classicford
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Posts posted by classicford
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Well, no shit. It's just that something like a TFS R head is all but useless on a 302 based engine due to displacement limitations. Get a 408W and the game changes quite a bit.
TFS R heads on an 8.2" Windsor will work, granted you are either building a very high-revving engine or something that's going to get a lot of boost thrown at it. (Either combination makes for a very fun car) Keep in mind the 4V Cobra heads are capable of outflowing many big block heads as cast, and they work fine on a 281 cid engine.
If the Modular's were capable of large displacements that engine would destroy all V8s before or after it, no questions asked.
If all factors are equal, then yes, there is no replacement for displacement. All factors are definitely not equal when comparing a 4V Mod to a pushrod however.Yes, if those 4V heads worked well enough they probably would since a 4.00" bore is far more desirable than a 3.55" bore. I am a fan of the modulars for three reasons, deep skirt block w/ cross bolted main, those long head bolts, and the 4V heads. A modular with a Windsor's bore spacing would be nuts.
I hope it takes the basic modular design, gives it a 4+" bore spacing, 4V heads, and DAMBs instead or RF followers. If they do this it will be the finest American V8-family ever produced, bar none.
The Modular is just a much more durable engine than the Windsor, at least when factory versions are compared. That's why the Teskid aluminum blocks in the '96-'98 Cobras can withstand well over 600-700 HP, while a factory 302 can take about 400, a 351W about 500-600, and they won't last forever at those power levels.
Also you have to do less to a Modular to make power. If you want BIG power levels in a Windsor, every part of that engine is going to have to be serious aftermarket pieces. Modulars can make crazy power with the stock heads, and they don't need the semi-extensive oiling mods Windsors do (pretty much all aftermarket Windsor blocks use a priority-main oiling system). Obviously the Modular's biggest weakness, displacement, limits its naturally aspirated potential, but there are quite a few 800+ HP twin-turbo Cobras in this country.
If the Hurricane V8 has DAMBS, at at least eventually DOHC heads, it will replace Windsors as my favorite engine. It took 65 more cubic inches for the LS1 Camaros to be able to outrun the Cobra Mustangs, imagine what a 5.7L+ DOHC engine will be capable of...
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Ford already has Mazda, and I think they could even do without PAG and put that toward making Lincoln/Mercury completely different from Ford. They don't need to merge with anyone, outside North America Ford's doing great anyways.
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A new V6 Mustang will blow the doors off any of the old Mustangs.
Oh, not hardly. Big blocks and the massive low end torque that come with them do wonderous things to a car's performance, even if said car only has recirculating ball steering and leaf springs for a rear suspension.
A new V6 Mustang can do a standing 1/4 mile in the low 15/high 14 second range. Needless to say a V6 just doesn't have the grunt to go up against the old pushrod V8s that were build with low end power being a priority. It would have a handling advantage, but put a 351 CJ, Boss 302, or a 429 SCJ in a Fox or SN95 late model Mustang, and you will be destroying a lot of tuner guys' egos.
Niteflight--Thank Ford's and others' obsession with bulky OHC engines for the lack of engine bay real estate on today's cars. In all honesty, how much of a mechanical advantage do today's engines have with all the extra weight, electronics, and space engineers need to account for?
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I hope they don't use the stupid P221 for this, I REALLY want the P415 though, you'll see soon...
Could someone put this in English?
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Stray Kat,
I completely agree with you about street rod parts. I think the 5.0L engine is popular enough now that with some incentive we could actually start seeing old Ford streetrods with FORD engines again. The SBF market is massive, enough so that Ford ought to realize they could reap some benefits from the 5.0L yet.
I've yet to see a reason why FRPP doesn't offer complete EFI SBF crate engines complete with an EEC computer and the wiring harness. Quite a few streetrod guys I've talked to use or would like to use EFI anymore.
would say more but I'll let it go for now--American Grafitti is on.
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I find that to be a far more honest statement than "the RWD sedan has been staging a comeback" or "America has found a new love, the RWD sedan".
The RWD section of the sedan market is both small and specialized. It also has a real stigma due to the shoddy suspension designs and lack of traction control on 70s era cars.
In the early '70s (with a few exceptions such as the Datsun 240Z) Japanese imports were also largely ignored and called "crapboxes" (the "nice" version of their nickname). Also the Mustang, probably Ford's most loved car, was not considered one of Ford's cooler vehicles thruout the '70s, most people still remember the Mustang II as an overglorified Pinto with weird body cladding and big decals.
Things change.......
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Ford since the discontinuance of the 5.0L/5.8L small blocks has always been like this when it comes to aftermarket support for their products.
If it weren't for the 5.0L Mustang and the excitement for Ford products it created, Ford probably wouldn't be here today, or at least Ford wouldn't be nowhere near the company they are today. EVERYBODY in high school back in the late '80s who had any interest in cars knew the 5.0L was hot, and they wanted one. I was certainly one of those people.
That single engine created an entire new generation of Ford lovers, and what did Ford do, they ditched the engine for something that was much more refined and efficient, but was nowhere near as user-friendly for hotrodders as the '89-'93 Mustangs were. Today, there are several superior aftermarket parts for any comparable part for the old pushrod engines FRPP has.
The 5.0L Mustang is increasingly the enthusiasts/aftermarket's own car, and while this is part of what has made the Mustang so successful, it shows that Ford isn't willing to try to offer actual Ford parts for their old cars that have been made into hotrods, showcars, dragsters, etc.
The Ford community is now it's own business supporting and running their own 5.0L-catering businesses more than ever. Again, this is part of what has made the Mustang so succesful though, but it just shows that Ford neither cares or wants to support the people who support Ford.
----------------------------now, to the point-------------------------------------
Ford's abandonement of the big block market absolutely does not surprise me. They would rather let the few people who do use BBF's to switch to Chevys or Mopars, who both have in-house performance parts programs that offer quite a nice choice of big block parts. I myself right now would prefer to build a 426 Hemi-based big block than an FE or a 385-Series, and until very recently I was a die hard Ford fan. My blood runs plain red today, not a trace of blue in it.
I imagine some sort of plan only capable of being thought of by crackheads and meth addicts is currently in practice at Ford today, a plan to end all support of the aftermarket community, Ford Racing, and any high-performance cars alltogether. It seems Ford's turning Japanese.............they wish to offer great cars, but cars with no personality to them. Outside of the Mustang I don't know of any brand new Ford's that people will be keeping and restoring 40 years from today.
It is stuff like this which has made me no longer a Ford fan. I'm not moving to any other manufacturer, non of them impress me enough to like them anymore. I'll always love the Mustang and the Windsor engine, but I'm no longer any more inclined to buy a Ford than I am to buy a Dodge or a Pontiac now.
IF, if Ford can do enough to attract me back then I'll keep buying exclusively Ford. Time will tell....
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Um...correct me if I am wrong...but isn't that exactly how Ford positions Mercury...Metro...Urban style? If that is correct then Milan makes perfect sense.
Oh, probably, but I know and love the Merc's that were meant to be upscale luxo-Ford's that could be ordered as the closest thing the Lincoln-Mercury Division ever had to a hotrod. (Remember the Marauder V8s?)
I hate how all the cars today put no interest into their American muscle heritage or the massive, instant power and torque American cars used to be famous for. Even the "grandma's cars" back in the day could end up being quite a street sleeper if you checked the right boxes.
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Also keep in mind that Ford considered all of the racing and performance applications the S197 was going to be used for once in production. The chassis is considerably stronger than any previous one, and the S197 doesn't need the subframe connectors, torque box reinforcements, etc, that the Fox and SN95 chassis need when they're put in high-horsepower applications. It's not like all of that extra weight is there for nothing.
The interior and engine bay are also larger than the SN95's were. You can't take the heads off of a Modular engine in an SN95 Mustang without pulling the engine first...
The GT aluminum block would cost much more than $500 per car, trust me.
BTW, if you haven't realized this yet, Ford gets critized for everything they do and everything they don't do. Nothing's going to change just because Ford builds a car with "Shelby" on the decklid.
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The Five Hundred should have been the Fairlane (because it is as vanilla as the name, and reminiscent of the 50s Fairlane sedans - roughly the same size, stance, and target market - an excellent fit in my opinion), and the Fusion should have been the Falcon (because it is roughly the same size and function, fills roughly the same place in the lineup, and because "Fusion" is so 1990s - I mean come on, name your car after a razor blade and a vegetable drink? Get a clue Ford marketing. Love the car, hate that name.). The 427 should have taken the place of the CV, and been named "Galaxie".
signed: retro-man
Um, the Fairlane was at least a little sporty, and offered more than some decent power if memory recalls.....I say the 500 wouldn't do the name justice.
I would much rather see the Fusion called Falcon too. It would be nice to be able to buy a brand new Falcon Sprint that has a 4.4L V8 and a standard shift trans..........
I just hate the name Fusion. It so hip-hop and American Idol-ish. Granted, the people the Fusion was meant to appeal to are most likely girls and metro's that watch American Idol and think hip-hop sounds great, but that ruins it for the rest of us, don't you think?
And I hate Milan even more. Is there a word that could possibly be more metro sounding, outside of Civic?
I did like the name Zephyr, but Ford ran that down the drain....
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BTW everyone knows that the Mullet of cars is the Chevy ElCamino. B)
Naaaah, I was thinking an '80s Camaro...
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Also, the Hurricane will probably feature a more compact valve train (still OHC, though), possibly DAMBs, and it will also have a cross bolted deep skirt, which means that it's probably not going to be small or narrow, but neither is the new Hemi. It will be longer, and will probably have a shorter deck height.
"Modular" features that will be retained will be piston and connecting rod metallurgy (all Ford's 'mod' engines, including the Duratec 4s and 6s have cracked sintered connecting rods), as well as cam lobes that will be affixed to a camshaft, instead of a camshaft with machined lobes.
Richard,
Many people don't act like this engine won't completely replace the Modular within a couple of years. What's your opinion on that?
If this engine impresses me enough, and can be bored/stroked to at least 7.0L's, it's my new favorite engine.
I'm hoping physically the engine is no larger than an FE, which is smaller than a 429 (which is smaller than a Modular). I'm also expecting an all-aluminum version, as well as a DOHC. I'm hoping that Ford will fix the problem with the current DOHC heads, which have a sharp radius in the ports, instead of a smooth, straight path like the 3V's. The early DOHC heads also had some cooling problems, I think.
I'm guessing the engine will look a lot like the current Modular, and that the base engines will be iron block/3V heads. As long as it's smaller, lighter, and has capacity for a 4.00 inch bore and a 0.030 overbore or two on top of that, I'm happy and I'll probably be running OHC. The fact that you can't easily retrofit a SBF into the S197 Mustang as you could the SN95's has been the only thing keeping me out of them.
The s/c 5.4L in the Ford GT really makes over 600 horsepower (540 - 550 rwhp).The C6 Z06 engine is ~427 cubic inches and is so close to the edge rumor has it it isn't even rebuildable. There is no magic to this engine, with the exception of the cam, it is just as radical as any race ready pump gas SBF or SBC you will purchase from an aftermarket builder. It's 11:1 for Christs's sake and in the end it still only makes about 440 rwhp, WELL short of Ford's "top dog" s/c 330 cid V8.
The GT500 makes 500 horsepower (about 440 rwhp as well) but it isn't bieng stressed at all. The GT500 is going to be far more "modable" than the C6 Z06. Watch.
The Z06 engine has a 4.125" bore. There's no way on earth you're going to be able to overbore that thing safely. Even the wildest SBF blocks you can buy with a 4.125" bore can only accomodate a single "30 over" safely, and that's putting things on the edge.
I heard Chevy was going to make a supercharged version of this engine that would rate at 680 HP, to have almost 100 cubic inches more than the comparable Ford engine yet get only 80 more HP...........
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Richard, never said the Modular wasn't a good OEM engine, I prefer it over its crosstown rivals any day of the week.
The Modular's block is lightyears ahead of the old thinwall-cast 5.0L blocks, too. 5.0L can withstand around 400HP reliably, the Modular has seen up to 900HP on an OEM block.
The 5.0L obviously has proven to be a great performance and aftermarket engine, and if built properly it's also a great little blower or turbo engine. Granted, I wouldn't run anything radical on the stock block or bottom end, but considering how many Mustangs end up with engine upgrades sooner or later, the 5.0L, albeit in a highly improved form, should still be in there.
Don't get me wrong, hi tech multivalve OHC engines are great for small displacement engines, and yes, the Modular truck engines have come a long way, but I think making a thoroughly modern 5.0L with a great torque curve would have taken considerably less effort (and money).
The very first Cobra DOHC heads flowed so well Ford had to restrict them at lower RPMs. The reason Ford put a blower on the 10th Anniversary Cobras was to provide instant torque, which they had been wrestling with since the Cobra 4.6L's introduction. These heads would be excellent for a larger engine, but alas, Ford messed that one up.....
In fact, the DOHC heads flow far better than almost any factory engine short of a supercar beast would require, which takes us back to the aftermarket. While the aftermarket does offer a considerable amount of goodies for the Modular, the engine is still in the Windsor's shadow, as one can build an all aluminum Windsor today that is able to rev to 8,000 RPM on factory lifters, all while continuing to weigh less and cost less than the Modular.
It's not that the Modular's a bad engine, it just happens to have a few qualities that tend to shoot the engine's potential in the foot....
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I guess 300HP out of a 4.6L V3 isn't enough for you
Or 420HP out of a 4.6 Super Charged 4V isn't enough for you
Or even 500 out a Super Charged 5.4L 4V in a 40K Mustang
Or Finally a 550HP Supercharged 5.4L 4V in the GT isn't enough.
The best that factory 5.0L could do was 240HP
There no doubting that the 5.0L is a great engine to modify, but its been bested by the Mod motor in the past couple years with no problem. The first mod motors where weak, but once the hi-po heads got put on the 4.6L in 99, the engine came into its own.
That's comparing apples to oranges, in the 5.0L's heyday, engines (and that includes the first Modulars) usually made well under to just under 1HP/Cubic inch, rarely above it. Almost all of the engines you talk about have to be supercharged to amount to anything, which is kinda sad for an American V8.
The Boss 302 saw way over 400HP naturally aspirated in the Trans Am Mustangs, and those engines had just a few valvetrain, intake, and bottom end upgrades over their street cousins.
The biggest choke on the factory 5.0L's were the heads and intake, a problem that could have been solve with pennys on the dime compared to the Modular's R&D bill. The engines were aging, but minimal improvement could have been made to improve emissions, mileage, power, and durability for fractions of the Modular program's cost.
The compact, pushrod 5.0L made 225HP/300 ft. lbs. torque, in Cobra trim it made an underrated 240HP, probably closer to 275. The first Modulars made 215 HP in 2V form, with a torque curve nowhere near as impressive as the 5.0L's. Even the early DOHC 32V's made only 280HP, only marginally above the 5.0L Cobra's, which could achieve nearly the same, again with better torque, with merely 2 valves pushrod actuated. And those 5.0L's fit much more comfortably into a Mustang's engine bay, a Modular is phsyically larger than a 429 big block!
The Modular took an expensive production line revamp, all for an engine that weighs more, is physically bigger yet is capable of only 360 cubic inches max. And that's with a massive undersquare, something that revs don't agree with. A tall deck Windsor can handle over 430 cubic inches, and even a 302 can accomplish about 360 cubic inches. The Modular is more expensive to produce and more complicated to repair than a Windsor.
The reason Ford can't get their hi-po 5.4L's to rev is because the tiny bore and massive stroke cause such high piston speeds that stability is compromised at said speeds. Windsors never had this problem as they can accomodate up to a 4.125" bore, while a Modular maxes out at 3.7".
It has been continually proven the only way to get huge power numbers out of a Modular is to resort to forced induction. This has two causes, one being that the Modular's OHC design encourages it to rev too high for street use naturally aspirated, and the engine's dismal displacement potential.
I used to be a Modular fan, but the more I learned about them, the less I liked them....Windsors and 385 Series fat blocks make more performance sense and are much cheaper for me to build than a 4.6L.
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Duratec 35 is DOHC, not SOHC.
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If this was the early '90s, I'd say Ford should ditch the Modular program alltogether and make a Gen. II SBF.........Too late now, and a pushrod 5.0L in the S197 Mustang with a deep skirt block, DIS, and all aluminum construction would have made the car that much more desireable.
I'd love too see a brand-new Mustang with those chrome "5.0" badges on the front fenders again....
Maxing out the bore on the Modulars would only cause reliability problems later, not something an engine christened 5.0L needs.
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I really like the big free flowing valves and heads in the C motors.
I have a M code in a 1971 Torino that screams and loves to rev.
I don't know much about buiding up the W motors, but that might be an advantage where shock tower clearance won't allow the C. (as origional equipment) A bored and stroked 351 W would be a nice upgrade where the car previously had a 302 or 289! I assume that some tricj heads would really wake up the Windsor...?
Regards,
Korny
:happy feet:
Stock for stock, the 351C heads were vastly better than the Windsor heads, expecially the 4V pieces.
The 351C has the same 9.5" deck heigth as the 351W, they'll interchange easily and any car that can fit the 351W can fit the Cleveland. If I had an original 351C car I would definently keep it though, as the Clevelands are getting very rare.
The aftermarket heads you can buy for Windsors today are some of the best heads ever made for Fords; Trick Flow, Edelbrock, Airflow Research, and Dart all make very nice pieces that will indeed wake up a Windsor. Ford Racing makes nice heads up to a certain point, but the aftermarket is more able to focus on the hot street/all-out race components.
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I suppose all this electronic gimmickry is for nothing more than to allow greater control over your own vehicle by the manufacturer. I think it allows for a system that acts like a tattle tale ready to blab to the dealer how you drive and also to help control the vehicles power to avoid warranty issues.
That, as well as cost savings, are why they use drive-by-wire now. When the throttle is just another electronic accessory, it makes things like cruise control much simpler to install.
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Not to mention reliability.
I have the same opinion on the newfangled "drive by wire" throttles. Will it ever be as reliable as the proven cable operated throttle, I wonder?I drove a new Mustang V6, and the acceleration lag on that thing was awful, especially when you floored it. A Vulcan 3.0L Taurus has better throttle response, I will not kid you....
I really have to ask myself is all of these electrontic "upgrades" to today's cars will prove themselves as reliable as their mechanical ancestors when the cars get 8 years old, or if they'll all deteriorate into a big pain in the neck.
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You do realize that neither a 347 Pontiac nor a 350 Olds are Ford products right??? Thanks for bastardizing two more Ford classics.
Putting non-Ford engines into classic Fords is super stupid; anyone who finds it acceptable needs to be backhanded every day and twice on Sundays for the rest of their life.
There was no 5.4 in a Marauder.
Gee, your even a dweeb where cars are concerned too!
The 351 C is not a POS you stupid idiot!
Now I see another facet to your ignorance!
:happy feet:
While the 351C was a very good engine in its time, I would much rather have a 351W simply for parts availability. A FRPP 351 Race block with the Cleveland 2.749" mains and either AFR or Trick Flow cylinder heads would have as much and probably substancially more potential than a 351C.
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Holding a grudge against a car company all the way to the 1950's? Sounds like jealousy. Chevy's were always great, but didn't get that certain shine until 1955 when the small block Chevy made it's debut, and the design of the new '55s took the nation by storm. Isn't this the time that traditional hot rodders found they could get more power for better money from the Chevy mouse? Took the performance edge from turds, and turned all hell loose on every other brand.
General Motors was nothing until '55, and even then only because FoMoCo didn't have a real need for a small block until the early '60s.
If you knew a little bit about history, you'd know that what he's talking about was General Motor's huge buyout of various West Coast interurban rail companies, and then replacing their operations with the much more inefficient and road-clogging buses. If it wasn't for GM, those interurban rail companies could have kept their already efficient and organized operations, and the whole deal has nothing to do with the small block or the Bel-Air.
By the way, Cobras will track down, subdue, and eat every mouse they can find. They also like rats, especially stroked ones.
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us Ford people have the best and THE BEST NEVER REST.
Ford should have kept that slogan, not only for the Ranger but for everything.It's not Chevrolet, it's Redrolet, as in rednecks. The only reason Chevy is so hot in 'Neckcar (aka NASCAR) is because 99.9% of NASCAR fans are some sort of Earnhardt-obsessed hick.
The Monte Carlo looked like an old man's car compared to the Torino...
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1. 1969 Boss 429-best looking car then, now, and forever, IMO.
2. '96-'98 Mustang Cobras-my favorite latemodel
3. '56 F-100, slammed, tubbed, and big-blocked
4. '56 Fairlane Tudor or Victoria in any color, so long as its' black.
5. 1969 Torino Cobra
6. 1964 Falcon Sprint, with a nice, built-to-the-hilt Windsor.
7. '57 T-Bird
8. '89-'93 T-Bird Supercoupe or 5.0L
9. '01 Cobra
10. GT-40 Mk.III(?) original Le Mans winner
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Please find proof to back up any of your statements which are clearly Ford bias, knee jerk responses.
The feeling's mutual, and you don't exactly give good, solid proof for any of your self-glorification sessions either. Bowties are for the boys, leave this forum and the vehicles it concerns to the Ford guys.
By the way, why don't you mouth Windsors? Is it because they outnumber LS1s, and don't have any of the gripes you have about the MODs? Windsors will fit in any Mustang up to '04, so its not like someone with a MOD is stuck with it if they want to keep the car.
And why don't you "protect" GM's 6-cylinder and fwd cars when someone calls them junk? Maybe because they are, and there's no denying it?
Fusion Coupe and Boss Stang approved
in Ford Motor Company Discussion Forum
Posted
That's why they had the secondary intake ports that only opened up after 3,250 RPM or something like that. If it weren't for that there's no way the early DOHC heads would have been made streetable because the engine's power band would have been much higher than the stock engine was capable of spinning to.
Ford eventually got tired of trying to give a n/a, small displacement OHC engine low end torque and put a blower on the 10th ann. Cobras. Made for a very nice car but once again proved that power-wise there's no replacement for displacement.
Your right that the C-heads are much better, the '03-'04 Cobra, Mach 1 and Marauder heads are regarded as the best DOHC heads. One problem with the earlier '99-'01 Cobra and FR500 heads was that they had cooling problems with the #7 and #8 cylinders, that was fixed in '03 though.
That would make it justifiable as a good drag car engine........having a street car without low end power sucks big time though.