Next Camaro Must Be More Affordable To Happen

[DeluxeStang]

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2025/01/chevy-camaro-must-become-less-expensive-to-see-next-gen-exclusive/

 

Do not sleep on this Ford, pay attention to what your rivals are doing. 

[akirby]

The only way to make it significantly cheaper is to make it a Miata clone (smaller, lighter, no back seat) which requires a new bespoke engine.   
 

To make the current one cheaper would require a new bespoke engine (probably a longitudinal 2.0eb) and would accomplish absolutely nothing.

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

The only way to make it significantly cheaper is to make it a Miata clone (smaller, lighter, no back seat) which requires a new bespoke engine.   
 

To make the current one cheaper would require a new bespoke engine (probably a longitudinal 2.0eb) and would accomplish absolutely nothing.

Who says you need an engine at all? Just use this new CE1 platform, it's designed to be low, small, light, all great attributes for a car like this, and you don't have to worry about emissions regulations or CAFE averages, a car like this would only help ford there, being an EV and all. 

 

Keep the normal coupe as a V8 higher end two seater to compete with the 'vette make the EV something young people can more easily afford. You got the gas, the electric, the two seater, the four seater, the more expensive, and the more affordable versions of the mustang.

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

The only way to make it significantly cheaper is to make it a Miata clone (smaller, lighter, no back seat) which requires a new bespoke engine.   
 

To make the current one cheaper would require a new bespoke engine (probably a longitudinal 2.0eb) and would accomplish absolutely nothing.

I'd also argue you could make the hood on an EV a little shorter, offering more rear passenger space, while still letting it look right. 

[mackinaw]

7 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

Who says you need an engine at all? Just use this new CE1 platform, it's designed to be low, small, light, all great attributes for a car like this, and you don't have to worry about emissions regulations or CAFE averages, a car like this would only help ford there, being an EV and all......

 

Who says they won't?  A small truck may be the first vehicle we'll see built off the CE1 platform, but I'm sure it won't be the last.  Look how versatile the C2 platform has proven to be.

[DeluxeStang]

23 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 

Who says they won't?  A small truck may be the first vehicle we'll see built off the CE1 platform, but I'm sure it won't be the last.  Look how versatile the C2 platform has proven to be.

Because there are days where it seems like Ford hates fun lol. I agree, get the truck, utilities, the boring stuff that's actually gonna sell, get that on the market first, it takes priority. I just hear Ford talking about how they want all of their future models to be something very few other people are offering, so it seems this is at least worth a shot. 

[Sherminator98]

I find the whole "affordable" comments to be completely nebulous...are they supposed to be affordable to produce or to the consumer?

Average car price is still around $49K

 

Going by GMs comments, I'd expect them to completely jack up the next Gen Camaro like they did with the Blazer name

[Biker16]

This does exist

https://www.toyota.com/gr86/

[rmc523]

32 minutes ago, Biker16 said:

This does exist

https://www.toyota.com/gr86/

 

They sold a whopping 11,426 of those and 2,615 Supras.  If you want to be generous and include the BRZ twin, you're at 14,771 GR86+BRZ.

[Biker16]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

 

They sold a whopping 11,426 of those and 2,615 Supras.  If you want to be generous and include the BRZ twin, you're at 14,771 GR86+BRZ.

 

In the US. 

[Sherminator98]

1 hour ago, Biker16 said:

 

In the US. 

 

They sold a whopping 5081 Supras worldwide in 2023

 

about 25K GR86/BRZ in 2023

 

The Mustang still outsold both of them. 

[Biker16]

22 hours ago, Sherminator98 said:

 

They sold a whopping 5081 Supras worldwide in 2023

 

about 25K GR86/BRZ in 2023

 

The Mustang still outsold both of them. 

I bet Toyota still makes a profit on volumes that low. 

[akirby]

2 hours ago, Biker16 said:

I bet Toyota still makes a profit on volumes that low. 

I should hope so.  They let Subaru and BMW do the manufacturing and all the heavy lifting on the design and engineering.  They’re Toyotas in name only.

[morgan20]

2 hours ago, Biker16 said:

I bet Toyota still makes a profit on volumes that low. 

 

Yea, but it's Toyota. Like akirby mentioned, Toyota relies on Subaru and BMW do the heavy lifting for GR86 and GR Supra. I doubt that other automakers are going to do that for their iconic products.

 

Also, Toyota simply operates differently. When I worked for Ford, I received external training in quality management (which Ford paid for). One my classes used the book The Toyota Way, which highlighted these four areas that served as the foundation for Toyota's business:

•     long-term philosophy,
•     the right process will produce the right results,
•     add value to the organization by developing your people, and
•     continuously solving root problems drives organizational learning

Of course, Toyota ain't perfect. But they adhere to these principles better than others

[Sherminator98]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

I should hope so.  They let Subaru and BMW do the manufacturing and all the heavy lifting on the design and engineering.  They’re Toyotas in name only.

 

Subaru is more or less controlled by Toyota, so lets call a spade a spade....and you have to really wonder how profitable a RWD platform is that only sells 25K units a year. The have a different cost structure then most US makers, but even other companies that are selling mainstream cars give up on them if they sell in low numbers like that (Kia Stinger for example)
The Toyota-Subaru partnership is a lot more involved below the surface

At least in the Mustangs case, the vast majority of the engineering work has been paid off because they are more or less using the same platform for 20+ years now. Yeah its been updated and given a tune up over those 20 years, but most of the big buck items are amortized already. 

[Biker16]

1 hour ago, Sherminator98 said:

 

Subaru is more or less controlled by Toyota, so lets call a spade a spade....and you have to really wonder how profitable a RWD platform is that only sells 25K units a year. The have a different cost structure then most US makers, but even other companies that are selling mainstream cars give up on them if they sell in low numbers like that (Kia Stinger for example)
The Toyota-Subaru partnership is a lot more involved below the surface

At least in the Mustangs case, the vast majority of the engineering work has been paid off because they are more or less using the same platform for 20+ years now. Yeah its been updated and given a tune up over those 20 years, but most of the big buck items are amortized already. 

 

I don't know; building a low-volume product like the mustang in an underutilized factory is a recipe for failure, no matter how amortized the product is. 

 

 

[twintornados]

4 hours ago, Biker16 said:

I don't know; building a low-volume product like the mustang in an underutilized factory is a recipe for failure, no matter how amortized the product is.

 

Maybe Ford could "contract build" Camaro at Flat Rock?

[akirby]

13 hours ago, morgan20 said:

 

Yea, but it's Toyota. Like akirby mentioned, Toyota relies on Subaru and BMW do the heavy lifting for GR86 and GR Supra. I doubt that other automakers are going to do that for their iconic products.

 

Also, Toyota simply operates differently. When I worked for Ford, I received external training in quality management (which Ford paid for). One my classes used the book The Toyota Way, which highlighted these four areas that served as the foundation for Toyota's business:

•     long-term philosophy,
•     the right process will produce the right results,
•     add value to the organization by developing your people, and
•     continuously solving root problems drives organizational learning

Of course, Toyota ain't perfect. But they adhere to these principles better than others

Those are great principles for any business.  Unfortunately they are in opposition to short term profits and stock prices.

[akirby]

9 hours ago, Biker16 said:

 

I don't know; building a low-volume product like the mustang in an underutilized factory is a recipe for failure, no matter how amortized the product is. 

Not failure, just less profit.  But I bet the higher priced GTs and Dark horse plus the older platform allow Mustang to break even at least.
 

Flat Rock is a real head scratcher.  I think they want to close it but they won’t kill Mustang.  They should have spent the money to refurbish it so they can build taller vehicles.  Having another U.S. c2 factory would be a good thing right now.

[atomcat68]

4 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

Maybe Ford could "contract build" Camaro at Flat Rock?

That actually isn't a bad idea. To go one step further, Ford could codevelop a new Mustang with another manufacturer who wants a RWD v8/turbo 4 car in their lineup. Honda/Nissan may want a new Z now that Nissan's FM platform is coming to an end. Or maybe VW wants a quick Scirocco now that the EV market is not going well.

[morgan20]

5 hours ago, twintornados said:

Maybe Ford could "contract build" Camaro at Flat Rock?

 

5 minutes ago, atomcat68 said:

That actually isn't a bad idea. To go one step further, Ford could codevelop a new Mustang with another manufacturer who wants a RWD v8/turbo 4 car in their lineup. Honda/Nissan may want a new Z now that Nissan's FM platform is coming to an end. Or maybe VW wants a quick Scirocco now that the EV market is not going well.

 

I like those ideas too. But aren't Ford and GM both known for not invented here syndrome?

 

“Not Invented Here Syndrome” (NIH Syndrome) is a term used in business and technology fields to describe a persistent organizational culture that rejects new ideas or innovations from external sources, preferring to develop everything in-house. This attitude typically stems from a belief that their own team’s capabilities, knowledge, and work are superior to others. This syndrome creates a barrier to implementing and adopting outside technologies or solutions, often leading to inefficiency and a lack of adaptation to new, potentially advantageous techniques or systems

[akirby]

22 hours ago, morgan20 said:

 

 

I like those ideas too. But aren't Ford and GM both known for not invented here syndrome?

 

“Not Invented Here Syndrome” (NIH Syndrome) is a term used in business and technology fields to describe a persistent organizational culture that rejects new ideas or innovations from external sources, preferring to develop everything in-house. This attitude typically stems from a belief that their own team’s capabilities, knowledge, and work are superior to others. This syndrome creates a barrier to implementing and adopting outside technologies or solutions, often leading to inefficiency and a lack of adaptation to new, potentially advantageous techniques or systems

Did t stop them from jointly designing multiple transmissions with them.

Edited January 18 by akirby

[tbone]

12 minutes ago, akirby said:

Did t stop them from joining toy designing multiple transmissions.

it’s always been a rivalry segment, so I’m not certain Chevrolet would be willing to have Ford build their vehicle, although it would make economic sense. Enthusiast will just be saying that it’s a rebadged Mustang, even though it likely would not be.  

[Sherminator98]

On 1/17/2025 at 12:37 AM, Biker16 said:

 

I don't know; building a low-volume product like the mustang in an underutilized factory is a recipe for failure, no matter how amortized the product is. 

 

 

 

Your not wrong there, that is why I expect the Mustang, once it moves to a new EV platform to move to a different plant. 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Sherminator98 said:

 

Your not wrong there, that is why I expect the Mustang, once it moves to a new EV platform to move to a different plant. 

I still think they could move it to Chicago if they really wanted to.  Especially at lower volumes.