Is the 3.5 duratec water pump failure caused by mileage or age?

[DeluxeStang]

Our explorer is around 9 years old, but only around 32k on it. For other people who own, or have owned vehicles with this engine, is the water pump something I should be concerned about at this stage in my vehicle's life.

 

Here's the coolant level, because it's a low mileage 2017, the coolant hasn't been flushed/changed out yet, but that's gonna change next week. Lots of people have said there's no need to do a coolant flush/top off at 30k, but I don't want to risk it. People were saying it looks a little low, but no reason to be concerned. 

[Andrew L]

I think both to be honest.  In the groups I am in I have seen it go out as early as 70k miles and as late as 140k miles.  Age varies. 

 

Of course, there are exceptions, and I have seen some people claim they have had over 200k miles without ever touching it but I question those personally with how frequently it comes up.

Edited August 12, 2024 by Andrew L

[DeluxeStang]

34 minutes ago, Andrew L said:

I think both to be honest.  In the groups I am in I have seen it go out as early as 70k miles and as late as 140k miles.  Age varies. 

 

Of course, there are exceptions, and I have seen some people claim they have had over 200k miles without ever touching it but I question those personally with how frequently it comes up.

I'd be curious to know what the failure rate it. It is worth noting these engines literally exist in the millions, and most people you and I have never had issues. Also seems like it was more common with earlier engines, but that could be because they're older rather than to do with anything design related. 

[Andrew L]

3 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

I'd be curious to know what the failure rate it. It is worth noting these engines literally exist in the millions, and most people you and I have never had issues. Also seems like it was more common with earlier engines, but that could be because they're older rather than to do with anything design related. 

 

I have been told by a few that regular coolant flushes can help prolong it but others have said that does nothing.

 

There was a class action lawsuit about this so it's not just forum members complaining either.  https://fordauthority.com/2024/01/ford-water-pump-lawsuit-settlement-ends-class-action/

 

At the end of the day it's a lousy design.  From what I have heard the 3.5 and 3.7 in RWD form with an external water pump are great engines.  It's just in FWD form with the internal water pump that ruins it.

[CurtisH]

1 minute ago, Andrew L said:

 

I have been told by a few that regular coolant flushes can help prolong it but others have said that does nothing.

 

There was a class action lawsuit about this so it's not just forum members complaining either.  https://fordauthority.com/2024/01/ford-water-pump-lawsuit-settlement-ends-class-action/

 

At the end of the day it's a lousy design.  From what I have heard the 3.5 and 3.7 in RWD form with an external water pump are great engines.  It's just in FWD form with the internal water pump that ruins it.

We had about 128,000 miles on our 2011 Edge when we traded it in last year.  Never had any issues with the water pump.  Maybe we were lucky.  But you’re right, it’s the FWD version that has issues.  I haven’t ever seen or read about the RWD version having issues. 

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, CurtisH said:

We had about 128,000 miles on our 2011 Edge when we traded it in last year.  Never had any issues with the water pump.  Maybe we were lucky.  But you’re right, it’s the FWD version that has issues.  I haven’t ever seen or read about the RWD version having issues. 

The answer is almost certainly no, but is there any way to mod the FWD motors to have an externally mounted water pump? 

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, Andrew L said:

 

I have been told by a few that regular coolant flushes can help prolong it but others have said that does nothing.

 

There was a class action lawsuit about this so it's not just forum members complaining either.  https://fordauthority.com/2024/01/ford-water-pump-lawsuit-settlement-ends-class-action/

 

At the end of the day it's a lousy design.  From what I have heard the 3.5 and 3.7 in RWD form with an external water pump are great engines.  It's just in FWD form with the internal water pump that ruins it.

Class action lawsuits exist over basically anything though. Let's say these water pumps had a 1% failure rate, it's probably less, but just as a discussion. With 2 million engines, you'd hear stories of 20,000 people having issues. 

 

Most of the forums I've seen have a few dozen to maybe a few hundred examples of this issue. This makes it seem like a super big issue, but what is a few hundred failures out of a few million engines?

[Andrew L]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

Class action lawsuits exist over basically anything though. Let's say these water pumps had a 1% failure rate, it's probably less, but just as a discussion. With 2 million engines, you'd hear stories of 20,000 people having issues. 

 

Most of the forums I've seen have a few dozen to maybe a few hundred examples of this issue. This makes it seem like a super big issue, but what is a few hundred failures out of a few million engines?

 

I mean if you don't think it's that big of an issue then why ask?  If only 1% are affected maybe less then you should be fine right?

 

2 million is actually smaller than what is probably affected, I threw this together in Excel just to give an idea of how many cars are affected.  I used rough estimates on models that used other engines as options so my numbers could be off but it at least gives us a baseline.  Here's the issue too, some of these cars are coming up on 17 years old.  If you have a 17 year old MKZ or a 16 year old Sable with 120k miles and you're told it's going to cost you 2-3k to fix the engine are you going to get it done or just junk it and get something else?  The other side of that is if it goes early enough and it's under warranty you won't hear people complaining about it either cause "who cares Ford is paying for it".

 

 

Not trying to give you a hard time on this just pointing out that this is probably a bigger issue than just "a hand full".  I am on Lincoln forums, Lincoln groups on facebook, and the Lincoln subreddit as well as a few Taurus groups still since I kept in touch with a few of the guys when I had my Sable and multiple Explorer groups.  This topic has come up A LOT and I am not exaggerating this.  It has pissed a lot of people off when they are given that price tag to fix their engine or in some cases if they didn't act fast enough that they need a totally new engine.  The worst part is if they get a new engine it *still* has an internal waterpump so the issue could pop up again.  Of course you get the usual folks who defend it saying dumping 3k in a car every 10 years isn't a big deal and "ya gotta pay to play" arguments which IMO are completely stupid.

 

I personally never owned a car with this engine or the variations so I cannot personally say what you should do but I have heard some say regular coolant flushes help.  It might be worth it to have a reputable mechanic take a look at it and give you a suggestion on what to do.  I would avoid a dealership for this personally.

 

Again not trying to give you a hard time just throwing out there what I have seen on this.  My g/fs parents have a 2013 Explorer with 150k ish miles on it.  It has given them a ton of grief in the past few months (transmission went out had to be replaced, dual zone climate went out blend door had to be replaced, and most recently every single warning light comes on sometimes when it's started and it's currently at the dealership to find out what's wrong).  Somehow their water pump hasn't gone out but I did inform my g/fs father of this issue.  I wouldn't be surprised if they end up trading it in soon with how many other issues they've had.  It would be a tough pill to swallow if they have to throw another 2k or more at it.

 

Just my 2 cents on this, I am sure someone on here will tell me I am 100% wrong and these engines are super reliable and you can go 300k miles with no issue and I am blowing it way out of proportion cause people on the internet only complain. 😉

[Dequindre]

Thanks for bringing this topic up. Late last year, I bought a 2011 Lincoln MKZ as a second vehicle. The original owners were an elderly couple that only put 25,000 miles on it during their ownership. I've heard about the 3.5L water pump issue in the past and was hoping that a higher mileage was more predictive of water pump failure than age. I haven't had any issues yet, but it sounds like a matter of when rather than if. 

 

What signs should I look for that the water pump may be beginning to fail? 

[Andrew L]

3 minutes ago, Dequindre said:

Thanks for bringing this topic up. Late last year, I bought a 2011 Lincoln MKZ as a second vehicle. The original owners were an elderly couple that only put 25,000 miles on it during their ownership. I've heard about the 3.5L water pump issue in the past and was hoping that a higher mileage was more predictive of water pump failure than age. I haven't had any issues yet, but it sounds like a matter of when rather than if. 

 

What signs should I look for that the water pump may be beginning to fail? 

 

The usual water pump issues like coolant leaking, overheating, engine making noises.

 

Apparently on newer versions of the water pump they added a weep hole so you can detect it faster.  I am not sure when that switch over happened though.

[akirby]

3 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

The answer is almost certainly no, but is there any way to mod the FWD motors to have an externally mounted water pump? 

No - the reason it’s internal is there isn’t room externally.  Just change the coolant and you’re probably fine.

[akirby]

4 hours ago, CurtisH said:

We had about 128,000 miles on our 2011 Edge when we traded it in last year.  Never had any issues with the water pump.  Maybe we were lucky.  But you’re right, it’s the FWD version that has issues.  I haven’t ever seen or read about the RWD version having issues. 

RWD pump is external so if it does fail it doesn’t damage the engine.  The internal pump had a design flaw that caused some to fail early but the bigger problem is they leaked internally and usually destroyed the engine.  Later versions after 1012 or so have a different design so less likely to fail but still internal.

[Sparked1]

Had a 2009 MKz with the 3.5, the water pump went out at around 140k miles. It leaked externally, $3500 later it ran great until it got totalled.

[akirby]

26 minutes ago, Sparked1 said:

It leaked externally,

Got lucky.  Must have caught it early.

[CurtisH]

12 hours ago, akirby said:

RWD pump is external so if it does fail it doesn’t damage the engine.  The internal pump had a design flaw that caused some to fail early but the bigger problem is they leaked internally and usually destroyed the engine.  Later versions after 1012 or so have a different design so less likely to fail but still internal.

Yes, I knew the the RWD version had an external water pump.  I always thought the internal water pump was a really bad design.  Seems like they could have come up with a better option.  

[akirby]

6 minutes ago, CurtisH said:

Yes, I knew the the RWD version had an external water pump.  I always thought the internal water pump was a really bad design.  Seems like they could have come up with a better option.  

I think it would have required a whole new engine design to move it so it would fit.  Downside of using an old engine developed for RWD vehicles.

[Sparked1]

7 hours ago, akirby said:

Got lucky.  Must have caught it early.

Yes, we got lucky that it leaked externally. That was 2 years ago, and the car looked and ran great. It made it a little easier to spend that kind of money on it at the time. Unfortunately, the MKz was no match for a careless driver earlier this year. It was a great car that served us well.

[Sherminator98]

8 hours ago, akirby said:

I think it would have required a whole new engine design to move it so it would fit.  Downside of using an old engine developed for RWD vehicles.

 

The 3.5L wasn't used in a RWD application till 2011. It was first used in FWD applications in Edge and then new Taurus in 2006-7

Edited August 13, 2024 by silvrsvt

[akirby]

23 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The 3.5L wasn't used in a RWD application till 2011. It was first used in FWD applications in Edge and then new Taurus in 2006-7

I’m not talking about the 3.5 specifically.  Most early FWD vehicles used I4s.  Older V6s were usually used in RWD trucks and RWD cars before being adapted to FWD use.  I think cd3/cd4 was the smallest platform for the 3.5.  But it was also used in F150.

 

Had they developed a 3.5 V6 specifically for small FWD platforms they probably could have made it external.

Edited August 13, 2024 by akirby

[Sherminator98]

12 minutes ago, akirby said:

I’m not talking about the 3.5 specifically.  Most early FWD vehicles used I4s.  Older V6s were usually used in RWD trucks and RWD cars before being adapted to FWD use.  I think cd3/cd4 was the smallest platform for the 3.5.  But it was also used in F150.

 

Had they developed a 3.5 V6 specifically for small FWD platforms they probably could have made it external.

 

Aren't you completely forgetting about the  Essex V6s from the 1980s and the Ford Duratec V6 engine from the early 1990s? All where used in FWD applications of their time period. 

The Duratech 3.5L was specifically to replaced the 3.0L family

https://www.wardsauto.com/ford-motor/ford-motor-co-duratec-35-3-5l-dohc-v-6

[Andrew L]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Aren't you completely forgetting about the  Essex V6s from the 1980s and the Ford Duratec V6 engine from the early 1990s? All where used in FWD applications of their time period. 

The Duratech 3.5L was specifically to replaced the 3.0L family

https://www.wardsauto.com/ford-motor/ford-motor-co-duratec-35-3-5l-dohc-v-6

 

And the Vulcan V6 and the SHO V6 too.  Also the 2.5 Duratec V6 if you want to separate it out from the 3.0

[DeluxeStang]

11 hours ago, akirby said:

Got lucky.  Must have caught it early.

I believe the term is weep hole, but apparently the new 3.5s have some sort of system when if it fails, it will leak externally. Not sure how effective this is, or what years it was implemented. This new yellow coolant being swapped into the 3.5 apparently does a good job at protecting the water pump seals, so fingers crossed. 

[DeluxeStang]

11 hours ago, Sparked1 said:

Had a 2009 MKz with the 3.5, the water pump went out at around 140k miles. It leaked externally, $3500 later it ran great until it got totalled.

See, while this is concerning, it kinda of isn't at the same time in the sense that your MKZ is almost a decade older and has about 110k more on it than our explorer. It's probably not a huge deal, and frankly not something I should be losing sleep over, I just really love this car and want to take care of it. 

 

That's why it's had more than a dozen oil changes, had an air filter change, and soon to be an engine coolant flush. Did I really need to do any of that as early or frequently as I have? Not really, but my approach to car ownership is to baby the shit out of things. 

 

If an engineer says change oil at 5k, I do it at 3, if they say my maverick can handle 1,500 lbs of payload, I haul no more than 500. It's obsessive, and over the top at times, but that's also probably why our explorer is nearing a decade old without a single issue this far. 

[Sherminator98]

1 hour ago, Andrew L said:

 

And the Vulcan V6 and the SHO V6 too.  Also the 2.5 Duratec V6 if you want to separate it out from the 3.0

 

yeah I forgot about the Vulcan V6

[akirby]

2 hours ago, Andrew L said:

 

And the Vulcan V6 and the SHO V6 too.  Also the 2.5 Duratec V6 if you want to separate it out from the 3.0

But weren’t those also used in RWD vehicles?