Steel Body for F-150 EREV?

[Texasota]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

I still don't think you lose speed - I think you just run out of range.  Guess we'll have to wait for the tests.

The RAM 1500 can be ordered with a 3.6  Pentastar engine. That truck will produce more useable HP then a RAM REV with a depleted battery because of the efficiency loss inherent with series hybrid (Gemini say 7-15% loss for series hybrids).

 

That ICE RAM and a RAM REV with a depleted battery are both obtaining 100% of their power from the ICE, correct?
 

There is no additional HP being magically created just because there are electric motors involved. That would violate physical laws. Those electric motors are 100% dependent on the power the ICE and generator can produce. And because of the efficiency loss the RAM REV has less HP than the ICE RAM and it’s further burdened by the extra weight of the depleted battery. 
 

The RAM REV can continue towing as long as there is gas in the tank (no range loss). That is after all its claim to fame. But it’s underpowered which means it is limited in speed and severely so on steep grades. A towing test of the Shark 6 (posted by jpd80 months ago) bore this out. It was limited to 45ish MPH after the battery was depleted.

 

 

 

 

[akirby]

8 hours ago, CurtisH said:

Help me out here.  Let’s say you run out of range and fill up with gas.  You still have a depleted battery.  Does the electric drive train run in a low power mode so the engine can provide enough of a charge to the battery?  Based on your description, the engine cannot adequately charge the battery to provide full power.  So what actually happens?  Seems to me that the engine would need to be big enough to provide as much charge to the battery as the motor needs.  

It probably does if you're not towing a heavy load.  But I don't know what happens when towing a heavy load that requires a lot more power.  What I do know is the v6 can't tow a max load by itself (limit is 8k) and you lose power when you convert from mechanical energy to electrical through the battery and back to mechanical at the motor.  So it makes sense to me that towing 14k lbs with the EREV requires full power from both motors and the v6 would not be able to keep up with battery depletion in that scenario.  And I don't think speed affects battery consumption except for aero drag at highway speeds.

 

My educated guess is when towing 14k lbs you have to charge the battery or let the engine charge the battery to a certain percentage before moving.  I don't think it can tow that much with a depleted battery and engine power alone.

[akirby]

7 hours ago, Texasota said:

The RAM 1500 can be ordered with a 3.6  Pentastar engine. That truck will produce more useable HP then a RAM REV with a depleted battery because of the efficiency loss inherent with series hybrid (Gemini say 7-15% loss for series hybrids).

 

That ICE RAM and a RAM REV with a depleted battery are both obtaining 100% of their power from the ICE, correct?
 

There is no additional HP being magically created just because there are electric motors involved. That would violate physical laws. Those electric motors are 100% dependent on the power the ICE and generator can produce. And because of the efficiency loss the RAM REV has less HP than the ICE RAM and it’s further burdened by the extra weight of the depleted battery. 
 

The RAM REV can continue towing as long as there is gas in the tank (no range loss). That is after all its claim to fame. But it’s underpowered which means it is limited in speed and severely so on steep grades. A towing test of the Shark 6 (posted by jpd80 months ago) bore this out. It was limited to 45ish MPH after the battery was depleted.

 

 

But electric motors don't reduce torque like ICE does.  Now maybe it disconnects one of the two motors IF one motor has enough power.  But can one motor tow 14k lbs even at lower speeds?

[Sherminator98]

11 hours ago, Texasota said:

The Powerboost (22/24) is still better than the 2.7 (18/23). That is 22.2% better city. The F-150 Powerboost puts up impressive numbers for a full sized truck.

 

But the issue is that the Powerboost is in higher end product and costs quite a bit more then say the STX does with a 2.7L. Your looking at saving $300-400 a year in gas for a vehicle that costs 10K more base price. 

 

It should be interesting how Ford prices/options the EREV in relation to everything else in the lineup

[Zestyg]

11 hours ago, Texasota said:

The RAM 1500 can be ordered with a 3.6  Pentastar engine. That truck will produce more useable HP then a RAM REV with a depleted battery because of the efficiency loss inherent with series hybrid (Gemini say 7-15% loss for series hybrids).

 

That ICE RAM and a RAM REV with a depleted battery are both obtaining 100% of their power from the ICE, correct?
 

There is no additional HP being magically created just because there are electric motors involved. That would violate physical laws. Those electric motors are 100% dependent on the power the ICE and generator can produce. And because of the efficiency loss the RAM REV has less HP than the ICE RAM and it’s further burdened by the extra weight of the depleted battery. 
 

The RAM REV can continue towing as long as there is gas in the tank (no range loss). That is after all its claim to fame. But it’s underpowered which means it is limited in speed and severely so on steep grades. A towing test of the Shark 6 (posted by jpd80 months ago) bore this out. It was limited to 45ish MPH after the battery was depleted.

 

 

 

 

That feels like a design failure. It would make more sense to have the generator aggressively recharge the battery while towing and going below a certain % or under particularly high load/throttle (i.e. up grade). This would of course reduce range, but it’s still an increase over BEV and maintains its immense capability.

[Texasota]

6 hours ago, akirby said:

My educated guess is when towing 14k lbs you have to charge the battery or let the engine charge the battery to a certain percentage before moving.  I don't think it can tow that much with a depleted battery and engine power alone.

Well, that would make an EREV laughable. EREVs are being hyped as the solution to range anxiety. And RAM is boasting in its marketing that it can tow 14,000 pounds.  
 

If the truth is that it can only move a 14,000 lb trailer when the battery has adequate SOC, then the RAM EREV is a massive failure.

 

The RAM REV will have adequate torque to get the truck/trailer moving but it will be very constrained in how fast it can move it.

 

It is the same principle that my boat dealer leverages. He uses a lawn tractor with a hitch ball mounted on the front. He easily moves very large/heavy boats from the parking lot to the service bay but is limited to extremely slow speed. This works because of the gear reduction multiplying the engine’s torque. An electric motor’s max torque is available even at low rpm but it still has the same speed restraints.
 

Torque is the rotational force that twists an engine's crankshaft, while horsepower measures how quickly that force is used to perform work.  In simple terms: Torque is the raw muscle that gets a heavy vehicle moving, and horsepower is the speed that keeps it going fast.

Edited July 5 by Texasota

[Texasota]

5 hours ago, Sherminator98 said:

But the issue is that the Powerboost is in higher end product and costs quite a bit more then say the STX does with a 2.7L. Your looking at saving $300-400 a year in gas for a vehicle that costs 10K more base price. 

That is a fair argument but a very different one than what I was responding to. The Powerboost EPA numbers are significantly better than the 2.7 Ecoboost numbers.

Edited July 5 by Texasota

[Texasota]

1 hour ago, Zestyg said:

That feels like a design failure. It would make more sense to have the generator aggressively recharge the battery while towing and going below a certain % or under particularly high load/throttle (i.e. up grade). This would of course reduce range, but it’s still an increase over BEV and maintains its immense capability.

RAM has stated that the RAM REV will strive to keep the battery SOC at least at 30% (a reserve) to address the issues as you describe. But it’s not hard to see how maintaining adequate towing speeds (over long distances) while simultaneously maintaining battery SOC places impossible demands on a small displacement naturally aspirated ICE. 
 

The only way around this “design failure” is a more powerful ICE. 

Edited July 5 by Texasota

[akirby]

22 minutes ago, Texasota said:

But it’s not hard to see how maintaining adequate towing speeds (over long distances) while simultaneously maintaining battery SOC places impossible demands on a small displacement naturally aspirated ICE. 
 

The only way around this “design failure” is a more powerful ICE. 

We agree on that.  But I think the range anxiety solution was to provide 700 miles of range on a full charge/tank not necessarily that you could drive non stop on the ICE alone.  Stop for 30-45 minutes to refuel/recharge and go another 700.

 

Let's see what RAM says about that situation.

[Texasota]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

We agree on that.  But I think the range anxiety solution was to provide 700 miles of range on a full charge/tank not necessarily that you could drive non stop on the ICE alone.  Stop for 30-45 minutes to refuel/recharge and go another 700.

 

Let's see what RAM says about that situation.

The automotive press states that when the gas tank reaches empty you need to find a charging station or refill the gas tank at a gas station. This implies that it can continue to operate which would be similar to a conventional PHEV. I could not find anything from RAM directly stating this.

 

I did find on the RAM REV website that the onboard generator can bypass the battery and deliver electricity directly to the electric motor(s) when needed in high power demand situations. In addition, RAM states that the front electric motor can be decoupled when necessary (implying  low battery situations).

Edited July 5 by Texasota

[akirby]

59 minutes ago, Texasota said:

The automotive press states that when the gas tank reaches empty you need to find a charging station or refill the gas tank at a gas station. This implies that it can continue to operate which would be similar to a conventional PHEV. I could not find anything from RAM directly stating this.

 

I did find on the RAM REV website that the onboard generator can bypass the battery and deliver electricity directly to the electric motor(s) when needed in high power demand situations. In addition, RAM states that the front electric motor can be decoupled when necessary (implying  low battery situations).

Well that's promising.  I'd still question if that works for 14k.

[jpd80]

11 minutes ago, akirby said:

Well that's promising.  I'd still question if that works for 14k.

The biggest issue for electrified vehicles to overcome is the low price of gasoline,

justifying any spend on hybrid or PHEV is much harder when gas prices fall back to reasonable levels 

[Texasota]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Well that's promising.  I'd still question if that works for 14k.

Me too. At best it will have to be at reduced speeds and likely operating on only the rear motor. I haven't seen anywhere where RAM describes the implications for it's 14,000 lb tow limit with a depleted battery. At best this is disingenuous marketing and at worst an outright scam. 

 

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

The biggest issue for electrified vehicles to overcome is the low price of gasoline,

justifying any spend on hybrid or PHEV is much harder when gas prices fall back to reasonable levels 

Agreed, and gasoline prices are coming back down now in the USA. But, I've still got my heart set on my Aussie friends designing/engineering an F-100 Powerboost for me.

[Texasota]

This is an interesting read even though it is about 1.5 years old.

 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1145851_2026-ram-ramcharger-plug-in-hybrid-how-it-works-specs

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, Texasota said:

Me too. At best it will have to be at reduced speeds and likely operating 

Agreed, and gasoline prices are coming back down now in the USA. But, I've still got my heart set on my Aussie friends designing/engineering an F-100 Powerboost for me.

No idea on this one but surely, a US centric product would have a ton of local input to get everything just so for your customer base.

 

I do wonder if the F Trucks will go to HT steel bodies for next generation. Sourcing enough aluminium is really problematic for Ford, thst and price hikes in the past 12 years don’t help either. Silverado is similar weight to F150, so maybe not so much of a penalty…

[fordmantpw]

I think akirby's thoughts about the 1/2" hose out of the barrel and the 3/8" hose in is likely spot on.  The power needed to tow is also not constant.  When going up a hill, that hose may be 5/8", but going down hill with a load, the hose is shut off.  My guess is that the engine is going to be sized to keep a steady battery charge on flat ground with the max load in tow.  So if towing 14k lbs on flat ground is a 1/2" hose, that's what it will dictate the engine size it gets.  You'll dip into the battery on uphills, and put a tiny bit of juice back in going down hills.  Speed is also a major factor in MPG when towing.  I can see a 2+ MPG variation from 60-70 when towing our fifth wheel.  So, that will also be taken into account for engine size.

 

Is this ideal?  No, but the engine will be able to recharge when you stop for breaks, fill up with gas, etc.  I don't think you'll really need to charge the battery separately.  It will be tough to work out the kinks, but I think they'll make it work.

[Texasota]

I think the use case for this truck is urban usage. I can see contractors using it to haul a Bob Cat skid loader for short distances between job sites. That makes sense.
 

Long distance driving even without a trailer will result in disappointing MPGs (the opposite of being green). An F-150 Powerboost or Ecoboost  is a far more sensible solution. 
 

I predict EREV trucks are only going to sell in low numbers comparable to full size BEV trucks. 

[fordmantpw]

I think an EREV is perfect for the weekend warrior campers.  We camp quite a bit, and every weekend, all of the state parks in MO are PACKED with campers.  These people are driving 100 miles +/- for the weekend.  You plug in at home, pull your camper 100 miles to the campground, using a couple gallons of fuel, plug in and charge at the campsite, then drive 100 miles back home.  You've used $20 worth of fuel for the weekend.  During the week, you plug your truck in at night and commute to work without using a drop of fuel.  I mean, I burn 30 gallons of diesel for a 240 mile round trip to the campground.  I would love to have something like this!  If there are some minor drawbacks for the once a year cross-country trip, it would be worth it.

 

Now, our needs are changing as we transition from weekend warriors to more long-distance travel since my wife has retired, but if they can make this work out to get similar fuel economy to a straight gasser on long trips, I would be all over this for our next tow rig.  I know that's likely a big IF, but I'm an optimistic person!  

[Texasota]

I’m assuming at 8 MPG for your diesel it is a heavy camper trailer. Your highway EV range  with that trailer driving the RAM REV is likely going to be 40-50ish miles at best. 
 

It’s good to be optimistic, but it would be a good idea to talk your RAM dealer into letting you try pulling your camper to your campsite before you buy. If it is a good experience for you, then I will take back everything I have said and happily eat a plate of crow. 

[fordmantpw]

The RAM REV is a half-ton, and it won't be pulling my 12k lb fifth wheel (some people try it with a half ton, but it's a very bad idea).  And no worries, I won't be buying a RAM, so no need to try the RAM REV.

 

I'm at about 10 MPG towing my fiver with my diesel (12 if I run 58-60 instead of 68-70).  I would be happy with 8 MPG towing with a gas EREV in a Super Duty.  I'm thinking a 5.0L will be the likely candidate for an EREV Super Duty.

 

But, I may never find out how it tows a fifth wheel.  We're planning to downsize to a truck camper while upsizing our truck (to an F550) in the next 8-10 months.  I'm a bit more skeptical of an EREV making it's way into an F550 in the next 5-10 years, though having the extra battery bank would be awesome when boondocking.

[mackinaw]

Leapmotor (Chinese) soon will be selling the "B10 EREV" in Mexico.  Here's how they worked out the ICE/battery conundrum. 

 

Ah, yes, the driving modes. There are four of them, with two of them being completely illogical to me. 'EV+' mode, funnily enough, drives the car electrically, with the petrol engine only firing up when the battery's charge level is below 9%. 'EV mode' does the same, but the engine kicks in when the battery is below 25%, while 'Fuel' sees the engine working when the battery has less than 80% charge. The aforementioned 'Power+' mode, meanwhile, sees the engine on all of the time, working with the electric motor to give the most amount of, er, power. It all sounds great, but I would imagine most drivers won't bother with anything other than EV and Power+ mode. 

 

https://www.electrifying.com/reviews/leapmotor/b10-1/review