Terminate Jim Farley as leader at the next meeting

[mackinaw]

37 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Ford sales are Dismal in Europe and not any better in China. I don’t think they’ll be in either market much longer if the trend keeps up. 

 

Amazingly, Ford made nearly one billion dollars in profit last year in China.  Most of this was due to exports.  

[Sherminator98]

4 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Ford sales are Dismal in Europe and not any better in China. I don’t think they’ll be in either market much longer if the trend keeps up. 

 

I can see Ford not competing in the passenger car market in the EU, but I think I'll stay as Ford Pro to sell vans and trucks. 

[SoonerLS]

11 hours ago, Sherminator98 said:

Ford stock is worth next to nothing because the Ford family owns a controlling interest. There is no way their stock goes as high as GM or Toyota because of that. 

Yep. We’ve discussed this ad nauseum over the years, but Ford’s stock price will always lag because of their two-tiered stock structure where the Ford family controls the voting stock. That keeps out big investors, like institutional investors, because they can’t buy any control over the company—no matter how much Ford common stock you buy, you don’t get any say in how the company is run. 
 

On the minus side it keeps the stock lower in price, but on the plus side it keeps the likes of Carl Icahn and other activist investors away. 

Edited February 24 by SoonerLS
Thank you, autoincorrect

[mackinaw]

24 minutes ago, SoonerLS said:

Yep. We’ve discussed this ad nauseum over the years, but Ford’s stock price will anyways lag because of their two-tiered stock structure where the Ford family controls the voting stock. That keeps out big investors, like institutional investors, because they can’t buy any control over the company—no matter how much Ford common stock you buy, you don’t get any say in how the company is run. 
 

On the minus side it keeps the stock lower in price, but on the plus side it keeps the likes of Carl Icahn and other activist investors away. 

 

Absolutely correct.  Here's a quote from a Detroit News article (behind paywall) about how Detroit could react to Trump's regulatory rollback.  Erik Gordon of U-M talks about how powerful investors can be:

 

"Can they resist pressure from investors is a tough question, because it's not just a matter of personal fortitude," said Erik Gordon, a law and business professor at the University of Michigan's Ross School of Business.  He continued: "It's not accurate to frame it as, 'Are the big shots of the car companies courageous enough to stand up to the investors?' — because the investors can win. The investors can get you fired. You can have all of the courage you want and just be fired."

 

Very few people realize how controlling the investment community can be.  They are not your friend.

 

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2025/02/21/automakers-mixed-on-trump-cues-of-regulatory-slashing-analysts-warn-ev-pullback-ford-gm-stellantis/79303237007/

[rmc523]

21 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Ford sales are Dismal in Europe and not any better in China. I don’t think they’ll be in either market much longer if the trend keeps up. 

 

That tends to happen when they start dropping all the popular models.....

[akirby]

Reminder - sales are not necessarily profitable.

[DeluxeStang]

58 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

That tends to happen when they start dropping all the popular models.....

There were rumors of Ford leveraging CE1 to bring back the fiesta/focus, or some other comparable model. If there aren't at least some internal meetings at least entertaining this idea, than Ford needs new leadership. We can debate killing cars from the N. American market if that was a good or bad decision, but those hatchbacks are a way of life in Europe. 

 

The focus and fiesta are objectively passion products, the sporty variants in particular. If CE1 paves the path for small car profitability, there's no good reason not to bring them back. Ford needs to rebuild their reputation, that's not gonna happen by giving us a bunch of generic EV blobs, it happens by being bold, and revisiting all of Ford's greatest hits.

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

 

That tends to happen when they start dropping all the popular models.....

Killing the fiesta and focus on Europe is like killing the explorer or f-series in our market, that's how iconic those products are. Work on profitability using affordable platforms, and shared components, and find a way to revive those kinds of cars in Europe in a way that's actually gonna be profitable for Ford. 

[tbone]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

Killing the fiesta and focus on Europe is like killing the explorer or f-series in our market, that's how iconic those products are. Work on profitability using affordable platforms, and shared components, and find a way to revive those kinds of cars in Europe in a way that's actually gonna be profitable for Ford. 

Brilliant plan right.  

[akirby]

3 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

The focus and fiesta are objectively passion products, the sporty variants in particular.

No they’re not.  The ST and RS models were but nobody bought them.  They’re just cheap basic transportation that have to compete on price alone.

[akirby]

3 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Killing the fiesta and focus on Europe is like killing the explorer or f-series in our market, that's how iconic those products are. Work on profitability using affordable platforms, and shared components, and find a way to revive those kinds of cars in Europe in a way that's actually gonna be profitable for Ford. 

The two best selling segments in Europe are small and compact SUVs.  Also 4 out of the top 6 segments.  They’re moving to crossovers and away from cars just like North America.

[Dequindre]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

Reminder - sales are not necessarily profitable.

True, but there is an opportunity cost in axing affordable models in the pursuit of profit on a smaller number of vehicles. By doing so, they are not creating a pipeline of Ford loyal buyers. Instead, they are having to market more intensely to try and justify the increased prices. Do vehicles like the European Explorer and Capri really move the needle enough on this front? 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Dequindre said:

True, but there is an opportunity cost in axing affordable models in the pursuit of profit on a smaller number of vehicles. By doing so, they are not creating a pipeline of Ford loyal buyers. Instead, they are having to market more intensely to try and justify the increased prices.

Urban myth.  People who buy cheap cars aren’t brand loyal.  By contrast Ford’s current products enjoy a lot of conquest sales.  

[DeluxeStang]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

No they’re not.  The ST and RS models were but nobody bought them.  They’re just cheap basic transportation that have to compete on price alone.

On this, we can agree. When I say passion products and icons, let me clarify, I'm talking about the st and RS stuff, not the boring rental shit. Revisiting a hatchback line where all the models had more styling and performance flair across the board might be the key to making people care about Ford hatchbacks again.

[tbone]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Urban myth.  People who buy cheap cars aren’t brand loyal.  By contrast Ford’s current products enjoy a lot of conquest sales.  

I know this is routinely your position, but do you actually have any statistics that can back this claim up? I’m not trying to be argumentative, I would just like to know.

 

I don’t hold that same position. I believe there is a benefit to getting people into your brand at an early age, which typically means in more affordable cars. Once a person has a connection to a certain brand, and that experience is good, I believe they will consider them again. This is purely anecdotal based on my observations, people I know, etc., so I don’t have statistics to back up my statement.  

[AM222]

18 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

That tends to happen when they start dropping all the popular models.....

I remember when Ford discontinued the Fiesta in Europe, there was a report showing that the subcompact segment didn't shrink, Ford just lost sales to rival brands who didn't abandon the popular segment in Europe. 

In 2024, the RAV4 (475,193 units) outsold the F150 (460,915 units) in the US, the full-size truck's primary market. 
It's also interesting to point out that there are 3 sedans in the top 10. Half the vehicles are compact (C-segment) models. 

-Forbes

Mr. Farley is great when it comes to Iconic models like the Mustang, Bronco, & F150, not so good when it comes to keeping mainstream models competitive. Many discontinued models used to be global models.

So far, it's been a case of "the competition is beating us, let's just quit, abandon the segment and tell people the segment is dead".

Edited February 25 by AM222

[AM222]

15 hours ago, akirby said:

The two best selling segments in Europe are small and compact SUVs.  Also 4 out of the top 6 segments.  They’re moving to crossovers and away from cars just like North America.

In the US, there are 3 cars in the top 10 best-selling vehicles of 2024, the Camry (6th place), Corolla (7th place), and Civic (9th place). 
In Europe, 6 of the top 10 best-selling vehicles of 2024 are cars, the other 4 are crossovers. The top 3 are small hatchbacks.

Even if the US is not the main market for hot hatchbacks, it's interesting to see them compete in the space Ford left. 

Edited February 25 by AM222

[Rick73]

45 minutes ago, AM222 said:

I remember when Ford discontinued the Fiesta in Europe, there was a report showing that the subcompact segment didn't shrink, Ford just lost sales to rival brands who didn't abandon the popular segment in Europe. 

In 2024, the RAV4 (475,193 units) outsold the F150 (460,915 units) in the US, the full-size truck's primary market. 
It's also interesting to point out that there are 3 sedans in the top 10. Half the vehicles are compact (C-segment) models. 

-Forbes

Mr. Farley is great when it comes to Iconic models like the Mustang, Bronco, & F150, not so good when it comes to keeping mainstream models competitive. Many discontinued models used to be global models.

So far, it's been a case of "the competition is beating us, let's just quit, abandon the segment and tell people the segment is dead".

Did you happen to see RAM 1500 number?  I knew they had tough year but not making list, and falling below Sierra 1500 is surprising.

[rmc523]

7 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Did you happen to see RAM 1500 number?  I knew they had tough year but not making list, and falling below Sierra 1500 is surprising.

 

Ram's sales dropped quite a bit last year.

[akirby]

10 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

On this, we can agree. When I say passion products and icons, let me clarify, I'm talking about the st and RS stuff, not the boring rental shit. Revisiting a hatchback line where all the models had more styling and performance flair across the board might be the key to making people care about Ford hatchbacks again.

But that may not be enough volume to be viable as a stand alone model.  You need the boring stuff to subsidize the exciting stuff but you can’t make much money on the boring stuff.  So it really comes down to whether it’s worth the investment for say a 2% overall margin.

 

Its a lot easier if you already have a cheap well amortized platform and infrastructure.

[akirby]

10 hours ago, tbone said:

I know this is routinely your position, but do you actually have any statistics that can back this claim up? I’m not trying to be argumentative, I would just like to know.

 

I don’t hold that same position. I believe there is a benefit to getting people into your brand at an early age, which typically means in more affordable cars. Once a person has a connection to a certain brand, and that experience is good, I believe they will consider them again. This is purely anecdotal based on my observations, people I know, etc., so I don’t have statistics to back up my statement.  

Here is one article but it’s mostly just common sense understanding how people shop for vehicles and looking at various conquest rates.  And understanding how young people today view cars and driving and purchases which is very different than our generation.  

 

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Why-Brand-Loyalty-Takes-a-Backseat-for-American-Car-Buyers.html#:~:text=Nearly half of Americans are,loyal to a specific carmaker.

 

[ANTAUS]

1 hour ago, AM222 said:

So far, it's been a case of "the competition is beating us, let's just quit, abandon the segment and tell people the segment is dead".

I saw that same pattern long ago with the Ford Freestar long ago, "we aren't competitive, let's say it's a dying market" and exit. Meanwhile, Oddity, Sienna, Caravan still soldiered on and Kia/Hyundai entered the market...

[akirby]

53 minutes ago, AM222 said:

In the US, there are 3 cars in the top 10 best-selling vehicles of 2024, the Camry (6th place), Corolla (7th place), and Civic (9th place). 
In Europe, 6 of the top 10 best-selling vehicles of 2024 are cars, the other 4 are crossovers. The top 3 are small hatchbacks.

Even if the US is not the main market for hot hatchbacks, it's interesting to see them compete in the space Ford left. 

 

All you talk about is sales volume.  F150 brings in almost twice the revenue as RAV4 and probably generates 8-10 times more profit.

 

Bronco, Ranger, Bronco Sport and Maverick replaced Fusion and Focus and generate significantly higher revenue and profit margins.

 

It’s not about what you can sell - it’s about what you can sell at a good profit margin.  Ford has choices like Bronco and Bronco Sport that other mfrs don’t have.  And while its true that Ford’s cost structure for cheap cars was always too high and that having a lower cost platform like Toyota and Hyundai would yield better margins - the cost for Ford to do that right now is too high when they have better options on the table.

 

The opportunity for Ford is to change that with CE1 since that’s a clean sheet design and represents a new market segment much like Maverick.

[akirby]

9 minutes ago, ANTAUS said:

I saw that same pattern long ago with the Ford Freestar long ago, "we aren't competitive, let's say it's a dying market" and exit. Meanwhile, Oddity, Sienna, Caravan still soldiered on and Kia/Hyundai entered the market...

But the question is how much does it cost in terms of money and other resources to become competitive and is that money better spent elsewhere.  In the case of Fusion and Focus they didn’t just cancel them - they replaced them with other more profitable products.  
 

Some of you don’t seem to understand that for Ford or any automaker to bring out a new model it requires expansion (more employees, new factories, etc) which usually requires new debt or you have to replace an existing model.  It’s a zero sum game unless you mortgage the future.

[Rick73]

37 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

Ram's sales dropped quite a bit last year.

Found one source stating it was 179,248.  Not sure about accuracy since same source had volume much higher just 5 years ago.  Not sure if they combined all RAM pickups since number was well over 500,000.

 

While searching for RAM sales saw a couple of articles suggesting large pickups may have reached a sales peak.  If so that would not be great news for Ford.  I’m curious what the breakdown is for F-150 sales between business and personal use.  It would seem business use requiring trucks would be less likely to decline, but personal use as daily driver may be a different matter over time.