that Ford was just gonna shit out some ugly, unreliable, but cheap products. But it sounds like CE1 are trying to be the holy trifecta, affordable, appealing, and high quality. If Ford can pull this off, my God, like, my God. 

 

I don't think a lot of the people reporting on this realize how truly impactful this platform could be long term. I'm not joking when I say if these products are well executed, they could play a crucial role in taking ford to heights never before seen in my lifetime. 

 

I think now is a good time to invest in Ford stock if you plan on holding for at least a few years, that's all I'll say. 

 

The only issue is the Explorer EV is maybe the bare minimum small car that would be able to sell in the US at least.

The Fiesta was 160 inches long and roughly 73 inches with its mirrors. The Explorer EV is 175L and 73.6. The Bronco Sport is 173x74

I guess if they can make it fit that 160-180in in overall length, it will work. 

[Sherminator98]

Even more info 

 

https://fordauthority.com/2024/07/ford-ev-skunkworks-team-using-streamlined-development-process/

 

Quote

“We will own the entire electrical architecture. It’s a distributed electrical architecture. We’ll own the software on the modules, the systems integration between the vehicle and the digital architecture and then the experiences that come from that, the pace of development, and then the cost structure. We’re developing those vehicles to be competitive with a return at between $25,000 and $30,000. And the thing is we have people that have done that in the past and they’re doing it for us now.”

 

Edited July 29, 2024 by silvrsvt

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The only issue is the Explorer EV is maybe the bare minimum small car that would be able to sell in the US at least.

The Fiesta was 160 inches long and roughly 73 inches with its mirrors. The Explorer EV is 175L and 73.6. The Bronco Sport is 173x74

I guess if they can make it fit that 160-180in in overall length, it will work. 

It's basically a reversal of Ford's position from 5 years ago, back when they were all about jumping into massive utilities, and massive price tags. He made a valid point, at a lower price point, people don't really care about size as much. Most affordable cars are compact anyways. An EV with a 160-170 inch length probably wouldn't feel that much different in interior space than a gas powered car that's 175 inches or so. 

 

I think we're at peak car size, because we're basically at peak stuff/people. People used to need that expedition because they had 4 kids and a dog. Now people just have the dog, and maybe 1 kid. I think people are reconsidering waste, younger consumers especially. They seem to be sticking with sedans, coupes, and hatches a lot longer than generations past. If they do go for a utility, it'll probably be something like a bronco sport or rav 4. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2024 by DeluxeStang

[akirby]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

It's basically a reversal of Ford's position from 5 years ago, back when they were all about jumping into massive utilities, and massive price tags.

 

5 years ago the cheapest EV was $40k+ and the market was limited.  So why not maximize profits with more expensive vehicles.  Tesla wasn’t even turning a profit back then.   This is only possible due to cheaper batteries.

[jpd80]

Internally, rumour suggests that the two small EVs are due in 2027 (“pickup”) and 2028 (“Boxy SUV”)

If Ford is planning a slam dunk move with small electrics, then that seems rather measured and conservative.

If four vehicles or more are planned, it better deliver them in reasonable time or they risk being beaten to the punch.

 

I think Ford is  still hoping for high profits, suggesting that a premium pricing policy is still in play, I doubt that enough

buyers will play ball with that as evidenced by current situation with rising inventories.

Edited July 31, 2024 by jpd80

[Sherminator98]

14 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Internally, rumour suggests that the two small EVs are due in 2027 (“pickup”) and 2028 (“Boxy SUV”)

If Ford is planning a slam dunk move with small electrics, then that seems rather measured and conservative.

If four vehicles or more are planned, it better deliver them in reasonable time or they risk being beaten to the punch.

 

I think Ford is  still hoping for high profits, suggesting that a premium pricing policy is still in play, I doubt that enough

buyers will play ball with that as evidenced by current situation with rising inventories.

 

I think the play is going to be low end models with a small battery as entry level to meet the 30k price point with the actual stock being with longer range/larger battery that are closer to 40k 

[DeluxeStang]

15 hours ago, jpd80 said:

 

If four vehicles or more are planned, it better deliver them in reasonable time or they risk being beaten to the punch.

Do many people know what those additional affordable EVs will be? The ones outside of a utility and truck? Lots of news sources are speculating global ev versions of a new fiesta and focus. Which could find success if positioned the right way. 

[jpd80]

13 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Do many people know what those additional affordable EVs will be? The ones outside of a utility and truck? Lots of news sources are speculating global ev versions of a new fiesta and focus. Which could find success if positioned the right way. 

 

I wonder if the other two will replace the Euro MEBs towards the end of the decade.

Remember, Ford is selling a lot of sizzle here but to work, it has to wait for better batteries.

 

Also, one article was saying that Ford expects a return of $25,000 to $30,000.

Most took that as the intended starting price but makes me wonder the way that was said…

If Ford is pitching a 2027/2028 price of $50,000-$55,000, that $25,000 return might be a possibility.

(yes, I believe that Ford would gouge the ever living crap out of buyers if it could get away with it)

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2024 by jpd80

[Harley Lover]

4 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Also, one article was saying that Ford expects a return of $25,000 to $30,000.

Most took that as the intended starting price but makes me wonder the way that was said…

If Ford is pitching a 2027/2028 price of $50,000-$55,000, that $25,000 return might be a possibility.

(yes, I believe that Ford would gouge the ever living crap out of buyers if it could get away with it)

 

That has to be a misunderstanding on the part of that article, doesn't it? Everything else I've read is Farley talking about those figures in terms of price point, not margin. Remember the context for the discussion of these vehicles is "competing with the Chinese on low price models" - I get your point based on that article you read, I just think the author misconstrued the information they heard.

[jpd80]

9 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

That has to be a misunderstanding on the part of that article, doesn't it? Everything else I've read is Farley talking about those figures in terms of price point, not margin. Remember the context for the discussion of these vehicles is "competing with the Chinese on low price models" - I get your point based on that article you read, I just think the author misconstrued the information they heard.

 And I concur with that thinking, I just wonder if market pricing and rising  costs in the next two years

will keep those starting prices a lot higher. Also maybe  why Tesla pulled back from its $25k vehicle.