coopny
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Posts posted by coopny
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I meant to post this yesterday. Installed it in both vehicles. Very cool.
And so much for the negatards saying that ford was abandoning MFT.
At the risk of being one of the people you're talking about, I'm happy that Ford came out with this update. It's incremental, but definitely beats nothing. That being said, the class action is pending around Ford, and in response to an amended complaint, Ford asked for portions of their complaint to be redacted in regards to claims by Plaintiff that the MFT system was being "abandoned":
And Ford asking for redaction:
(Note that this would just remove said sentences from the public view, and not from the complaint or the judge/jury to consider).
I'm not expecting a free upgrade to Sync 3 (or any for that matter) or for them to magically make my existing touch screen capacitive at this point, but I'm still having a lot of issues. FWIW, someone (I forget which forum and would have to check) has quoted a TSB that cites several possible MFT issues (not mentioned in the update release notes on Syncmyride) that points to upgrading to 3.8 as the solution for the tech to implement. So clearly there's some bugfixing going under the hood in this release. Bringing my Fusion into the dealer with a couple weeks with an itemized list to see what can be done.
Part of the frustration is how intermittent some of the issues can be though... Need to test some things more now that I've receieved the update and see if some of my outstanding bugs have been squashed.
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So I purchased the Driver Assist package in my '15 Fusion Titanium, which includes the blindspot detection system. That has been working reliably, but one of the features it adds (since it puts sensors in the rear quarter panels) is that when the car is in reverse, it uses said sensors to warn if a car is approaching from the left or right (it makes a different sound than the forward/reverse sensing systems and displays "car approaching from left/right" in the dash on the left screen).
While it works properly some of the time (very useful in parking lots as a secondary check when backing up), it does seem to randomly activate while in reverse. Like, put in reverse, be still, and no objects to left/right/combination behind for fifteen feet- it'll start beeping "CAR APPROACHING FROM LEFT".
Anybody observe this behavior or know of a TSB? I plan to bring it up during my next service so my dealer can check on it.
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I would go back on the definition of "working fine" except I think I've
enough...
Buyers may still try the MFT system and see how its performing now (which is not as fast as every competitor) and compare features and decide against.
Either they already planned a switch to QNX and giving feature parity may cost very little because the overwhelming majority of code is identical (other than interface code, which is minimal) or they're going to stay with Windows, in which case why go through all the effort to put any new features on a dead platform. -
I wouldn't say it's a bean counter issue. With any software feature you have to consider the time and effort to develop, test and most importantly support it against the benefit. In this case making that feature available for existing MFT owners brings no new revenue, whereas with Sync 3 as a new product in new vehicles it can be a differentiator and can bring in new revenue.
I think it depends on how much of the sync 3 code base could be ported and whether it can be supported the same way. I wouldn't rule it out completely but I'd be surprised.
You have to keep in mind that MFT will continue to be sold in the 2015 and 2016 MY. Ford says that it will premier in a 2016 model year vehicle, but only promised full availability of Sync 3 at the end of calendar year 2016. Which means 2015 vehicles on lots now are stuck with it and at least some 2016 vehicles will come with it. If availability of a 2017 is early (e.g. Spring 2016), it could theoretically ship with MFT and have Sync 3 as a late availability option - although I doubt they would launch a 2017 with MFT.
Owner goodwill has to be considered, but you are correct in stating that the majority of future revenue will come from Sync 3. I agree with the statement that unless the code is easily portable for a feature, it's not likely to be backported to MFT.
Ford does have to compete with MFT until Sync 3 is in the entire Ford/Lincoln fleet, so anything they could do to enhance its position would be helpful. Devil's advocate, getting Sync 3 right is a bigger deal.
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I just watched an interview where Ford stated MFT would continue to receive updates/upgrades. I'd really like to see them add the automatic wifi update feature, and I don't see why the existing hardware shouldn't be capable of it since that's how the MFT software gets loaded at the factory in the first place. Time will tell.
512MB of memory and 2GB of storage, and the MFT updates are just under 2GB. You don't have the space to stage the downloaded files before overwriting the current ones. OTA updating is never going to come to MFT, the hardware is insufficient.
As far as further updates for Sync 2, there have been no feature updates and no substantial bugfixes since 2013. Now you can interpret this in a few ways:
1) Ford shoved 3.6 as an update that made things "acceptable" out the door, then worked on Sync 3 (maybe a sync2 rewrite on same platform too, maybe not) and focused on making that perfect instead of trying to fix things that are already broken;
2) Ford gave up on MFT and went full steam ahead on Sync 3 and it's just an empty promise.
I hope it's the former, but it could be the latter. Time will tell. At this time, Ford reps will not provide any timeline on when MFT updates will occur or whether any features are being developed at all.
I really believe that they'll go back and release bug fixes for MFT at the very least. It seems obvious they spent the last year with all hands on deck getting sync 3 out the door. I don't expect any new features unless they can very easily be ported from sync 3 (such as bluetooth support). Automatic wi-fi update in the factory where Ford controls everything is completely different from you doing it at home with your network.
If the documentation indicating Ford went through the time and effort to port Gen2 to QNX is true, then porting the backend code (most of the work) to make new features work correctly should be trivial, and the main additional effort would be to modify the interface to add the feature in. The Smartdevicelink code (Ford brands it applink) supports a web HMI that looks exactly like MFT, and QT4/QT5 HMIs that look different from Sync3, but is almost certainly what the Sync 3 UI is based on (for QNX Auto platform, those are generally the two choices).
If Ford keeps MFT on Windows, I would expect a total EOL and no real bugfixes.
I remain hopeful (but not optimistic) that MFT was actually rewritten on QNX and Ford releases it. While code can be buggy at any speed, Ford picked essentially the two worst choices for an operating system and user interface for performance (Flash Lite 3.1, which came out in 2009, and all development ended by Adobe in 2010 because it was too slow is used for the interface, and Windows Embedded as the OS). Now you could make bad choices on QNX to use all the hardware and make it crawl, but it would be a lot harder. QNX predates Blackberry devices and has been in use in embedded devices since the eighties.
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If you look at the videos they are in a Fusion with the new interior with knobs and buttons. 2016 fusion / mkz open in a few weeks. They have also said late 2015 for sync 3, maybe it will just be a job 2 change.
All I know is my 2017 raptor will have it.
Most news articles from the Sync 3 announcement in December of 2014 say that it will be available starting late 2015 in some 2016MY vehicles, with full availability in the fleet by the end of 2016 (the actual year). So yes, I would say it's safe that a 2017 will have it.
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There's no insight in any of that.
BSquare delivered a thoroughly execrable product. It has *never* worked as well as it was originally intended to. Ford screwed up royally by hiring them and has had to do nonstop damage control ever since. Why keep ranting about this? You're not going to change the past, and I doubt that you would be able to chart a path through this chaos that would result in *fewer* irritated customers without destroying Ford's bottom line.
If you're going to spend all this time digging up quotes, why not bring new info to the discussion, not stuff that we already know?
My point of the post you're replying to was merely:
1) Ford is terrible with deadlines. Any developer hoping or waiting on AppLink 3.0 as a viable integration optionis pinning hopes on something that doesn't exist yet and, with Ford's track record, may never exist. If you want to develop an AppLink app for integration, do it for the market you can do it for, not the market that "could" exist.
2) Ford seems content to let the past be the past and not take any steps to mitigate the fallout at all other than giving lip service on MFT continuing to be "supported", to solely focus effort on Sync 3 in new vehicles.
Ford took the effort to port Sync 2 to QNX for performance reasons, going as far as to hire Wipro to do it, after Ford had already decided to base Sync 3 on QNX (by all publicly available information, both projects were started in early 2013).
As far as "new to the discussion", some people earlier in this thread claimed that things like AppLink were not promised as future capability by Ford but instead merely expected and that I was "ranting" I was quoting my sources on Ford materially promising things and then failing to follow through. They didn't keep their promises from CES 2014, why would they follow anything they promised now?
You can't please everyone all of the time, but you can please some people some of the time. I'm not expecting Ford to recall every vehicle ever made with MFT and replace it with Sync 3 for free, but Ford has a really bad track record with Sync:
1) They promised a lot of features on MFT. Some god cut to stabilize, fine. Key functionality they promised is still missing. Ford won't even commit to fixing it with an uncertain deadline, they just say it's not there and there are no plans. And that the old system isn't getting features that were promised when people were researching and buying vehicles but were later abandoned. And stability/performance still isn't there.
2) Meanwhile, they're promising the moon and the stars if you buy Sync 3 in a new Ford vehicle, and it's going to wash your clothes, fold your towels, and be your robot butler, etc... obviously I am being facetious here, but Ford is already getting into the territory of promising features for Sync 3, a product that isn't even commercially available yet, that will come as a software update after said product is launched.
Ford can't use the power of love to make all MFT hardware more powerful for free, so they're not going to please every naysayer. They can't go back and add a variety of physical controls for HVAC and such that were eliminated in 2011-2014 that are now only controllable through the MFT system. They can go back and add one of the key features they promised and improve performance further (merely getting away from Flash Lite 3.1 would be a huge performance boon vs. essentially any other interface technology out there), and they can implement a key smart integration feature to MFT. Neither of which approaches inordinate cost territory.
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Ford is working on AppLink support for MyFord Touch, the company’s high-end touch screen infotainment system. AppLink is a feature that connects the car to iPhone, Android and BlackBerry to allow users to control apps like Spotify, Pandora, TuneIn and more to deliver hands-free control while driving.
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Buczkowski [of FoMoCo] Connected device wouldn’t share if this would come specifically to a 2014 Ford release, or if users could expect it on the 2013 or earlier models. During the chat, he did admit that Ford is working with Apple on the new iOS in the Car feature that is coming to iOS 7.Then Jan 2014:
We asked Jim Buczkowski back in June when we should expect support for AppLink with MyFord Touch, and we were told “soon.” Ford’s latest CES announcement expanding AppLink support definitely raised the hopes of many MyFord Touch users, but after reading through the story “MyFord Touch” is conspicuously missing from the list of future support.And then December:
At this time, we do not plan on expanding AppLink availability to MyFord Touch systems.Ford says Applink 3.0 support will come out in 2016 (as in the year 2016, not the 2016 model year), but Ford is notoriously horrible with deadlines, but Ford consistently over promises (web browser, Applink update for MyFord Touch and non-MFT vehicles) and then... failure to deliver.
Forgetting the web browser, Ford actively removes features (AM/FM browse, 3D music rotation on USB, display GPS lat/long coordinates, customizable home screen, wallpaper only display) from MFT with no indications they're ever going to reimplement them. And they removed features as they continued to update it in the name of stabilization.As far as the party line on aftermarket Sync 3 (link):
Hey Enginner5,
Due to the cost of hardware, software licensing, and labor time, there are currently no plans to offer SYNC 3 as an aftermarket installation.The rep on that account (primarily Rebecca on most forums) is kind of getting shot as the messenger, but the point still stands that I'm hardly the only person that thinks the lack of an upgrade path for MFT is ridiculous.
The response has pretty much been that line and when people say they want it aftermarket that they'll pass along the feedback.
Probably sent straight to /dev/null :P -
With an April job 1 date it's possible sync 3 (or the Lincoln version) isn't ready yet.
IBITimes says "SYNC 3 will first be available on late 2015 models, including the popular Mustang and F-150 pickup."
It's not clear whether they mean models available to order in late 2015 (e.g. the 2016 model year) or late availability within the 2015 model year. Or if they misunderstood ford (which has happened before in news articles by third parties).
I would guess that if you're talking an April 1 job date that it's not ready. Since Ford hasn't specified which vehicle will debut the new system or the timing of that debut, it's all speculation.
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The difference is the size of the app ecosystem.
If there was a huge, thriving AppLink 2 ecosystem, it would make sense to continue to foster development in that ecosystem while providing kits to enable Sync 3 systems to support MFT easily.
But as it is, there's no ecosystem, and if you figure it'll take upwards of 2 years to get one well-established and that Ford hasn't even announced version 3, look at how old MFT systems will be, on average, by that time....
Upon launch later this year, SYNC 3 will include Ford’s current version of AppLink. The next version, AppLink 3.0, will be available at a later date. Information about Ford’s new communications and entertainment system, SYNC 3, can be found at media.ford.com.
AppLink 3.0 is vaporware at this point like the internet browser in MFT and the AppLink update announcement from Jan 2014 that never came to fruition. If and when Ford launches it, it may be worth developing against. Developers haven't stopped building websites because they're waiting for HTML6 and CSS4, whenever those may come to fruition.
They're promising AppLink 3.0 some time in 2016 (they say "next year" in a press release dated today).
If you have an app that can benefit from the new HMI capabilities such as projection of images for navigation, then you can start development based on the APIs of 2.0, and then when 3.0 is finally released (if you have more faith in Ford), you can add the remainder on top. However, a lot of apps would derive 80% utility from the 2.0 version.
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We're talking past each other.
If Ford is interested in further developing AppLink to take advantage of Sync 3 as an *extension of* rather than a *replacement for* AppLink 2, then it makes no sense for Ford to push AppLink 2 development.
And yes, I understand that AppLink is an open standard, that's beside the point. CSS and HTML are both open standards--and both had their capabilities expanded dramatically with CSS3 and HTML5.
They haven't announced any future version of Applink at this point in time, and generally standards like HTML are designed to fail gracefully.
Your iPhone still supports Bluetooth 2.0 and 3.0 and 3.0 EDR devices despite having a 4.0 chip.
Developers didn't stop developing iPhone apps because retina models with a different aspect ratio were coming out (iPhone 5), they added conditional code to optimize the display if it was on an iPhone 5 or higher and conditional code to use the older size if on a 4S and lower.
Even if Ford makes enhancements in Sync 3, it doesn't prohibit devs from utilizing the classes or compatibility of Sync 2. Plus having the base communication code in that's common across all users allows developers to streamline addition of Sync 3 features later.
Just like how CSS 2.0 didn't drop all the classes of 1.0, and browsers didn't stop rendering 1.0, and you could use a combination of 1.0 and 2.0 classes, and same for CSS 3. Browsers incapable of rendering CSS 3.0 elements would render as much as they could.
It's also a compelling argument on why many sites use HTML5 elements (e.g. drag and drop files instead of a traditional selection prompt) and still have a traditional selection prompt anyways, for users who have browsers that don't support it. By developing only against Sync 3, you would cut out the potential to have millions of users with older Sync systems that support applink using your app.
I get what you're saying in that Ford may decide to move on and not implement an Applink server and client code in MFT to focus on making Applink in sync 3 better, but the argument that it isn't worth it for developers to develop against both older and newer properties doesn't really make sense to me.
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Dude - YOU HAVE A HARDWARE PROBLEM OR CORRUPTED SOFTWARE.
No other MFT owners are having those types of problems. I have 3 and they've been flawless for the last 2 years.
Your rants are misdirected.
My local dealer tells me that both are fine, although I'm going to press the issue on my next service.
As far as nobody having these problems, you wouldn't have numerous lawsuits including pending class actions if nobody was experiencing these problems. Nor would you have APIM warranty extensions. I'm not saying that every single person with MFT has issues either.
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Right. You write code to hook into the pre-Nuance voice recognition system, say, and your app has to use the clumsy pre-Nuance syntax. Then along comes Sync 3, and you either re-write your hooks, or you lose ground to an app written to take advantage of the superior voice processing in Sync 3. Trying to drum up apps that can only take advantage of a limited subset of events/voice control with a richer suite on the horizon seems counterproductive.
MS made an effort to get apps for WP7.1, but it was a pretty halfhearted one.
Also, it's not out of the question that AppLink and the GM equivalent are dead ends, with the trend seeming to head toward screen capture by the phone.
The code to hook into the voice system is voice recognition system agnostic. Regardless, Nuance provides the voice recognition capabilities in both MFT and Sync 3. The Applink protocol is text based to specify commands you expect and to pass the input back to the app. Nothing is propietary or exclusive to Sync 3 in that regard, unless Ford came up with a 3.0 protocol and only gave it access to third parties. However, all the apps they showed on screen at CES used the 2.0 version of AppLink and everything worked.
Ford has spoken on the future of in vehicle infotainment and they see the manufacturer solution coexisting with the phone driven experiences. Time will tell if this holds true or not. Right now, from a capability perspective, AppLink is far more flexible than Android Auto or CarPlay. Both of those experiences right now are severely limited (Carplay only permits media apps i.e. music/radio/podcasts; Android auto permits same plus text message apps where incoming texts are read aloud over the speakers and replies can be composed via voice command). AppLink is capable of far more including detailed hooks into the vehicle state (tach, trouble codes, fuel level, temperature, etc.).
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Stop and think.
Ford is going to a multi-touch interface and nuance speech recognition, among many other changes. Is it in their interest to flog development of apps that rely on limited and deprecated events?
"Hey Mr. Developer, spend lots of time writing an app that doesn't use swipe gestures---and then either rewrite the app when we go to 3rd gen, or watch a later developer eat your lunch"
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Good for GM. They picked a better vendor than Ford did. They also had significantly more experience dealing w/software developers than Ford.
Thanks for mentioning that. It's a reminder that even a company that prides itself on stuff that 'just works' is finding it difficult to integrate all the functionality that today's busy idiot demands from his electronics.
Applink, for driver distraction reasons and backwards compatibility, focuses on letting the infotainment system control the HMI. You can poll for events and hook into voice commands and buttons, but you don't get to freely draw buttons on the screen or capture raw movements. Nothing in the Applink 2.0 (the latest, very new) SDK supports multitouch or free drawing of graphics or anything that would be a limitation of the 2.0 system.
This is because Ford wants a very controlled, safe, non-distracting display so somebody doesn't sue them over the behavior of an AppLink app distracting them.
It is a lightweight platform agnostic protocol for smart devices to offer capabilities. Support of the capabilities on 2.0 would not hinder apps or render them incompatible in any way with 3.0, unless Ford wants to say "screw you" on backwards compatibility on their existing apps. Which would be suicide for keeping the Applink ecosystem relevant at all.
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To quantify my frustration:
I drove my Fusion for about 45 minutes today, during which time:
1) Temp kept setting to 66F driver and 65F passenger at vehicle ignition (my errands required me to stop and start a few times, so this happened all four times the ignition was started). The "my temp" is set to 70F, so I'm not sure where this memory is coming from and I can't find any reference to this in the manual.
2) Navigation spoken instructions on the built-in nav were consistently cutting off about three seconds in. So you'd hear "In a quatrer mile take exit 13 to G..." and then nothing. This requires me to either look at the right section of the dash cluster (if I have selected the navigation option to display on that screen) or the MFT touchscreen itself.
3) Music kept pausing for no reason, a problem I have had before multiple times. There's no real rhyme or reason to it, it just happens. It happens on both my Anrdoid phone and iPhone in the car, and doesn't happen on multiple other bluetooth devices. And it happens on both USB & bluetooth iun the fusion. This also can stop input of bluetooth audio for navigation and other driving related apps on my phone.
4) Separate from it pausing, the media playback buttons get out sync (har-de-har). Basically, it'll display a play icon instead of a pause when music is going to the speakers, and a pause icon (with the timer incementing). Now, sometimes when the button displays, the icon will be the opposite of what it should be, but it actually works. Other times, the play/pause buttons in the car don't work, and won't work until I unplug my phone (or disable bluetooth) and have to plug it back in, or manually manipulate the controls in whatever app on my phone is driving the music. All of which contribute to driver distraction.
5) My car has heated/cooled seats and a heated steerng wheel. There are no voice commands or tactile or any other sort of buttons other than through MFT. The sole control mechanism for these features is the MFT screen. I have to wait two seconds between button presses of these buttons before they reliably respond. Since I don't want to have to glance at the screen three times to turn the seat on to the lowest setting, I typically only manipulate these controls at a complete stop for safety reasons, diminishing my ability to enjoy a feature I paid for.
And these are all issues I encountered today, on the latest 3.7 MFT version. Called the dealer and they asked me to go in the diagnostic menu (which, for Sony audio systems at least, is go to the AM radio input and hold the fast forward button and CD eject until the screen goes black - be prepared to hit the end button in the middle to skip the deafening speaker walkthrough test) and I have the latest software on everything, there are no updates. I certainly get stabilization before feature addition certainly).
So now when I go in for my three month service they're going to read the APIM and see if any codes come up wrong but I've already asked once when having some of these issues (namely #3 & 4, although #5 was mentioned as performance). Passed last time, #3 & #4 were blamed as device issues (different devices running different software that work fine in other cars) and #5 was just a "well that's how it works I guess" thing.
I'm going to go back to the dealer for my three month service on my Fusion and see if they can find anything wrong. But at this point, every day I feel more like I am working for Sync MFT than it is working for me. And that increasingly annoys me.
EDIT: And Ford still sells this as the cat's pajamas in cars, right now. And will in 2015 MY cars you can't buy it until the 2016MY. And the dealers prop it up too. It's the type of thing that's hard to detect in a test drive because most of your time will be spent on general feel of the vehicle and not working with the infotainment system. You can try to excuse why MFT is bad, but in the end, I'm very soured by my experience with MFT.
Sync 3 might not even be significantly better but all initial looks appear promising, and with MFT being a trainwreck they abandoned BSQUARE and went between In-house, Blackberry, Wipro, and Panasonic, so they most likely learned their lesson. -
As I said before, nobody here thinks that Ford handled the MFT rollout properly.
But realistically, how much of this should come as a surprise to *anyone*?
In 2012, Ford---with an ongoing commitment to Windows embedded---launches an "applink" initiative. About a year later, they realize that Windows Embedded is not a viable platform going forward.
So what would you have them do? Continue to flog the MFT 2 initiative, knowing full well that none of the apps they approve will transfer to QNX?
What was the existing model for Ford to emulate here? What manufacturer had done something like this before Ford? What manufacturer had implemented an OS that integrated the management of industrial-level controls with internet access, and sold for $1k to retail consumers who expected to be able to use the software with ZERO training?
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Without disputing the fact that Ford has made any number of mistakes with MFT, I think it's fair to ask how reasonable it is to expect a flawless launch?
Applink predates 2012. In fact, it was announced that Applink would premiere on the 2011 Fiesta in April 2011. As far as AppLink compatibility, AppLink as a protocol is not dependent on the operating system of either the infotainment unit, nor the phone. It is abstracted. Ford provides open source code to make it easier for Android/Apple iOS devs to not have to implement all the classes as described, but the communication method is openly documented. Blackberry could make an Applink implementation for their devs, and Chevy can use Ford's code to support Applink (generically called smartdevicelink) on their receivers if they so choose, on a non-QNX and non-Windows operating system if they so desire (rumor is GM is planning on changing to Android for their infotainment systems).
Chevy MyLink launched wtihin a year of MFT (MFT announced Jan 2010, released in the first vehicle in 2011 MY, Chevy announced MyLink in early 2011 and it was available spring 2012). App integration was out of the box, and it works great. And the system didn't require numerous patches to fix.
As far as internet access, Ford over-promised. As far as the zero training thing - that kind of comes inherent to cars that people don't expect to take long to learn how to use their functions.. I don't think the issue with MFT is training at all. Ford preferred non-tactile controls such as controls exclusive to the touchscreen and touch sensitive areas (see the 2nd gen Fusion). Non-tactile controls are harder to use while the vehicle is in motion. Ford later realized this and started adding more buttons and knobs to supplement MFT controls.
MFT did not just have a flawed launch, it's still flawed. It does a fraction of what was promised (because the launch was so disastrous and staibilization had to be the #1 priority) and Ford promised things (working on Applink, internet browser, etc.) that didn't come. Ford can't run ads about how amazing Sync is and its integration with safety features and "SYNC SAVED MY LIFE" (on a Ford website, a testimonial on 911 Assist) and claim about how great it makes the car and not live up to the consequences of a failed launch. The original Sync did far less but was still an ambitious launch at its time and it did fine. Even if the ambitiousness of the launch was perhaps too far and how could one not expect problems, something is still rotten in the state of Denmark. Ford holds ultimate liability for how Sync performs and how claims of how it performed and it actually performs. Problems with reliability continue to plague Ford, with initial TSBs starting in 2011 and major extended warranties in 2012, notably the 12M02 Field Service Action. If Sync is inherently bad because Ford made bad choices, that's fine, but Ford is still liable for the fitness of the goods for the purpose for which they were sold.
I mean, Apple spent years on iTunes before they launched the App Store, and they spent years developing SDKs for OS X before they launched iOS. And they're the gold standard for launching new devices.
Also, they were led by a psychotic with (eventually) a decent head for business.
And even with all that, the first iPhone was nothing to write home about.
Apple is a software company and Ford is not. The first iPhone had no app store; that came at the same time as the second iPhone was announced in 2008 (Jobs assumed HTML5 would be king but it turns out native code can do a lot more much more quickly). Apple has more experience, but what is funny is iOS 8 is more of a misstep release with tons of issues. People hold Apple to the task because it doesn't work, just as people should hold Ford to the task for the parts they put in their cars.
I dunno. The way I look at it is this....let's say someone owned a 2004 F-150 with a regular brick radio. Say he sees in 2009 they put SYNC and nav in the F-150 and he wants it. Should Ford make that system available for owners to upgrade their system?
I just don't see it as a big deal If they don't offer the upgrade. Software updates to MFT? Yes absolutely. But there will be a limit to how far they can go with those. More modern systems require different hardware and things to run the system beyond the software, and it's not like it's just a plug-n-play deal where you pop one thing out and plug the other one in and you're done. You saw the pictures - they have to rip apart the whole dash just to change the system. I'm with akirby in saying I think the vast majority of buyers don't care about that - they want it to function well and only use the main features (audio, climate, nav, and phone). Are there some who want the latest and greatest? Obviously, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect and upgrade of that sort.
Or look at it from a different perspective. Say you buy an iPad. It's the latest and greatest at the time, you're happy. Then a few years later, they come out with a new one. They offer a software upgrade for the old one and it does most of what the new one does. You're satisfied. Then a few years later, they debut the new new iPad that offers several new features - features that the processors of your iPad can't handle, so you can't upgrade any more. Do you expect Apple to rip apart your iPad so that you can then have the latest stuff in your old iPad? Obviously that situation is a bit different, but the idea is the same.
The 2004 F-150 comparison is apples to oranges. Brick radios with less features generally work for their intended purpose without major extended warranties, and their failure only takes out the stereo - certain cars with MFT can't even turn on the defroster. The rear view camera is dependent on MFT as well. Certain other safety features are integrated. What this means is when MFT is buggy or fails, certain safety features don't work. Certain safety features that influenced a consumer's buying choice particularly. Plus all the considerations Ford came up with in applink and disabling most navigation inputs while driving for driver distraction apply if the failure of the MFT system causes driver distraction. Beyond safety features, businesses are required to sell goods fit for the purpose for which they are sold. The evidence of MFT not being fit for this purpose is sufficient for a class action lawsuit to proceed against Ford, and for said class action lawsuit's counsel to get access to the MyFord Touch source code and all internal documentation relating to problems with MFT and motivations to switch to QNX insofar as they relate to problems with MFT. Not to mention that the microphone and USB ports are not wired in older cars. These exist in cars with MFT, and the wiring harness is identical with no modification required.
The dashboard argument is also not compelling for two reasons: Ford has already launched the 12M02 field sevice actionwhich covers 5 years/unlimited mileage on the APIM (brain of sync), a warranty extension that was required because beyond the bugginess of the software the hardware often fails. The same level of dashboard disassembly is required to exchange an APIM when it fails. The exact same. The only difference when doing it with Sync 2 vs. Sync 3 is the verison of the module required. You still have to use OASIS to program the APIM after you put it in (because it's a generic part across MFT vehicles of multiple years and models, and OASIS programs it for specific features, such as navigation enabled and what model year vehicle it is so it can communicate correctly).
Ford bragged (Ford corporate publications) in 2011 how they would have to stock 90 parts for the Sync APIM for different models, except the assembly line at factories programs them via Wifi so they only have to stock one APIM for all makes and models. This means the MFT APIM (sync brain) is a generic constant part across all vehicles, which makes sense for distribution and cost reasons. The Sync 3 APIM fits in a 2013 Taurus where the Sync 2 APIM fit. While it's possible Ford could have made major modifications just because, those don't make sense from a cost perspective when it would require you to retool within a model year.
The iPad comparison falls flat because the iPad is a packaged unit made up of its parts, and for weight, space, and battery reasons, everything is directly soldered, glue is used to adhere the display to the battery, etc... cars are not manufactured in that fashion. They have more parts that are subject to more stresses that are more likely to fail. The iPad is $500 to replace when you want to upgrade it. Now the car is $30,000 USD + to upgrade. Obviously some upgrades are not just feasible from a cost perspective (e.g. major changes to body shape and size to an existing car). A stereo is designed to be removed if and when it fails.
Not to mention people are generally happy with Apple devices as fit for their intended purpose when they are released, which by admission of several people in this thread, MFT was not when it was released. Some people say MFT is "good enough" now for the average consumer, but JD Power and Consumer Reports ratings reflect the disdain people have for MFT to this day.
I'm a Ford customer in owning a Fusion, and while I love the car itself I have a lot of disdain for Sync. My job requires me to rent cars often, so I get expeirence with other systems and it's frustrating to see how much better the MyLink system from a 2013 Cruze works vs. a 2015 Fusion. I work in IT and can understand how MFT may have come to be that way, but ultimately I and everyone else don't really care about why MFT may be broken, or how that may have been a result of Ford trying to be innovative and biting off more than they can chew.
As far as stereo/infotainment upgrades being unprecedented from car OEMs, it has to be considered in both the changing landscape (the one that lead to the development of Sync in the first place) and the number of isuses/removed features/never implemented promised features for the existing system. When you combine that with evidence that Ford built it as a drop in replacement for Sync 2 so they wouldn't have to refresh/redesign every single car in 2016 to offer it, the argument that Ford should offer the upgrade to existing customers becomes more compelling.
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You realize that Ford can't magically produce an ecosystem, right? That if they can't incentivize developers, they can't produce apps.
Of course not. Of course, for there to be any possibility of an app ecosystem, ford would have to release a software development kit and appropriate documentation on how to make apps for that system in MFT.
Which they never did. There is an SDK available for AppLink, but the install applications feature on MFT never had apps come out because Ford never released the information and material to do it.
There are multiple class action lawsuits pending over MFT (the biggest one with 20 members representing the class is just starting discovery, with Ford and the plantiff's counsel agreeing on terms for Ford to give over MFT source code and documents relating to MFT, problems, recalls, and decision to go with QNX in Sync 3 insofar as they relate to the problems of MFT). What's probably going to happen is that some time before October 2016 is that Ford will settle the class action lawsuit to avoid the ongoing costs of litigation and all the MFT owners will get a check for $20 and a working system when we buy newer vehicles.
If they don't settle before October 2016 the case goes to trial and all the not-so-nice things and recalls and documentation on failure rates goes in front of a jury.
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When it has come to Sync/MFT Ford has been over promise and under deliver. (actually that has been marketing from the time Farley showed up)
As for updates, I can still run the new iOS on a 4 year old iPhone, I am aware that I don't have all the functions of the new version, but I still get updates. Ford would have been wise to issue updates that changed the graphics a bit, and gave an updated feel every year. Even if the new QNX system didn't have all the options on a 2011 car (no multitouch, wireless updates etc) as it did on a 2016 car, people with the 2011 car would have felt the company just didn't abandon them.
Obviously some features are hardware and base platform dependent so I agree with what you said on multitouch and wireless updates not coming, but Ford promises things and takes them away.
Mid 2013, they say they're working on applink (but no timeline) for MFT, Feb2014, Ford rep says that AppLink will not be available on MFT; please do not shoot the messenger. Two weeks later, Ford announces Sync 2 (name for MFT in europe) for the 2015 Ford Kuga and says that when it launches it will have Sync 2 with voice control and Applink. Then there are forum posts in German from December with people who bought the 2015 Focus with Sync 2 and they indicate that it doesn't have Applink.
The whole situation is a mess, and Ford needs to maintain an adequate, customer visible roadmap of what enhancements are planned and when they plan to add them.
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You mean I can't upgrade my 1080P HDTV to a 4K HDTV?
I want my money back!!!!!
It's more in this case like that you can't get a 4K TV without buying an entirely new house because the manufacturer of the house and TV are the same, and the manufacturer refuses to sell the TV without the house, and even if you did it requires a special password to work (the tweaking of the software to use the CAN bus appropriately by model).
We live in a free country and there's nothing illegal about Ford deciding to not sell SYNC 3 as an upgradeable module to current owners, even if it is something that could be easily swapped in (which for the 2013 Taurus both the screen and sync APIM are direct fits, but perhaps other cars are different). The upgrade may be directly compatible, but Ford may think current owners are content enough or not willing to spend the required amount of money to make offering the upgrade to existing models feasible.
I am going to mail a letter to Dearborn with my thoughts (frustration with MFT, interest in Sync 3, interest to potentially upgrade for parts + labor if an upgrade kit is available) so at a minimum they have my feedback. One letter might not make a difference, but if Ford sees enough feedback, they may choose to explore such an option or otherwise more adequately explain why it won't work other than "it's new hardware and software".
More than anything, Ford promised an app ecosystem in 2010 for MFT that never came to be. They didn't promise "it runs apps", Even the Applink update promised at CES 2014 for non-MFT cars is still not out with no announcement of if or when it will come out, with the Ford line on it being "no comment". They told the press that they were working on Applink for MFT in 2013, and it still isn't here, with the party line once again being no information at this time, even in 2015.
They had to tear the system to shreds to stabilize it (removal of the web browser, the lack of any SDK or any released apps using the non-Applink "install apps" feature of MFT,etc.) and most owners are on an update from 2013 with no further updates obvious. Ford gives the line that they're still updating MFT even after announcing Sync 3, but with most owners going over a year without updates and ford giving all attention to the shiny new toy while not talking about anything of substance in regards to MFT other than stating that it'll continue to be supported, and what are you supposed to believe?
The quotes from the connected car guys like Don Butler go on about how they want to be compatible with everything because they don't want to to base your choice on a $30K car on a $300 smartphone, and talk about the rapidly changing pace of technology, but then utterly fail to address the point that they're deisgning the connectivity hub (Sync) in a way where it cannot be upgraded in the car that will be relevant much longer. With Android Auto and Carplay we may be able to more realistically achieve that. Now I don't expect those experiences for MFT because they were created much later and I imagine you'll need the extra horsepower from a more powerful processor than MFT has, but MFT as the premium connectivity option lacks true smartphone integration (beyond calls and bluetooth/USB audio).
Their refusal to talk at CES 2015 about anything that is actually being sold today and is in millions of cars is telling that Ford has missed the point, once again.
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I notice that you can see one of Ford's last double DIN heads in that shot.
You have no idea how much some people used to gripe about Ford's boring double-DINs back in the day....... Thinking back to your earlier remarks about the industry moving away from that form factor.
And now people are wishing for those days back....
Japanese arcade machine manufacturers got this right in the 1985. Controls, power, display, sound, etc. all went to one standard connector. Rather than ordering a $3,000+ machine, where much of the cost was a totally new cabinet, you could buy an $1,000 motherboard and put new posters/display art on the side/under the glass. Arcade manufacturers made more money because the money was made on the games, not the expensive cases required to run them, and arcade manufacturers could aquire more games / break even more quickly.
Maybe we need a new DIN standard for bigger touch oriented displays, at least on a make specific level. The inputs aren't changing that much. Sure we're getting more and more exterior and interior sensors all the time, but it's not like we're ignoring the old ones. And the stuff that changes the most anyways (processor, amount of RAM, wifi/bluetooth standards supported, etc.) is on one logic board.
The accessory kit for Sync for the 2009 MY vehicles that lacked it was under $550 installed accoridng to press releases from Ford (price on ford accessories has gone up since). Given a capacitive multitouch display and generally more powerful hardware, I would expect it would cost more for a Sync 3 retrofit. But the actual install vs the accessory kit from 2009 is likely a wash on difficulty (unless ford made some wacky change internally; they didn't, at least for the 2013 taurus all mount points and the wiring harness is identical). The 2009 kit didn't require replacement of the screen, but it did require mounting USB, routing a microphone, using wire ties to secure the unit, splicing wire, etc... and Ford still offered it, with a warranty.
The difference being of course is there's some smart functionality in MFT that didn't exist in non-sync equipped vehicles, so the carrot may have been stronger. Being that I don't work for FoMoCo, I don't know how many of those accessory kits they actually sold.
And it sold so well they rolled it out to all of the other vehicles?
How many did they sell? 3?
Who knows unelss ford releases the statistics? For the majority of vehicles, Sync was made standard on almost all models by the end of the 2009 MY, so it couldn't have been millions (obviously off by more than an order of magnitude there), but it's impossible to say if it was single digits or double or a number where breakeven occurred.
I'm not sure what the complaining is about....when do you ever see an auto manufacturer offer the next gen infotainment system to the owner of a previous gen system? The hardware and whatnot required isn't in the car - I mean you saw what the guy with the Taurus had to do to get it in there - he only had to take out the entire dash, no big deal, right? I mean come on?
Similar work was required for the 2009 Sync Accessory Kit to install (actually more since there were more pieces required to be removed/altered to get the USB and mic routed + wire spliced). As far as the amount coming out of the front dash for him to swap it out, Ford already does this when they exchange defective Sync MFT mobos (the accessory protocol interface module/APIM - so commonly failing they extended the warranty to 5 years/unlimited miles). It's not quite as easy as changing the cabin air filter, but it's hardly some never done procedure.
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Nothing
Regrettable. They may still announce something still. Here's to hoping Ford hears feedback and considers selling the Sync upgrade separately.
Ford did sell the Sync module separately for 2009 Mustangs as part 9R3Z-14D212-A. That didn't require replacement of the display, but it did require wiring in the whole brain of the sync system and mounting it, and running the USB wires/mic/bunch of other stuff, which makes it seem like that install was apparently harder. And people did go for it. Maybe Ford will change their mind on offering an upgrade kit at some point.
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I go to navigation.com where they have the updated cards for your particular model. What I don't understand is they are charging you for a new card. Am I missing something?
The POIs are part of the navigation software as a whole, which means you have to buy a new navigation SD to update the points of interest.
To be fair, the new A5 SD cards seem to be going for about $50 on eBay, a third of their price directly from Ford. That's not the worst cost of entry, although a windshield GPS is often under $100 for lifetime traffic and map updates (including POIs) nowadays.
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Similar 8 speed transmissions have been in use for quite some time. This is not cutting edge technology.
Similar and the same are different things, and it's also application dependent. The transverse V6 in certain Accords, TLs, MDXs, and Honda SUVs went really bad, especially in the MDX where the same powertrain was paried with a more poweful engine (subjecting the transmission to further strain). Same thing happened in the 90s with the Subaru SVX. It's hard to predict every possible failure that may happen.
In the case of the Acura MDX, a lot of people failed just outside of the 50,000 mile warranty. In the case of someone I know, the entire transmission gave out at 51,000. The repair was done for goodwill before Honda formally extended the repairs on the transmission to 8yr/80K.
Even if the technology of adding more gears in and of itself is not new, I'd rather wait so Ford can see how it does and learn from their mistakes. No matter how much you try to test it before you sell it, there's no way to discover all the problems before you start selling it. Same thing happens with TSBs for cars when they're redesigned for a year (tons of issues the first year, less the second and so on), except if it's a smaller problem you can repair the part if an issue occurs. If an entire transmission has an unforseen design flaw (e.g. it turning out that it was too small for the MDX, but even generally it ended up leaking over time worse and worse in vehicles that had it), it's not something you can just fix with a TSB. You can extend the warranty and fix it when it breaks, but it's a problem that will plague the car for the rest of its life, including when you end your coverage.
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Another option is that the folks who were so busying getting sync 3 out the door can now go back and do some maintenance and bug fixes on it and regular sync without MFT. I'm hoping they just didn't have the resources to do both at the same time and will now go back and fix some things.
The POIs are part of the maps on the SD card - not the MFT software. It comes from a third party - forgot which one exactly.
There's also the possibility that there was so much effort being poured into rewriting MFT on QNX and getting it tested/ready to distribute that it wasn't worth duplicating that effort on the Microsoft WEfA platform. It would explain why some cars haven't seen a sync update since 2013. The only update in 2014 (3.7.y) was exceedingly minor for some localization in Europe and a couple of small text tweaks, no major bugfixes or enhancements.
Regarding POIs - yes, they are generally sourced from a third party. Apple Maps initially used a poor quality POI database from a third party, and all the users understand is that they can't find expected POIs and they judged the product as a combined whole.
Even so, the issue is not the POI existing but the MFT system being so rigid in how it understands the name of the POI that it has to be recited exactly as stored. If the POI is stored as Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport, MyFord Touch will only find the POI if you say that exactly. Where as Sync3 would match the parts of "Detroit airport" and "Detroit Metropolitan airport". The POI DB is part of the equation, but the main problem is POI names are often more verbose than street signs (e.g. "Starbucks Coffee" POI, Starbucks as voice input.... "Walmart Supercenter", most people would say Walmart... etc.). Understanding more natural language input is really on the front end parses the speech result in the infotainment system.
Ford could have the greatest voice recognition engine in the world (and Nuance makes an excellent Speech-To-Text engine), but the rigidity of how it interprets what it's told still controls a lot of the user experience. The voice recognition engine is just going to tell Sync what you said. If ford's sync software will only interpret street numbers exceeding single digits if you individually say each digit, that's the rule. If matching voice input to POIs is done only if a literal match is found (MFT does, Sync3 will match parts of POI names), that's the way it is.
MyFord Touch v3.8 adds Siri Eyes Free!
in Audio, My Touch, SYNC, Navigation
Posted · Edited by coopny
Instrument cluster resets while driving taking out both information displays and the speedo (screens go white, speedo needle light goes out and speedo needle falls to zero while driving) Recovers within 10 seconds. First time it happened scared the crap out of me
Severe bluetooth issues on iOS (although Apple seems to have some issues here on non-Ford vehicles and devices, so I can't entirely blame MFT for this one).
Random freezing and slowness (freezing means requiring a fuse to pull, slowness means intermittent slowdowns where the system is non-responsive for periods up to 20 seconds).
Issues when using navigation and switching back to the radio from the navigation "corner" where the navigation replaces the background on non-navigation pages (climate, radio).
Some smaller ones - I am trying to keep a running list to see if there's any possibility some bugs may be caused by another part (I know that MFT is connected to portions of the vehicle beyond itself, so if anything else is wrong, I want it fixed in the bumper-to-bumper warranty).
I'm going in for my first major service (1yr/10k mi) and the problems seem to have been getting worse within the past couple months (e.g. higher frequency) so I'm going to mention that and see what they say. Maybe the APIM is just bad. Of course I need to test 3.8 and see if it fixed any of this (The phone bluetooth issues are still not resolved, but at least the automatic reconnect increases the chances that it comes back after a disconnect).
I'm really hopeful that there's a downport of the QNX core because QNX as a RTOS is much leaner than WinCE and a more modern leaner package for infotainment that's still being supported (Microsoft has basically lost interest in the field) and may result in some features (beyond Siri Eyesfree) being more likely to be ported down. It remains to be seen. Reviewing the 3.8 update file timestamps, it's clear that development on the update took ~1yr and features fixed according to the changelog is a small list (but they aren't reporting bug fixes), and it's also clear by filetypes and content that it's still running on WinCE with Adobe Flash Lite 3.1 for the screen elements.