Explorer EV and Capri Not Selling

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, mackinaw said:

 

Marauder and Caliente.......definitely.  Cyclone could work too.  

Wasn’t the Cyclone a Comet?  Not sure.  I recall hearing or reading of Comet Cyclone GT which was based on Fairlane and had 390 engine.

[mackinaw]

27 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Wasn’t the Cyclone a Comet?  Not sure.  I recall hearing or reading of Comet Cyclone GT which was based on Fairlane and had 390 engine.

 

Originally the Cyclone was a Comet. In 1968, Cyclone became its own nameplate.  My brother had a 1968 Cyclone.  White fastback with red accents.  Forgot the engine, but a sharp looking car.

[atomcat68]

23 hours ago, akirby said:

Icons are vehicles that are instantly recognizable as a Ford and have a long history and are among the best in their class.  Everybody knows F150, GT, Mustang and Explorer are Fords.  Show 100 people a debadged Maverick and you’d be lucky if half know it’s a Ford.  It’s too new.  And Transit is only well known in the fleet world.

 

Thats totally separate from the desirable vehicles that Farley wants.  Some icons fit that role, some may not.  But you keep Icons like Mustang even if they’re not profitable - because it’s an icon of Ford Motor Company with a 60 year history.

My argument against Explorer is that when it was changed to a FWD based Volvo platform, there were no letter writing campaigns or hoards of angry people like when the Mustang was almost replaced like the Probe. Look at the passion Mustang awakens in people. There are strong opinions when customers feel the Mustang isn't being honored like Mustang II or Mach E. 

 

When Explorer changed, it was a collective "meh", and the FWD one sold well. Bronco was absent from Ford's lineup for a long time. 

 

Thunderbirds, Galaxies, Taurus and Fairlanes are instantly recognizable as Fords and are gone. All good cars, but no one really raged at that as much as when Ford almost made the Probe the Mustang.

 

The most powerful emotional responses are usually to F-150 and Mustang and the others do not have the same degree of fanaticism. 

[akirby]

8 minutes ago, atomcat68 said:

My argument against Explorer is that when it was changed to a FWD based Volvo platform, there were no letter writing campaigns or hoards of angry people like when the Mustang was almost replaced like the Probe. Look at the passion Mustang awakens in people. There are strong opinions when customers feel the Mustang isn't being honored like Mustang II or Mach E. 

 

When Explorer changed, it was a collective "meh", and the FWD one sold well. Bronco was absent from Ford's lineup for a long time.  

Because what made Explorer popular had nothing to do with it being body on frame.  In fact you could argue that it succeeded despite being BOF.  I owned 2 - a 93 and a 97.   Unibody was a big improvement in NVH and fuel economy.  It’s iconic because it was the first high volume SUV.

[Biker16]

8 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

And still have it not sell...it would still be a 40k+ for a smaller C class car. 

Its the same size as the ID.4. which has a larger interior than the Mach-E. 

[Sherminator98]

10 hours ago, Biker16 said:

Its the same size as the ID.4. which has a larger interior than the Mach-E. 

Length:175.6 in 

Width: 73.6 in without mirrors 

Wheelbase:109.1 in 

 

Bronco Sport
173″ L 

74″ W

WB:105.1″

 

Having a larger interior doesn't mean shit because that room could be from a larger cargo area that doesn't mean crap to the passengers in it. 

[Biker16]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

Length:175.6 in 

Width: 73.6 in without mirrors 

Wheelbase:109.1 in 

 

Bronco Sport
173″ L 

74″ W

WB:105.1″

 

Having a larger interior doesn't mean shit because that room could be from a larger cargo area that doesn't mean crap to the passengers in it. 

the ID.4 has both more cargo room and interior room than the Mach E.

The idea of a lower cost, roomier and less performance Focused EV, could be helpful for Ford. 

[Sherminator98]

7 minutes ago, Biker16 said:

The idea of a lower cost, roomier and less performance Focused EV, could be helpful for Ford. 

 

At a difference of about 4K Pounds between the entry level models the Explorer EV and Mach E (and even the premium models), I'd say there really isn't much on price 

[jpd80]

So in terms of length, it’s 

Explorer EV    175”

Capri EV           182”

Mach E.          186”

 

Cant help thinking that Explorer EV  is Ford revisiting the E-Max dimensions / bulbous shape

and why that car was going to fail to capture buyers interest. Capri EV is longer but it still

gives me a strange vibe…

[bzcat]

Explorer EV is Ford's replacement for Focus in Europe. Farley let the European team had their shot and they missed. 

 

I think by now Farley probably has already made up his mind about pulling Ford out of making and selling volume cars in Europe. 

 

Ford Europe has dominant position in commercial vans to protect so Ford will double down on that. Two moves in the last 18 months has made that clear in my mind:

1. Moving Romania plant under Ford Otosan control - so now the best selling Ford passenger vehicle in Europe (Puma) is no longer being produced by Ford Europe.
2. Ford restarting production in India. While no specific model is mentioned, Ford did say it does not intend to go back to selling cars in India. This means the production will be bigger C-segment sized vehicles for export (Indian market is dominated by A and B-segment vehicles). Where is all that C-size vehicles going? It's not just for Australia or Taiwan that is for sure.

 

Seems clear to me that the plan is to eventually exit passenger vehicle production in Europe. It may take another couple of years but I think that is the plan:

• Focus on Transit and Transit Custom production in Turkey
• Transit Courier production in Romania (can keep Puma there if it still shares platform with Transit Courier but Ford can pivot to Transit Courier only very easily)
• Import C-segment vehicles from India
• Import D-segment vehicles from North America
• Import Ranger from Thailand/South Africa
• Cologne and Valencia probably up for sale if BYD or another Chinese car company will pony up enough cash

 

Edited November 15 by bzcat

[ZanatWork]

16 hours ago, atomcat68 said:

My argument against Explorer is that when it was changed to a FWD based Volvo platform, there were no letter writing campaigns or hoards of angry people like when the Mustang was almost replaced like the Probe. Look at the passion Mustang awakens in people. There are strong opinions when customers feel the Mustang isn't being honored like Mustang II or Mach E. 

 

When Explorer changed, it was a collective "meh", and the FWD one sold well. Bronco was absent from Ford's lineup for a long time. 

 

Thunderbirds, Galaxies, Taurus and Fairlanes are instantly recognizable as Fords and are gone. All good cars, but no one really raged at that as much as when Ford almost made the Probe the Mustang.

 

The most powerful emotional responses are usually to F-150 and Mustang and the others do not have the same degree of fanaticism. 

The Explorer was (is) often bought for capacity, and for the "sporty" optics vs a minivan or similar. The last of the RWD-based Explorers had kept its styling with too little evolution before the Volvo-bone ones debuted.

[ZanatWork]

I think the EV issue will be complicated by resentment to legislated "choices", combined with the many reported issues of the new tech as vehicles and charging stations along the way.

I certainly feel a degree of that.

[Biker16]

3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

At a difference of about 4K Pounds between the entry level models the Explorer EV and Mach E (and even the premium models), I'd say there really isn't much on price 

VW made ~700k MEB-based EVs in 2023, Vs. 44k Mach Es in 2023. I have no doubt Any MEB based EV will cost less than the Mach-E.



 

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, Biker16 said:

VW made ~700k MEB-based EVs in 2023, Vs. 44k Mach Es in 2023. I have no doubt Any MEB based EV will cost less than the Mach-E.

Remember that article from June 2022 where Mach E cost ~$25,000 more to build than a comparable Edge ($19,000).

https://www.autonews.com/automakers/fords-mustang-mach-e-profit-wiped-out-rising-commodity-costs/
 

In 2022, the build cost of a Mach E was approx $44,000 and since then, Ford has managed to claw back 

about $5,000 in savings but balance that against other rising costs for material and battery and it’s

easy to imagine a near $50,000 cost. Maybe this is wrong but I’m also willing to bet it’s exactly

why the CE1 skunkworks was commissioned in 2022, Farley reportedly hit the roof over this

and wanted a clean sheet approach away from Ford Edison/standard development project.

 

MEB

Breifly, the things that act against the build costs are the high amount of labor required

contractually by the Union and owners of VW to support employment in the region.

What seemed like a very good idea when developed in the late twenty teens is now

forcing VW to realise the more MEBs it makes, the more it actually risks losing.

VW has sunk more than $70 billion into MEB, it must make and sell so many more than

Ford’s Mach E just to break even, VW will be running backwards on MEB for the next 

ten years or more. The idea was to offset some of the costs onto Ford but I think that

Farley saw them coming and eliminated a lot of the cream from batteries and power train.

 

Edited November 15 by jpd80

[Sherminator98]

Speaking of the MEB platform
 

Rivian Achieved in Three Months What Volkswagen Couldn't Do in Years of Spending Billions

 

When it realized this, Volkswagen pursued a partnership with Xpeng to jointly develop software-defined vehicles. The German carmaker is already scrapping the MEB platform in China in favor of an Xpeng-supplied architecture. However, using Chinese technology would not fly in Europe and North America. This is why Volkswagen started talks with Rivian, and you know the outcome. 

[jpd80]

3 hours ago, bzcat said:

Explorer EV is Ford's replacement for Focus in Europe. Farley let the European team had their shot and they missed. 

 

I think by now Farley probably has already made up his mind about pulling Ford out of making and selling volume cars in Europe. 

That remains ot be seen but at the moment, let’s just assume that Dearborn is not happy with the

autonomous decision making coming out of Ford Europe and lately everything they touch, they screw up.

 

The Euro bosses were to home market centric and then offer their designs to North America and ROW

while resisting any sort of changes that suit regional conditions. All of that stops now as Farley now

want a global approach to Ford Europe designs. Regardless of what’s said publicly, they need to

evolve Escape/Kuga with a much better styling package - Focus buyers didn’t migrate to it and

sales went backwards awfully. Ford needs to regroup before it loses even more sales in Europe.

 

3 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Ford Europe has dominant position in commercial vans to protect so Ford will double down on that. Two moves in the last 18 months has made that clear in my mind:

1. Moving Romania plant under Ford Otosan control - so now the best selling Ford passenger vehicle in Europe (Puma) is no longer being produced by Ford Europe.
2. Ford restarting production in India. While no specific model is mentioned, Ford did say it does not intend to go back to selling cars in India. This means the production will be bigger C-segment sized vehicles for export (Indian market is dominated by A and B-segment vehicles). Where is all that C-size vehicles going? It's not just for Australia or Taiwan that is for sure.

The significance of Ford Otosan controlling Puma production cannot be understated,

Ford Europe jealously controlled this for its own markets, stopping Euro 5 versions 

 

I don’t have a lot of faith in next Gen Ecosport of Aussie market, it’s more down market

than what buyers in that market expect and coming up against good Asian competition 

could make it hard to sell……a lower price point may help but that’s not the Ford way..

 

3 hours ago, bzcat said:

Seems clear to me that the plan is to eventually exit passenger vehicle production in Europe. It may take another couple of years but I think that is the plan:

• Focus on Transit and Transit Custom production in Turkey
• Transit Courier production in Romania (can keep Puma there if it still shares platform with Transit Courier but Ford can pivot to Transit Courier only very easily)
• Import C-segment vehicles from India
• Import D-segment vehicles from North America
• Import Ranger from Thailand/South Africa
• Cologne and Valencia probably up for sale if BYD or another Chinese car company will pony up enough cash

 

Interesting thought, if European regulations get too tough to sell passenger vehicles

then why should Ford Europe even bother? But in saying that, ROW needs a much 

more reliable closer supplier, India or Thailand could provide that in spades.

All that needed is another “Valencia” C2 flexible plant producing a variety

of products under the one shop.  QED

[jpd80]

21 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

Speaking of the MEB platform
 

Rivian Achieved in Three Months What Volkswagen Couldn't Do in Years of Spending Billions

 

When it realized this, Volkswagen pursued a partnership with Xpeng to jointly develop software-defined vehicles. The German carmaker is already scrapping the MEB platform in China in favor of an Xpeng-supplied architecture. However, using Chinese technology would not fly in Europe and North America. This is why Volkswagen started talks with Rivian, and you know the outcome. 

Good pick up silversvt,

looks like VW is doing similar to Toyota in China and simply outsourcing vehicles

from Chinese Xpeng and BYD respectively, a quiet capitulation while both sell

the idea of Chinese based vehicles built in low cost locations like Spain and Mexico?

[bzcat]

The writing has been on the wall in China for a while now. With vehicles all becoming software defined, there is just no way car companies can continue to sell the same vehicles in China as they do the rest of the world. In order to deploy software in China, foreign companies have to have the system and data hosted in China and you have to provide the source code to the Ministry of Stealing Industry and Technology. 

 

This is why Ford gave up a few years ago and switched to using Baidu's operating system in China. And why VW is going to use Xpeng's software. 

 

And also why Google and Amazon Cloud are not in China.

[ausrutherford]

I don't think the Capri is on sale yet...

[mackinaw]

1 hour ago, ausrutherford said:

I don't think the Capri is on sale yet...

 

Being shipped to dealers/customers as of 10/14/2024.

 

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/en/news/2024/10/14/new-electric-ford-capri-is-on-its-way-to-customers.html

[jpd80]

Ford Europe’s current BEV problems have been coming for a long time..
 

All of this thread shows us that back in the twenty teens, Ford couldn’t stay on plan with what was required

in terms of BEVs, the BEV Focus was already there, all that was needed was a BEV Escape to join it.

But Ford knew better, it switched the whole package to an S-Max because its buyer data was out of date.

 

Farley and Hackett triaged that mistake by spending more cash on E-Max, turning it into a premium priced vehicle.

The problem of no affordable BEV still remained, so Hackett did a deal with VW to let them provide most of the

hardware including battery supply. Time showed this to be short sighted, so then Ford went all in on battery JVs.

 

All of this tells me that Ford never really understood customers and couldn’t break out of its own silo long enough

to see that making and selling hugely expensive BEVs was the path to financial ruin, how would it pay for all of this.

 

 

Edited November 16 by jpd80

[AM222]

On 11/16/2024 at 1:03 AM, jpd80 said:

So in terms of length, it’s 

Explorer EV    175”

Capri EV           182”

Mach E.          186”

 

Cant help thinking that Explorer EV  is Ford revisiting the E-Max dimensions / bulbous shape

and why that car was going to fail to capture buyers interest. Capri EV is longer but it still

gives me a strange vibe…

Both are expensive compacts. The Capri EV looks like a fastback sedan with larger diameter tires and 6 inches added to the bottom of the car. I like some styling details, but the proportions aren't good. 

If Ford wanted to bring back the Capri and it had to be a 4-door EV, it might have made more sense to revive it as a Tesla Model 3 rival instead of the stubby SUV coupe they created. 

Edited November 20 by AM222

[AM222]

On 11/16/2024 at 2:47 AM, bzcat said:

Ford restarting production in India. While no specific model is mentioned, Ford did say it does not intend to go back to selling cars in India. This means the production will be bigger C-segment sized vehicles for export (Indian market is dominated by A and B-segment vehicles). Where is all that C-size vehicles going? It's not just for Australia or Taiwan that is for sure.

 

Ford started selling (China-sourced) right-hand drive Ford Territory C-segment SUVs in South Africa earlier this year, this model is rumored to be introduced in India too. *Ford trademarked the "Territory" name in India.

If Ford will build a C-segment vehicle in India, it will probably be a BEV which will probably not be as profitable as a subcompact ICE/Hybrid model. Still wish they'd build the shelved next gen EcoSport. Subcompacts make up a large chunk of sales in most global markets.

Edited November 20 by AM222

[Sherminator98]

Ford to Lay Off 4,000 People In Europe

 

So looks like what bzcat was saying is starting to happen

[DeluxeStang]

7 hours ago, AM222 said:

Both are expensive compacts. The Capri EV looks like a fastback sedan with larger diameter tires and 6 inches added to the bottom of the car. I like some styling details, but the proportions aren't good. 

If Ford wanted to bring back the Capri and it had to be a 4-door EV, it might have made more sense to revive it as a Tesla Model 3 rival instead of the stubby SUV coupe they created. 

The proportions of the Capri are definitely hurt by the hard points the VW platform had. This is a lifestyle product, the design team should have pushed for a longer hood like what the mach-e has, a longer dash to axle ratio in particular. But again, that was probably pre-defined by the VW's hard points. 

 

The decision to use the explorer's doors and fenders was also a massive mistake. You're trying to bring back this sleek, swoopy coupe and you give it the body side from a product that was intentionally designed to look chunky. It was never gonna look good.