Sherminator98 Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-ceo-says-customers-are-not-interested-in-75000-evs-110019792.html Quote "We've learned ... people are not willing to pay [a] $30,000 premium for that big battery on a [$50,000], $60,000 utility," Farley told Yahoo Finance at Ford's Accelerate Pro conference in Detroit, Mich. "But they're willing to buy a $30,000 EV if they save $2,000 a year compared to gas costs." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 And I am also not interested in $75,000 pickups, SUVs, ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 1 hour ago, lfeg said: And I am also not interested in $75,000 pickups, SUVs, ... https://www.donsfordofutica.com/new-Utica-2025-Ford-Mustang-Dark+Horse-1FA6P8R0XS5504378 What about a $76K Mustang? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 (edited) The collapse of Cybertruck orders was a sobering moment, as was the current modest sales volume of Lightning Farley is a bit like the character, Toad from the wind in the willows, always rushing from one fad to another…. I would caution people regarding the new big thing, Ford is only gearing up for Mid Sized BEV because it saves them a lot o money, not because it’s what buyers want and don’t think you’ll see that bargain price on arrival, we’ve been through that before Edited October 1 by jpd80 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 Well, apparently nobody should be interested in buying any us manufactured EVs either. Why would they when your own CEO suggest they suck compared to the Chinese. This guy is unbelievable. Ford CEO Jim Farley Says Tesla, GM, And Blue Oval Are No Match For Chinese https://fordauthority.com/2025/10/ford-ceo-jim-farley-says-tesla-gm-and-blue-oval-are-no-match-for-chinese/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 Chinese market is very different and heavily influenced by the government, strong BEV sales means the power comes from locally generated electricity, not imported gasoline and diesel plus, it presents as breaking from big oil… Also, China has been basically funding a National competition to find the strongest BEV companies that deserve to survive, roll them out across the country, then rest of world markets, first main stop is Europe but at some time, they are gonna try to get into the US market, even with strong tariffs they may be prepared to “buy” the market….already starting in Australia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 15 hours ago, tbone said: Well, apparently nobody should be interested in buying any us manufactured EVs either. Why would they when your own CEO suggest they suck compared to the Chinese. This guy is unbelievable. Ford CEO Jim Farley Says Tesla, GM, And Blue Oval Are No Match For Chinese https://fordauthority.com/2025/10/ford-ceo-jim-farley-says-tesla-gm-and-blue-oval-are-no-match-for-chinese/ Because A - they’re not sold here and B - he expects CE1 to fix that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 Farley mentioned innovation and lower costs. If not for our import restrictions, would any GM, Tesla, or Ford vehicle including upcoming CE1 be able to compete with sub $15k Seagull and similar? I realize it’s a subjective issue, but I think most people/buyers are biased towards low costs over features that are not necessary, at least until cost of such features become increasingly low. IMO Tesla’s FSD is a good example on market acceptance, or lack thereof. I personally like that Farley has recently made reference to vehicles needing to be simpler. Can’t agree more, though at same time know some buyers want all the gadgets they can afford. Must be tough for manufacturers given buyers appear polarized on what a vehicle should be, and not just technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 23 minutes ago, Rick73 said: Farley mentioned innovation and lower costs. If not for our import restrictions, would any GM, Tesla, or Ford vehicle including upcoming CE1 be able to compete with sub $15k Seagull and similar? Thats a non starter. You can’t build and sell a $15k BEV without huge government subsidies. That’s why Chinese tariffs and restrictions are necessary - it’s not a level playing field. Within China they all get subsidies so it’s level there but not for exports. It would be like the government giving Tesla $20k per vehicle and asking Ford and GM to compete with that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 16 minutes ago, akirby said: Thats a non starter. You can’t build and sell a $15k BEV without huge government subsidies. That’s why Chinese tariffs and restrictions are necessary - it’s not a level playing field. Within China they all get subsidies so it’s level there but not for exports. It would be like the government giving Tesla $20k per vehicle and asking Ford and GM to compete with that. That’s definitely part of the issue but not the entire story in my opinion. At top of story tbone linked in his post, there’s a picture of a BYD Seagull which seems appropriate for the subject matter. The Seagull is apparently very popular in many world markets, probably because it’s basic transportation at an affordable price. In other words it provides good value to budget minded buyers. Setting aside tariffs and other restrictions for a second, why do US manufacturers not build a “Seagull” equivalent for North America? The answer is always the same, that there’s no demand, right? But if that’s the case, why worry about a Chinese vehicle that won’t sell anyway? Chinese government subsidies are part of issue, but I also believe Chinese auto manufacturers are willing to compete with vehicles that American manufacturers don’t want to have to build. Reasonable tariffs can compensate for price disparity but do US manufacturers want Seagull-type vehicles sold well under $20k? Maybe US manufacturers want to only sell more expensive vehicles with higher profit margins and don’t want Chinese to compete in N.A. at all regardless of properly-adjusted prices. I agree government subsidies play a role but don’t see how that alone explains as an example how a Fiat 500e should cost twice as much as a BYD Seagull of roughly similar size and capabilities (I’m assuming after hefty tariff on Seagull). Granted Fiat may be a better car but buyers should have option to choose how much “better” they want to pay for. Just a different perspective on why we fear Chinese competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 2 minutes ago, Rick73 said: That’s definitely part of the issue but not the entire story in my opinion. At top of story tbone linked in his post, there’s a picture of a BYD Seagull which seems appropriate for the subject matter. The Seagull is apparently very popular in many world markets, probably because it’s basic transportation at an affordable price. In other words it provides good value to budget minded buyers. Setting aside tariffs and other restrictions for a second, why do US manufacturers not build a “Seagull” equivalent for North America? The answer is always the same, that there’s no demand, right? But if that’s the case, why worry about a Chinese vehicle that won’t sell anyway? Chinese government subsidies are part of issue, but I also believe Chinese auto manufacturers are willing to compete with vehicles that American manufacturers don’t want to have to build. Reasonable tariffs can compensate for price disparity but do US manufacturers want Seagull-type vehicles sold well under $20k? Maybe US manufacturers want to only sell more expensive vehicles with higher profit margins and don’t want Chinese to compete in N.A. at all regardless of properly-adjusted prices. I agree government subsidies play a role but don’t see how that alone explains as an example how a Fiat 500e should cost twice as much as a BYD Seagull of roughly similar size and capabilities (I’m assuming after hefty tariff on Seagull). Granted Fiat may be a better car but buyers should have option to choose how much “better” they want to pay for. Just a different perspective on why we fear Chinese competition. I don't recall where the link was - I'm pretty sure it was posted here somewhere, but i remember reading that Chinese dealers are actually waaaay overproducing and giving vehicles away for like half off. This isn't the article, but it talks about some of it. https://www.cnn.com/2025/09/26/cars/chinese-electric-cars-price-wars-intl-hnk-dst Also, the measures aren't against the car nobody wants, it's for the other models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM222 Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 (edited) 5 hours ago, Rick73 said: Farley mentioned innovation and lower costs. If not for our import restrictions, would any GM, Tesla, or Ford vehicle including upcoming CE1 be able to compete with sub $15k Seagull and similar? By the way, in most export markets the BYD Seagull starts higher than $15K USD. An average starting price for the Seagull in South America is $20,000. In Europe the average starting price for the Seagull (where it's been renamed Dolphin Surf) is $26,000. In the Philippines the Seagull starts at under $16,000 because of the excise tax exemption for BEVs. BYD Seagull is roughly the size of a Mitsubishi Mirage hatchback, it's just a bit shorter in length and a tad wider and taller. PS: PHEV & eREV models of BYD are also responsible for the rapid growth of the Chinese brand. Edited October 2 by AM222 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 6 hours ago, akirby said: Because A - they’re not sold here and B - he expects CE1 to fix that. I admire the hell out of his approach. He could stand there pounding his chest saying Ford is perfect, and none of their rivals can come close to them. But that mentality would only lead to Ford falling further behind. Actually giving credit to your competition, and openly stating where your company needs to improve, how you can better your products and the way you develop them, that's how you win. We're so used to seeing these leaders lie, or hide stuff from us, Farley doing the opposite is a strength, not a weakness. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 4 hours ago, rmc523 said: Also, the measures aren't against the car nobody wants, it's for the other models. Yeah, though other higher-cost Chinese models already have American counterparts to compete except on price, which can be handled with reasonable tariffs to offset their government incentives. It’s when tariffs are so high that they essentially prevent any and all competition that the issue gets messy. Anyway, my point remains that our manufacturers may not want super low cost electric vehicles in our market at all for fear of possible disruption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 11 minutes ago, AM222 said: By the way, in most export markets the BYD Seagull starts higher than $15K USD. An average starting price for the Seagull in South America is $20,000. In Europe the average starting price for the Seagull (where it's been renamed Dolphin Surf) is $26,000. In the Philippines it starts at under $16,000 because of the excise tax exemption for BEVs. BYD Seagull is roughly the size of a Mitsubishi Mirage hatchback, it's just a bit shorter in length and a tad wider and taller. I’m aware it’s higher cost, but does that $20k price reflect their actual cost or is it a result of most countries limiting import through tariffs or other means? The Seagull’s price is so low in their own market that it would seem its volume is being limited by other governments. Not sure how price ends up doubling, more or less. I’ll have to see price once they have been manufactured in Brazil for a while, as an example, where some speculate price may drop from imported $20k to around $16k for Brazilian made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texasota Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said: Actually giving credit to your competition, and openly stating where your company needs to improve, how you can better your products and the way you develop them, that's how you win. We're so used to seeing these leaders lie, or hide stuff from us, Farley doing the opposite is a strength, not a weakness. I agree. Farley also did this with Tesla and developed a respectful relationship with Musk. This was an important factor with Ford being the first to gain access to the Tesla charging infrastructure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texasota Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rick73 said: I’m aware it’s higher cost, but does that $20k price reflect their actual cost or is it a result of most countries limiting import through tariffs or other means? The Seagull’s price is so low in their own market that it would seem its volume is being limited by other governments. Not sure how price ends up doubling, more or less. I’ll have to see price once they have been manufactured in Brazil for a while, as an example, where some speculate price may drop from imported $20k to around $16k for Brazilian made. It is not only about price and Chinese government subsidies. There are also valid security concerns with the Chinese software embedded in these internet connected vehicles. There are legitimate concerns of per-positioned malware in Chinese products. Solar panels in Japan are currently being investigated for this same issue. Edited October 2 by Texasota Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 6 hours ago, Rick73 said: That’s definitely part of the issue but not the entire story in my opinion. At top of story tbone linked in his post, there’s a picture of a BYD Seagull which seems appropriate for the subject matter. The Seagull is apparently very popular in many world markets, probably because it’s basic transportation at an affordable price. In other words it provides good value to budget minded buyers. Setting aside tariffs and other restrictions for a second, why do US manufacturers not build a “Seagull” equivalent for North America? The answer is always the same, that there’s no demand, right? But if that’s the case, why worry about a Chinese vehicle that won’t sell anyway? Chinese government subsidies are part of issue, but I also believe Chinese auto manufacturers are willing to compete with vehicles that American manufacturers don’t want to have to build. Reasonable tariffs can compensate for price disparity but do US manufacturers want Seagull-type vehicles sold well under $20k? Maybe US manufacturers want to only sell more expensive vehicles with higher profit margins and don’t want Chinese to compete in N.A. at all regardless of properly-adjusted prices. I agree government subsidies play a role but don’t see how that alone explains as an example how a Fiat 500e should cost twice as much as a BYD Seagull of roughly similar size and capabilities (I’m assuming after hefty tariff on Seagull). Granted Fiat may be a better car but buyers should have option to choose how much “better” they want to pay for. Just a different perspective on why we fear Chinese competition. Americans don’t want tiny cars. The only reason they sell (in any volume) is if they’re dirt cheap like the Nissan Versa. But there is little to no profit in such a vehicle so why devote factory space and resources to that if you can build and sell larger vehicles that people want to buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM222 Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 (edited) 2 hours ago, Rick73 said: I’m aware it’s higher cost, but does that $20k price reflect their actual cost or is it a result of most countries limiting import through tariffs or other means? The Seagull’s price is so low in their own market that it would seem its volume is being limited by other governments. Not sure how price ends up doubling, more or less. I’ll have to see price once they have been manufactured in Brazil for a while, as an example, where some speculate price may drop from imported $20k to around $16k for Brazilian made. I believe prices have import tariffs. Models like the Mirage-sized Seagull is probably considered too small by 21st century US standards though. Not sure if Ford would go this route in North America, but it would make sense everywhere else around the world. The popular Atto 3 on the other hand is BYD's BEV crossover that's roughly the same size as a Corolla Cross; in Australia it costs about as much as a Corolla Cross hybrid. Converted to USD, the Atto 3 prices in Australia ranges from US$26,380 to US$29,695. Edited October 2 by AM222 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted October 3 Share Posted October 3 6 hours ago, DeluxeStang said: I admire the hell out of his approach. He could stand there pounding his chest saying Ford is perfect, and none of their rivals can come close to them. But that mentality would only lead to Ford falling further behind. Actually giving credit to your competition, and openly stating where your company needs to improve, how you can better your products and the way you develop them, that's how you win. We're so used to seeing these leaders lie, or hide stuff from us, Farley doing the opposite is a strength, not a weakness. You can show your adversaries respect without taking a shit on your own company and thus your employees. Farley has done this multiple times. If Ford is “no match” for the Chinese, he should step down since he has been in charge for five years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted October 3 Share Posted October 3 24 minutes ago, tbone said: You can show your adversaries respect without taking a shit on your own company and thus your employees. Farley has done this multiple times. If Ford is “no match” for the Chinese, he should step down since he has been in charge for five years. This isn't how I see it. Openly saying our rivals have advantages over us in certain areas, we need to do better, isn't shitting on your company, it's wanting your company to be the best it can be. The Chinese brands are objectively the best brands at the moment when it comes to EVs, specifically affordable EVs, it's not even up for debate. But he's doing something about it. It would be one thing if he was just saying "Yeah we suck, oh well, nothing we can do about it" that would piss me off. But what he's actually saying is "Our competition has an advantage here, here, and here, here's the changes we're making as a company to close that gap". He's identifying the problem, and making decisions to rectify in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 3 Share Posted October 3 56 minutes ago, tbone said: You can show your adversaries respect without taking a shit on your own company and thus your employees. Farley has done this multiple times. If Ford is “no match” for the Chinese, he should step down since he has been in charge for five years. He means currently and he’s already working on the solution. It would be different if he just said oh well we can’t do it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted October 3 Share Posted October 3 15 hours ago, DeluxeStang said: This isn't how I see it. Openly saying our rivals have advantages over us in certain areas, we need to do better, isn't shitting on your company, it's wanting your company to be the best it can be. The Chinese brands are objectively the best brands at the moment when it comes to EVs, specifically affordable EVs, it's not even up for debate. But he's doing something about it. It would be one thing if he was just saying "Yeah we suck, oh well, nothing we can do about it" that would piss me off. But what he's actually saying is "Our competition has an advantage here, here, and here, here's the changes we're making as a company to close that gap". He's identifying the problem, and making decisions to rectify in. I understand your perspective, and I’m not disputing that he is trying to take steps to close that gap, but as I’m sure you’re aware, in today’s society there is a large number of the population that won’t read past the headline. Farley regularly uses hyperbolic wording against his own company that hits the headlines, which may have context in the body of the story, but people never see. I’m suggesting he chooses his words more carefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texasota Posted October 3 Share Posted October 3 1 hour ago, tbone said: I understand your perspective, and I’m not disputing that he is trying to take steps to close that gap, but as I’m sure you’re aware, in today’s society there is a large number of the population that won’t read past the headline. Farley regularly uses hyperbolic wording against his own company that hits the headlines, which may have context in the body of the story, but people never see. I’m suggesting he chooses his words more carefully. It’s called “tough love”. And it usually gets fantastic results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 3 Share Posted October 3 (edited) It’s the same movie again, Ford has an unbelievable new thing that will start at $40k, many want to believe it and falls in love with the new best thing, then reality sets in……. then Ford wonders where all the reservations went when the price jumps to $56k….. Edited October 3 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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