Our Mustang Mach-E Powers an ENTIRE House! Bidirectional Charging from Sigenergy (V2X)

[Biker16]

Quote

We used our Mustang Mach-E to power an entire house! That's right, it is actually possible to do V2X EV charging with a Mustang Mach-E and OTHER EVs that you didn't think had that capability!!

It's all doable thanks to this new system from Sigenergy! We talk a homeowner that has been using his Mustang Mach-E and Rivian to power his house as part of his home system that includes solar panels, battery storage, and bidirectional charging capabilities.

And not only can it pull power from EVs, it can also charge them using DC at speeds up to 25 kW!

To get all of the details of this versatile system, we also spoke with the CEO of Sigenergy North America. He explains how the components work together and managed by the Signergy app.

 

 

[Rick73]

Thanks for posting interesting and informative video, though wish they had touched on system costs, potential savings, and approximate payback period.  Makes sense that Zigenergy or PointGuard started with solar and battery storage for off-grid applications, like a remote cabin, where investment is more mandatory than based on cost savings.  Also sounds like a great system to have for power outages even when costs may not make sense on a purely financial basis.

 

In video the home owner stated the battery capacity was 16 kW, but the other guy (electrical video “expert”) mentioned 16 kWh which is likely correct.  Either way it’s not a huge system compared to Mach-E battery capacity which puts it in perspective.  The issue I would have to decide is that with stationary lithium batteries becoming so affordable, I would be tempted to add more home storage and not rely on the vehicle’s battery.  If the vehicle’s battery wears out, replacing may cost considerably more per kWh.  Plus early degradation would affect driving range.

 

When I was without power for an entire week last year it confirmed what I already knew (both technically and from previous outages), which is that without using home air conditioning I can get by just fine with very little power and energy.  A simple inexpensive solar system with minimal battery storage would likely suffice most of the time.  On the other hand powering my home’s air conditioner around the clock (or even a few hours) would require a huge system, and a car’s battery would not help much when power outages extend for a week.  It’s not a simple decision, which is also costly and may not get much use for extended periods.

 

Given the risk mentioned in video that Ford could pull the plug on entire system at any time, I would not invest in this bidirectional charging.  Also, charging an electric car that uses $30~50 a month of electricity at most would make investment too high to be worth it for me.  I do like the power backup aspect during power outages though.

 

[twintornados]

A point here is during an extended outage, in theory, you could drive your EV to an off-site location, charge it and bring said charge back home to power your home....even though I don't believe that to be efficient. More like a back up to the home battery pack when the sun is not shining to supplant the system with an extra container of electricity. 

[Rick73]

21 minutes ago, twintornados said:

A point here is during an extended outage, in theory, you could drive your EV to an off-site location, charge it and bring said charge back home to power your home....even though I don't believe that to be efficient. More like a back up to the home battery pack when the sun is not shining to supplant the system with an extra container of electricity. 

For clarity and investment risk perspective, driving an EV to an off-site location would not have been practical or possible for me because the hurricane took out power for a very large area.  It’s happened more than once.  Unless EV had long extended driving range it would have not supplied much benefit by time I got it back home.  However, for shorter power outages of a few hours that have become way too common where I live, I think this system would be a great option versus a stationary generator like my neighbor’s Generac.

 

I hope my power company gets their act together and improves reliability as they claim they are working towards.  For now a 2 kW portable inverter generator can meet all my essential needs at an extremely low cost.

[Sherminator98]

21 hours ago, Rick73 said:

For clarity and investment risk perspective, driving an EV to an off-site location would not have been practical or possible for me because the hurricane took out power for a very large area.  It’s happened more than once.  Unless EV had long extended driving range it would have not supplied much benefit by time I got it back home.  However, for shorter power outages of a few hours that have become way too common where I live, I think this system would be a great option versus a stationary generator like my neighbor’s Generac.

 

Depends on where you live-In the North East, the electrical system is more built up. I know during hurricane Sandy or Irene, the electrical system worked in one area and not other and they where less then 20 miles apart from one another, which is like a 20 minute drive or so and doable without much effort in an EV. Not to mention your not going to get gas either with no power. I ran into this when I was commuting to MD for work before relocating there for a few years. I left work, drove to where I was staying at just to back track to get gas because I was almost empty from the drive. 

 

I know that things like fuel cans at the time where decimated-my parents came to visit me from NJ after Sandy and they couldn't find them all the way down in Delaware or Maryland, which was 2 plus hour drive. 

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, Sherminator98 said:

 

Depends on where you live-In the North East, the electrical system is more built up. I know during hurricane Sandy or Irene, the electrical system worked in one area and not other and they where less then 20 miles apart from one another, which is like a 20 minute drive or so and doable without much effort in an EV. Not to mention your not going to get gas either with no power. I ran into this when I was commuting to MD for work before relocating there for a few years. I left work, drove to where I was staying at just to back track to get gas because I was almost empty from the drive. 

 

I know that things like fuel cans at the time where decimated-my parents came to visit me from NJ after Sandy and they couldn't find them all the way down in Delaware or Maryland, which was 2 plus hour drive. 

Given enough time many people find good solutions to problems.  I know I give people more credit than you do. 😀

 

Seriously though, for short term outages a pure battery backup system that remains fully charged from grid (like UPS) while on standby is becoming much more affordable due to low cost of battery storage.  While checking prices for a different application, found that 16 kWh of LFP battery can presently be purchased for just under $3k.  You’d also need inverter/charger and transfer switch but they too have become reasonable in price.

 

Longer outages could benefit from solar panels charging the battery bank which have also become much more affordable.  Unfortunately in my area, which is wooded, there is almost no residential solar at all.  For longer outages generators are the go to solution. And you’re right that gas cans and fuel storage are a pain in the ass, not to mention could be dangerous too, which is one reason Generac natural gas generators are a great option if you have deep pockets and don’t mind spending the money for a convenience you may only need badly every few years (excluding shorter outages that can be handled with batteries).

 

It’s interesting that Generac now offers a hybrid system with solar/battery combined with generator backup.  I find it interesting because it’s just a larger version of what motorhomes have been doing for a long time now.  In addition to my portable inverter generator I also have battery/inverter power in my camper van.  I mention this only because I use my camper van frequently, so for me it makes much more sense to invest in the camper’s electrical system by adding much larger batteries and faster charging, and then use its capability in emergencies as needed.

 

Even better would be if Ford offered a PHEV van with exportable Pro Power Onboard that solves all of these problems for me so I wouldn’t need a generator, gas cans, solar, or an expensive Generac.  Ford offers it in Europe and I think now also in Australia, but still not in North America.  Such a van already has battery storage, inverter, charger, built-in generator and fuel tank. 😀

 

 

 

 

[Texasota]

2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Even better would be if Ford offered a PHEV van with exportable Pro Power Onboard that solves all of these problems for me so I wouldn’t need a generator, gas cans, solar, or an expensive Generac.  Ford offers it in Europe and I think now also in Australia, but still not in North America.  Such a van already has battery storage, inverter, charger, built-in generator and fuel tank. 😀

This is one (among many) of the reasons I really want a Ranger PHEV. I wish Ford would offer it here in North America. The PPOB could keep the essentials in our house operating for a long time. I have a boat in the garage with a 26 gallon tank that could be siphoned/diverted to the PHEV which would keep me going for even longer.

[Biker16]

21 hours ago, Rick73 said:

For clarity and investment risk perspective, driving an EV to an off-site location would not have been practical or possible for me because the hurricane took out power for a very large area.  It’s happened more than once.  Unless EV had long extended driving range it would have not supplied much benefit by time I got it back home.  However, for shorter power outages of a few hours that have become way too common where I live, I think this system would be a great option versus a stationary generator like my neighbor’s Generac.

 

I hope my power company gets their act together and improves reliability as they claim they are working towards.  For now a 2 kW portable inverter generator can meet all my essential needs at an extremely low cost.

 

 

 I think it would be entirely reasonable to expect public chargers to be available soon after any disaster, much like Gas stations are prioritized for reestablishment. I think it would be sensible for those impacted by power outages to use 8-10 kWh to travel 20-30 miles, bring back 60-100 kWh to power a home for 2-3 days. I have a 7,200 generator that requires a lot of Fuel to run. I was refilling my tanks 2 times a day during an extended outage, never mind the noise they produce. 

There are other advantages in Places with time-based usage rates, but some states have disadvantageous net metering rates. The ability to charge when it is cheap and expend when it is expensive is a good use of the Vehicle Battery.

 https://www.solar.com/learn/nem-3-0-proposal-and-impacts-for-california-homeowners/

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Biker16 said:

 

 I think it would be entirely reasonable to expect public chargers to be available soon after any disaster, much like Gas stations are prioritized for reestablishment. I think it would be sensible for those impacted by power outages to use 8-10 kWh to travel 20-30 miles, bring back 60-100 kWh to power a home for 2-3 days. I have a 7,200 generator that requires a lot of Fuel to run. I was refilling my tanks 2 times a day during an extended outage, never mind the noise they produce. 

There are other advantages in Places with time-based usage rates, but some states have disadvantageous net metering rates. The ability to charge when it is cheap and expend when it is expensive is a good use of the Vehicle Battery.

 https://www.solar.com/learn/nem-3-0-proposal-and-impacts-for-california-homeowners/

Small difference between restoring a gas station and charger station after a hurricane.  Fuel can be trucked in and pumped with small generators.  But it might take a week or two to restore electrical lines even if it’s a priority.  In South Ga after the last Hurricane it took over a month to restore all electrical service.

[Rick73]

2 hours ago, Texasota said:

This is one (among many) of the reasons I really want a Ranger PHEV. I wish Ford would offer it here in North America. The PPOB could keep the essentials in our house operating for a long time. I have a boat in the garage with a 26 gallon tank that could be siphoned/diverted to the PHEV which would keep me going for even longer.

Absolutely.  👍 

 

During the week-long outage last year I was often bored so tracked my power usage closely for future equipment planning, and was surprised that I could power my lights, fridge, alarm, internet, large TV, and one overhead fan with between 200 and 500 Watts.  Unfortunately my 2200/1800 Watt inverter generator is not very efficient at those low loads, but even so used little gas except at night when I powered a 5,000 BTU/hour window air conditioner.  During the day the generator’s engine was near idle, only speeding up when I ran a microwave or coffee maker for a few minutes at a time.  Total energy usage was not that high.  I mention this only because a hybrid charging system is ideal for these kinds of loads.  It’s far more efficient to use an engine-driven generator at efficient power level while charging the battery bank (or PHEV’s battery) over a short period of time and then power low wattage loads from battery over longer periods.  Plus a PHEV would be much quieter except an hour or two a day.

 

Operation would be nearly identical to what campers have been doing over last few years since lithium batteries became cheap, provided air conditioning is not needed.  RVers run the generator for an hour or so to charge house batteries enough to then power miscellaneous low-power loads during the day or at night.  Many campgrounds allow 1 hour of generator use in morning and one hour in evening so large battery bank is not needed anyway.

 

The Ford Transit Custom PHEV and Ranger PHEV both have just over 10 kWh batteries IIRC which means that I could power my house’s critical needs easily for an entire day without having to charge.  And the great news is that a PHEV can self charge very quickly so it would only need to run minutes a day, not hours like a generator.  I would guess needing less than a gallon or two of gas a day, well within fuel capacity of a PHEV even if over a week or so.

 

[Rick73]

3 hours ago, Biker16 said:

 I think it would be entirely reasonable to expect public chargers to be available soon after any disaster, much like Gas stations are prioritized for reestablishment. I think it would be sensible for those impacted by power outages to use 8-10 kWh to travel 20-30 miles, bring back 60-100 kWh to power a home for 2-3 days. I have a 7,200 generator that requires a lot of Fuel to run. I was refilling my tanks 2 times a day during an extended outage, never mind the noise they produce. 

As akirby said, it’s a completely different level of power requirement.  Also to consider is that gas stations are crucial so that first responders and their equipment can function, and also critical personnel can get to hospitals, clinics, shelters, etc..  During severe outages most people shelter in place and hunker down, so don’t drive much anyway unless they have an alternate place to go.  One of my biggest concerns with electrification has been the issue of widespread power outages.  When nearly 100% of vehicles run on electricity, how are truly critical needs going to be met during long-term outages?  As of right now we don’t have a way to cope with such widespread demand if all vehicles were BEV.

 

For what it is worth, people died from heat, so city of Houston made plans for portable generators to power air conditioners in emergency shelters.  That requires much less power than EV chargers and is likely considered a much higher priority by most people.

 

One thing we can certainly do if we have an EV that can power the house is to charge it with a generator.  Essentially use the car’s battery to store generator energy for use at slower rates around the clock without having to run generator 24-7.  Depending on conditions that could save a lot of fuel and therefore extend run time.

[Texasota]

46 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

One thing we can certainly do if we have an EV that can power the house is to charge it with a generator.  Essentially use the car’s battery to store generator energy for use at slower rates around the clock without having to run generator 24-7.  Depending on conditions that could save a lot of fuel and therefore extend run time.

Basically emulating a PHEV with PPOB but noisier.

Edited September 9 by Texasota

[Biker16]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

Small difference between restoring a gas station and charger station after a hurricane.  Fuel can be trucked in and pumped with small generators.  But it might take a week or two to restore electrical lines even if it’s a priority.  In South Ga after the last Hurricane it took over a month to restore all electrical service.

 

Most new gas stations use three-phase power just like fast chargers do. 

 

My basic research on this subject after that hurricane last year found that even in the most hard-hit areas of North Carolina there were Tesla chargers and other fast chargers still available. Less than 10 mi from major outages. I think the point is there is no certainty of when or where. Power will be restored but having abundant EV fast chargers reduces the risk that you won't be able to find a place to charge. Even then you can still find a to a level two or 240 volt outlet, to charge your vehicle in a pinch. 

[mackinaw]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

Small difference between restoring a gas station and charger station after a hurricane.  Fuel can be trucked in and pumped with small generators.  But it might take a week or two to restore electrical lines even if it’s a priority.  In South Ga after the last Hurricane it took over a month to restore all electrical service.

 

Northern Michigan experienced a devastating ice storm back in late March.  We had no power for nine days, friends were out for more two weeks.  Downtown was literally shut down, with just a hospital and two gas stations open (they were on generators).  Our Tesla Supercharger and Electrify America stations were out of action for several days.  If you had a Tesla or any EV, you were out of luck.  But you had no problem filling up the tank of your ICE vehicle, though you may have had to wait in line for 30 minutes (shades of the gas crisis of the '70's).  While this ice storm was a one-in-a-hundred year event, it further soured me on owning a EV, at least for now).  

[twintornados]

11 hours ago, mackinaw said:

 

Northern Michigan experienced a devastating ice storm back in late March.  We had no power for nine days, friends were out for more two weeks.  Downtown was literally shut down, with just a hospital and two gas stations open (they were on generators).  Our Tesla Supercharger and Electrify America stations were out of action for several days.  If you had a Tesla or any EV, you were out of luck.  But you had no problem filling up the tank of your ICE vehicle, though you may have had to wait in line for 30 minutes (shades of the gas crisis of the '70's).  While this ice storm was a one-in-a-hundred year event, it further soured me on owning a EV, at least for now).  

 

What I got from that is there should've been an EV charging station (or several in different locations) on a uninterruptible power supply or generator in a declared emergency situation. It is getting to that point now with further adoption of EV's. Maybe the National Guard or other emergency services units could have towed in a manned generator unit so that people with EV's would have a place to re-fuel in those times. 

 

https://www.greenovapower.com/portable-ev-charger

Edited September 10 by twintornados

[Rick73]

12 hours ago, Biker16 said:

Most new gas stations use three-phase power just like fast chargers do.

We must compare the “quantity” of required power for this subject to make any sense at all.  In simple terms, a tanker that delivers 6,000 gallons (or more) of fuel to a gas station provides enough energy to power vehicles for at least a combined 120,000 miles if at an average of 20 MPG.  We should be doing much better MPG but that’s a different issue.  Point is a tanker of gas covers a lot of critical driving, and also gas for generators, but what’s actually important is that a gas station’s generator would need very little energy to pump that 6,000 gallons of fuel from the underground tanks into the vehicles’ tanks.  Pumps require very little power to operate compared to a Supercharger or normal EV connection.  Each pump on average requires less than 1% of power of a Tesla Supercharger’s single stall at full load, yet can fill a vehicle to drive +/- 400 miles in 5 minutes.  It’s orders of magnitude different.
 

Actually kind of funny that in some cases the gas station’s backup generator can be much larger in order to keep the convenience store’s part of station in business.  Air conditioning and coolers plus other stuff can use a lot of power compared to pumps.

 

Anyway, point is that a gas station’s generator’s energy requirement is extremely low compared to the energy they supply to vehicles.  It’s so low it’s not worth estimating accurately.  Again, a typical gas station’s generator can’t even power one Supercharger stall at rated load.

 

Having stated obvious EV-charging limitations, the bad news for ICE is that getting fuel tankers to gas stations during widespread outages isn’t easy either.  In my area there was a shortage of tankers, traffic was a mess due to lights being out (and that’s with most people staying home), eventual fuel shortage at suppliers, etc.  There is no easy answer beyond everyone doing their part by conserving as much as possible.

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, twintornados said:

 

What I got from that is there should've been an EV charging station (or several in different locations) on a uninterruptible power supply or generator in a declared emergency situation. It is getting to that point now with further adoption of EV's. Maybe the National Guard or other emergency services units could have towed in a manned generator unit so that people with EV's would have a place to re-fuel in those times. 

 

https://www.greenovapower.com/portable-ev-charger

Investment funding would be tough to get for something that may get very little use during normal times.  Other than taxpayers being forced to pay for such “backup” system, I doubt any investor would.  Generating profit if viewed as a business may not be achievable.

 

Backup generators are essentially what we are drifting towards in my area but at larger scale.  Portable gas turbines and diesel generators that can be connected to grid at critical locations as needed may see greater use.  Still, when a widespread outage affects millions of people it’s difficult to get them all power just to meet essential needs.

[twintornados]

30 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Investment funding would be tough to get for something that may get very little use during normal times.  Other than taxpayers being forced to pay for such “backup” system, I doubt any investor would.  Generating profit if viewed as a business may not be achievable.

 

Backup generators are essentially what we are drifting towards in my area but at larger scale.  Portable gas turbines and diesel generators that can be connected to grid at critical locations as needed may see greater use.  Still, when a widespread outage affects millions of people it’s difficult to get them all power just to meet essential needs.

 

Well, if you own an EV and only an EV....getting it charged in a declared emergency IS essential....

 

 

[mackinaw]

5 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

What I got from that is there should've been an EV charging station (or several in different locations) on a uninterruptible power supply or generator in a declared emergency situation. It is getting to that point now with further adoption of EV's. Maybe the National Guard or other emergency services units could have towed in a manned generator unit so that people with EV's would have a place to re-fuel in those times. 

 

https://www.greenovapower.com/portable-ev-charger

 

The ice storm was over several different counties affecting many small rural towns.  I just gave you one example, multiply that by 20 or so for the real impact.  EV charging stations were low on the list of priorities when they started restoring power.  Homes came first.  And it's ironic that all of the generators people bought to provide electricity for their homes were powered by a gas engine.  That's one reason you waited 30 minutes to get gas, people were filling gas cans to take home to power their generators.

[twintornados]

2 hours ago, mackinaw said:

 

The ice storm was over several different counties affecting many small rural towns.  I just gave you one example, multiply that by 20 or so for the real impact.  EV charging stations were low on the list of priorities when they started restoring power.  Homes came first.  And it's ironic that all of the generators people bought to provide electricity for their homes were powered by a gas engine.  That's one reason you waited 30 minutes to get gas, people were filling gas cans to take home to power their generators.

 

See my reply about missing the point....

[Rick73]

We live in a free country, and if an EV is not right or owner can’t deal with its occasional limitations, they can choose an ICE, HEV, PHEV, or EREV instead.  Doesn’t get much simpler than that.  
 

 

Back to specific topic, another solution mentioned in OP video is to add lots of solar on EV owners’ homes that can charge vehicles during outages.  Keep in mind very few EV owners enjoy this level of luxury because it’s expensive.  To quote Yellowstone series, “cool shit ain’t cheap”.   IIRC the guy in video lives in San Diego in what appears to be a nice house so he’s probably rich, or maybe in lots of debt. 😀

[Texasota]

6 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Back to specific topic, another solution mentioned in OP video is to add lots of solar on EV owners’ homes that can charge vehicles during outages.  Keep in mind very few EV owners enjoy this level of luxury because it’s expensive.  To quote Yellowstone series, “cool shit ain’t cheap”.   IIRC the guy in video lives in San Diego in what appears to be a nice house so he’s probably rich, or maybe in lots of debt. 😀

Most residential solar systems that are grid connected do not operate when grid power fails. This is a code requirement to avoid back-feeding the grid and killing power line workers. To get around this limitation a home solar system starts getting much more expensive as you mentioned.

[Rick73]

2 minutes ago, Texasota said:

Most residential solar systems that are grid connected do not operate when grid power fails. This is a code requirement to avoid back-feeding the grid and killing power line workers. To get around this limitation a home solar system starts getting much more expensive as you mentioned.

Yeah, IIRC the representative mentioned in video that solar panels can charge the 16 kWh battery bank, which can then charge the EV and or power house.  I’d have to watch video again but recall him saying it can work in a couple of different ways.  One for sure is through car’s  charger powered by system’s inverter.  I think he also mentions direct DC-DC charging but I’m not sure.  It would require voltage boost since vehicle battery is at much higher voltage.

[akirby]

10 hours ago, Texasota said:

Most residential solar systems that are grid connected do not operate when grid power fails. This is a code requirement to avoid back-feeding the grid and killing power line workers. To get around this limitation a home solar system starts getting much more expensive as you mentioned.

Can’t you just use a lockout switch like generators?

[fordmantpw]

9 minutes ago, akirby said:

Can’t you just use a lockout switch like generators?

 

Yes.  But, most grid-tied systems rely on the grid to synchronize the phase as well, so you generally need a battery of some sort to store the solar energy if the grid goes down.  You can't just have the solar switch over and start feeding your house. It gets expensive quick to have the option to run off-grid.  We had the option when we had our system put in, but we decided it wasn't worth it.  In the 11 years we've lived here, we've been without power maybe a total of 4-6 hours over that timeframe.