Ford Cancels 3-Row EVs, Delays Next Gen EV Pickup

[ANTAUS]

Wonder who will be losing their jobs over this...

[Dequindre]

23 hours ago, ExplorerDude said:

This started as a Hackett project with a boxy authentic Explorer looking EV. It was attractive, futuristic and instantly recognizable as an Explorer which just happened to be an EV. This was started around 2019, pre-pandemic. This was due to be produced at Cuautitlan as a MY24 vehicle.

 

Around the end of 2021, Farley change the entire program. Same platform, totally different top hat. This included a program code change as well. It went from boxy to very aero. I always thought it looked like a Polestar 3, a Tesla Model Y, a Tesla Model X, and a 1995 Taurus wagon mixed together. Horrid! This was then going to be produced in Ohio and then Oakville, then they didn’t know, to it finally being canceled. It was going to be a MY26 vehicle and then a MY28.

 

I feel for the design and engineering teams who poured their heart and work into these things only for it to be canceled. Over 5 years of time and nothing came of it.
 

Make no mistake, it’s best that this happened and this thing will not be mass produced or produced at all. Farley talks about authentic icons and passion products but this thing was far from that. It was an appliance on wheels.

Did the original rendition look at all like the 2008 Ford Explorer America concept? That was a unique design for a more modern Explorer that didn't seem to go anywhere. It didn't even seem to influence the 2011-2015 model much.

[Sherminator98]

1 hour ago, Dequindre said:

Did the original rendition look at all like the 2008 Ford Explorer America concept? That was a unique design for a more modern Explorer that didn't seem to go anywhere. It didn't even seem to influence the 2011-2015 model much.

 

what are you talking about? The Explorer America is just a 2012 Explorer with its styling turned up to 11 or 12

 

 

Sorta like the 1992 Musangt Mach III concept was a preview for the 1994 Mustang

 

[ExplorerDude]

1 hour ago, Dequindre said:

Did the original rendition look at all like the 2008 Ford Explorer America concept? That was a unique design for a more modern Explorer that didn't seem to go anywhere. It didn't even seem to influence the 2011-2015 model much.

It certainly had elements of the Explorer America concept but really it just looked like a natural evolution of the Explorer with some boxiness to it. 

[Trader 10]

4 hours ago, spudz64 said:

Let’s also agree that a Mustang sedan won’t be a mass market addition but instead a part of their halo models, with higher expected prices. It will be basically a modern Thunderbird, like until the Thunderbird went mass market in 1977. The Thunderbird was always the most $$$ Ford until then. The previous Fusion had to compete with the mass market sedans in its class. This will be a premium sporty car, for a select few vs the old Fusion. They want to expand their portfolio of their heritage brands and a Mustang sedan, esp with a V8, will be a halo model. Non V8 models will be more attainable I suspect, but still not competing with a Camry or Accord. Now the new Dodge Charger comes to mind, which will offer a non electric version, but no V8! One could argue why not just call this a Thunderbird but maybe that nameplate is too “old” now, whereas the Mustang is current. Plus we are more comfortable with a possible Mustang 4 door with the Mach E now solidly in the public’s eye. My 2 cents!

I don’t think a 4 door Mustang , if it is produced, will be a modern Thunderbird - it will be a much more hard core sports car something more along the lines of a Porsche Cayenne although more affordable. 

[sullynd]

18 minutes ago, Trader 10 said:

I don’t think a 4 door Mustang , if it is produced, will be a modern Thunderbird - it will be a much more hard core sports car something more along the lines of a Porsche Cayenne although more affordable. 

The Cayenne is a mid-large SUV. 

 

I see it as a poor/working man’s Panamera. 

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, ANTAUS said:

Wonder who will be losing their jobs over this...

Probably whoever sketched the abomination up, and the design manager that greenlit it. Then again, designers can get away with being bad at their jobs at times. The guy who sketched the Aztek is the same guy who's done all of the Camaro's and corvettes this decade. So who knows, Ford might keep the designers for this project on, but they're probably on thin ice right now. 

[Trader 10]

1 minute ago, sullynd said:

The Cayenne is a mid-large SUV. 

 

I see it as a poor/working man’s Panamera. 

You’re correct. Got the Porsche models mixed up. 

[spudz64]

1 hour ago, Trader 10 said:

I don’t think a 4 door Mustang , if it is produced, will be a modern Thunderbird - it will be a much more hard core sports car something more along the lines of a Porsche Cayenne although more affordable. 

I didn’t mean too literally but more in its placement in the Ford lineup…it will certainly be a halo model I think, and sports oriented. Btw I think you might have meant the Porsche Panamera, which is their 4 door model (Cayenne is the SUV)

[jpd80]

5 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

A mustang sedan will almost certainly outsell the coupe. Basically any time a four door and two door co-exist, the four door sells in higher volumes. As long as they don't balls up the pricing by making it start at like 70 grand, I think it'll sell quite well, comparable to the ICE charger sales figures. 

To think Ford could have unified Aussie Falcon/ Fairlane/ pickup / Territory Edge size utility all combined with mustang and Explorer a decade ago now…..,

 

So many missed opportunities 

[T-dubz]

5 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

A mustang sedan will almost certainly outsell the coupe. Basically any time a four door and two door co-exist, the four door sells in higher volumes. As long as they don't balls up the pricing by making it start at like 70 grand, I think it'll sell quite well, comparable to the ICE charger sales figures. 

I’ll start by saying I think a 4 dr mustang could be cool and I have no problem with it, but I think it’s an incredibly risky venture, especially after a 1.9 billion loss on EVs. 

Sport sedans usually work on luxury models, but most affordable sports sedans fail. Kia stinger is a good recent example. Chevy SS is also a good example, but I think it was a little more pricey. You might say the charger worked, but it’s more of the exception than the rule. It also shared a platform and many parts with the challenger and 300. It’s also old as dirt and all the equipment, engineering, etc was paid off years ago. Throw in fleet sales and Dodge was probably making a decent profit on it and didn’t mind that its sales (70-80k) were fairly low. Ford’s situation will be completely different.

[rmc523]

On 8/22/2024 at 2:36 AM, jpd80 said:

Design lock in next year, they’re doing what Ford Engineering and  billions of dollars  couldn’t do.

 

 

Both parts of your post are actually linked.

 

GE2 has been circling the airport for too many years, it’s an example of why Ford is probably going away from larger internal development teams.  At least on some projects…

 

and if buyers don’t start showing real interest in Lightning, that T3 project will keep going backwards… and with present volumes, it could have been built in the REV center and had plenty of production capacity…

Scary thought that…….

 

I'd argue it's hard for buyers to start showing real interest in Lightning if it's a compromised product (in the sense of not the best in battery capability)...

 

On 8/22/2024 at 7:27 AM, silvrsvt said:

 

That is the million dollar question right now-Borg was saying that the Explorer was apparently moving to a new platform, but here is another thing to consider-maybe this three row will be something different all together and actually closer to an Edge size product? The CD6 Explorer could exist on its own due to Police sales (they like the continuity of being able to move equipment from one gen to the other...or it used to be that way) and still have a hybrid option, since it could share the 2.3 Ecoboost hybrid with the Bronco and Ranger. 

 

I just wonder how much different this vehicle is going to be, since Ford seems to be trumping how efficient it will be. 

 

My thought is we'll see Explorer soldier on on CD6 with new top hats, and then maybe we'll see another Edge-like product with a third row option underneath it.

 

22 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I was wondering if it was going to be C2 based but now it looks like it’s just the evolution of  hybrid versions of CD6 Explorer that Ford originally planned to do before all in on BEVs.

 

I have no comment on four door coupe Mustang only to say that it’s quite interesting that Ford says it lost a lot of money selling sedans yet floats the idea of a four door Mustang…

 

Except they can justify higher prices for a "Mustang" 4-door vs. a Fusion, therefore it makes their numbers work better (on paper, anyway).

[Texasota]

On 8/22/2024 at 6:27 AM, silvrsvt said:

I just wonder how much different this vehicle is going to be, since Ford seems to be trumping how efficient it will be. 

That sounds to me like it’s going to be a PHEV. 

[jpd80]

6 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

I'd argue it's hard for buyers to start showing real interest in Lightning if it's a compromised product (in the sense of not the best in battery capability)...

Fair comment but there are actually two issues,

- the current battery choices are insufficient for what buyers perceive as acceptable range

- when towing heavy loads, all trucks need a lot of power that reduces fuel economy and range to about a third of the normal values 

 

In those instances, the Lightning underscores or accentuates the problems faced by F150 owners. Gasoline trucks are supplied with bigger gas tanks to ensure sufficient range even when towing. The size and price of a battery to match that capability is exactly why Ford is stepping away from vehicles with giant battery packs, it’s far less profitable to sell vehicles like that.

 

and that’s the real reason why Ford keeps pushing back TE1 BEV F 150, it may be easier to just put a better battery pack in the Lightning and call it job done.

(they won’t outright cancel Blue Oval Center as that would be a $4 billion write down)

 

6 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

My thought is we'll see Explorer soldier on on CD6 with new top hats, and then maybe we'll see another Edge-like product with a third row option underneath it.

Originally, the three row BEV was developed as a possible replacement for Explorer/Aviator but was delayed because of possible battery shortages for Transit. 
Long story short, Ford decided not to compete with its current CD6 Utilities and paid the price.

Now the plan is back to the original, an evolved CD6 with better hybrid batteries and 2.3 EB hybrid option, a killer no lose option that gives Ford a big advantage over competitors.

 

6 hours ago, rmc523 said:

Except they can justify higher prices for a "Mustang" 4-door vs. a Fusion, therefore it makes their numbers work better (on paper, anyway).

That’s what’s being sold to the Farley, the reality might be a little different but

putting a four door vehicle under the Mustang brand may be a good way

of relaunching a limited car line. I think they’re just spit balling at the moment.

[DeluxeStang]

41 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

That’s what’s being sold to the Farley, the reality might be a little different but

putting a four door vehicle under the Mustang brand may be a good way

of relaunching a limited car line. I think they’re just spit balling at the moment.

Plus it's looking like the mach-e is a one and done program with the cancellation of GE2. So coming out with a mustang sedan retains some of the buyers who want a more practical 4 door mustang body style that Ford would otherwise by losing when they killed mach-e. 

 

Not to mention a V8 powered sedan is gonna be received a hundred times more favorably by the mustang faithful than the mach-e was. 

[Rick73]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Now the plan is back to the original, an evolved CD6 with better hybrid batteries and 2.3 EB hybrid option, a killer no lose option that gives Ford a big advantage over competitors.

Curious what you mean by “no lose”?  If what I think, do you not think you may lose some of the more budget minded buyers, and perhaps also those with greater preference towards buying green?  

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Plus it's looking like the mach-e is a one and done program with the cancellation of GE2. So coming out with a mustang sedan retains some of the buyers who want a more practical 4 door mustang body style that Ford would otherwise by losing when they killed mach-e. 

 

Not to mention a V8 powered sedan is gonna be received a hundred times more favorably by the mustang faithful than the mach-e was. 

The second generation Falcon was advertised in Australia as Mustang bred,

there is a strong history of Mustang DNA linkage that Ford USA could leverage

 

This could be a clever way of economising the semi developed CD6 sedan..

Top hat for a well proportioned car that uses a lot of S650 and CD6.

 

33 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Curious what you mean by “no lose”?  If what I think, do you not think you may lose some of the more budget minded buyers, and perhaps also those with greater preference towards buying green?  

I think you’re reading too much into that statement.

For clarity, I was talking about a way that Ford could keep the majority of its existing Explorer/Aviator sales in the face of steadily rising CAFE fuel economy targets. That would be preferable over doing anything more like another GE2 three row BEV right now, the pain is still real for Ford.

 

Other possibilities 

Ford has also shown that hybrids can also serve as onsite power sources and this might be an opportunity to flow this idea to Explorer in terms of lifestyle camping or light  tradesman business on site power for tools or lighting.

 

Also, don’t discount the possibility of a longer range PHEV or even an EREV.

A vehicle like that may be possible on CD6 or even C2, maybe saving face

after som big financial black eyes lately…

Edited August 23, 2024 by jpd80

[Sherminator98]

2 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Plus it's looking like the mach-e is a one and done program with the cancellation of GE2. So coming out with a mustang sedan retains some of the buyers who want a more practical 4 door mustang body style that Ford would otherwise by losing when they killed mach-e. 

 

The Mach E is based on a modified C1 platform and if anything would fit on whatever package the skunkworks EV for its next generation. I don't think it or the Lightning are going anywhere in the next 5 years or so and every should have a much better idea of how the switch to EVs is going. 

The 3 row EV was cancelled due to a bunch of factors and the HEV 3 row they are talking about is just a mid term project...it might be as simple as the Explorer getting  PHEV 2.3L Ecoboost or a completely different package based on C2 platform. 

Depending on your views the next couple of years might be really shitty for the economy-we are way overdue for a "real" recession-one that has been talked about since Trump was going into office back in 2016.  

[Biker16]

I was watching the podcast about the dilemma the legacy Automakers are in and this stood out to me.

"Does Ford believe They can React their way to success, or do they think they need to take step back to take two steps forward."

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxGCgVdtxSi-rlwcxlIuKW0YTd4INI0Cye?si=0XPb0sY_h7rJNGpT

[02MustangGT]

9 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

we are way overdue for a "real" recession-one that has been talked about since Trump was going into office back in 2016.  

How and why? 

[DeluxeStang]

12 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The Mach E is based on a modified C1 platform and if anything would fit on whatever package the skunkworks EV for its next generation. I don't think it or the Lightning are going anywhere in the next 5 years or so and every should have a much better idea of how the switch to EVs is going. 

The 3 row EV was cancelled due to a bunch of factors and the HEV 3 row they are talking about is just a mid term project...it might be as simple as the Explorer getting  PHEV 2.3L Ecoboost or a completely different package based on C2 platform. 

Depending on your views the next couple of years might be really shitty for the economy-we are way overdue for a "real" recession-one that has been talked about since Trump was going into office back in 2016.  

A second gen on CE1 if it was up to the task would be great, but I just don't see it. The only utility we've heard of for CE1 thus far is the bronco sport inspired boxy thing. I've said before that a sleek, coupe like crossover is a really desirable body style, especially when well executed. But who knows if Ford wants to keep going in that direction. 

[DeluxeStang]

Just now, 02MustangGT said:

How and why? 

People can't afford to buy 500k starter homes and 80k trucks forever man. Our current economy isn't sustainable. Most of the young people I'm friends with have had their salaries double, yet their quality of life has gone to shit for at least a few years. 

 

I knew someone who had a nice apartment in the outskirts of Salt Lake, then a shitty duplex in downtown Salt Lake, and now, is renting out a single bedroom you can barely walk around in in a really rundown 50 year old home in a sketchy part of town. Something isn't right with our current economy, and needs to give. 

[akirby]

Careful on the political posts.

[02MustangGT]

34 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

People can't afford to buy 500k starter homes and 80k trucks forever man. Our current economy isn't sustainable. Most of the young people I'm friends with have had their salaries double, yet their quality of life has gone to shit for at least a few years.

What is your definition of a starter home?  I live in an affluent area with property taxes exceeding the norm and median home values in the 450k range.  I realize that this situation may not apply elsewhere, but people looking for a starter home aren’t shopping for 400k homes in this area.  As far as vehicles are concerned, pricing will continue to stabilize but there is no turning back the clock (none of this means a recession is imminent).  Back on topic..some believe that Ford will somehow sell a viable $25k-$30k MSRP EV perhaps 2-3 years from now?  Good luck with that.  

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, 02MustangGT said:

What is your definition of a starter home?  I live in an affluent area with property taxes exceeding the norm and median home values in the 450k range.  I realize that this situation may not apply elsewhere, but people looking for a starter home aren’t shopping for 400k homes in this area.  As far as vehicles are concerned, pricing will continue to stabilize but there is no turning back the clock (none of this means a recession is imminent).  Back on topic..some believe that Ford will somehow sell a viable $25k-$30k MSRP EV perhaps 2-3 years from now?  Good luck with that.  

Where I live, a town house starts at about 500k. But to be fair, Utah is one the most expensive state in the country for house prices, it's like 3rd worst state for average housing prices relative to average incomes, at least it was during the peak of the 2021/22 housing peak. If you're paying 300k you're getting a boarded up house with a moldy interior. 

 

But I won't say any more about that, as it's off topic. We were just talking about the state of the economy and why people are struggling.