['07 Fusion V6 Acceleration Stumble]

Here's a thought.

 

Can anyone give me information on the typical range of manifold pressure under light acceleration? My condition happens only when the MAP reading is at or close to standard ATM. I'm wondering if that's typical. If it's not, it would suggest excessive EGR flow, would it not? (or a restriction in the exhaust, which would be odd, considering how well it runs at the top end) Is it typical for there to just be almost NO vacuum under light acceleration around 1500 rpm?

 

Anyone have some comparison data?

 

I should also note that today it ran almost perfectly smooth, so that was weird. I've changed nothing.

['07 Fusion V6 Acceleration Stumble]

So, AFAIK, I don't have an EGR vacuum regulator, because I also don't have a DPFE. It's just an electronic stepper motor EGR with data from the MAP sensor. Am I vastly incorrect? I know which device you're talking about, as I've seen it when working on 4.6 modular. I like the SWAGs though.

 

I'm wondering if that suggests the issue could be in the EGR valve itself though, since so many of these issues center around the EGR. I might just try disconnecting the EGR valve, which equally will provide me with a check engine light, but you're right in that it might give me some good insight.

 

I'd be perfectly willing to jump at the idea of replacing the clutch. It doesn't seem that difficult to do, in general. However, on this particular platform, I can't see any way under the sun that I'd be able to get a puller and whatnot anywhere near where the compressor is. If I recall, from changing the belt a couple months ago, that there's not even enough room between the unibody and the face of the compressor to realistically fit my hand in! In the case of it needing to be removed, I really can't see why I'd take the gamble on all that work and not just go ahead and replace the entire compressor/clutch assembly. As I mentioned before, I've been pondering it, but I really can't justify the cost and whatnot.

['07 Fusion V6 Acceleration Stumble]

So...yeah. I replaced the MAP sensor, since it is the reporter of EGR flow to the PCM. There are a lot of symptoms posted online that seriously parallel mine that just happen to be EGR related. The MAP sensor, replaced with another FoMoCo part, changed very little. I did notice slightly different readings, seemingly a bit more accurate across the pressure range, but nonetheless, not a problem solver.

 

While it has continued to be cool out, I've been able to pretty consistently nail down the link of the A/C compressor's load to the shuddering during acceleration. What I can't nail down is which part of the puzzle is causing the issue. As previously mentioned, it very well could be the clutch not able to steadily drive the compressor, hence the uneven load, but that's sorta debunked by the fact that raising the RPMs in neutral, with the A/C on, issues no sort of uneven feedback from the compressor. This doesn't rule out the compressor exhibiting a higher load than what would be considered normal, but that's one heck of an expensive guess, especially when the system blows frosty air. Everything seems ideal about the engine when the compressor is off. It's almost unbearably annoying when it's on, it almost feels like the car is running out of gas under some conditions.

 

There must be someone who understands the PCM's programming well enough to explain how on earth this is happening? I just can't see how an A/C compressor's load is going to practically cripple the performance of a perfectly healthy V6, unless the PCM is just completely missing the boat on adapting to the higher load condition. I've been watching some of the parameters constantly on a scangauge II and I see nothing but repeats of precisely the same condition. The MAP rises almost to ~14.7 psi (ATM), Ign Adv #1 drops down to 2-3 deg, then -2, or further, and the shake begins. It's like watching in slow motion every time it happens, because it really is what you'd expect for parameters when an engine has met its match for load. The only difference is, most of us experience this as a bog down in performance, but who ordered it a shake on the side?

 

Today reminded me how annoying it is even when I'm not accelerating. Under low RPM cruise control, say around 50mph, the engagement of the A/C compressor quite noticeably jerks the whole car, as if the engine was experiencing a massive intermittent misfire on a single cylinder.

 

tl;dr Car still accelerates rough with the A/C on. What next?

['07 Fusion V6 Acceleration Stumble]

Oh, now that's an interesting thought. The compressor not be engaging smoothly, which also could mean that it's potentially slipping under drive, which could be putting an unadaptable intermittent load on the engine, which is exacerbated when the engine isn't at peak torque and already under load.

 

As it turns out, I actually have witnessed the rather aggressive action of the clutch on this car's AC compressor whilst under the hood with the engine running. The engagement is less of a "click" that I've become accustomed to on this style of comp, but more of a "BONK" with a sort of muffled metallic tone to it.

['07 Fusion V6 Acceleration Stumble]

Us folks in the south run the air conditioning in our cars quite a bit more often than those in many other parts of the country. It's finally gotten cool enough to run the car without A/C. I didn't really consider the A/C to be aggravating the symptoms of the stumble, but as it turns out, it does.

 

The stumbling and whatnot almost entirely disappears when the A/C compressor is not engaged. Now, the A/C compressor is original, but the A/C works wonderfully, and has been recharged and whatnot in the past couple of years, so I'm not trying to suggest that it is a problem in of itself, but moreso that the PCM isn't adapting correctly to the additional load at a given RPM. I'll also mention that the serp belt is new, as well as all the pulleys and the tensioner. This offered no change.

 

I've also been noticing with a little bit of research that the same generation of 2.3L I4 duratec also had these almost identical problems. Due to that engine probably being a little wider spread, it's discussed more. One of the main solutions for the 2.3 is related to the EGR. I haven't discovered what the exact interaction is between the EGR and the stumble, but they do appear very heavily linked for that series of duratec.

 

If you're wondering why I'm trying to compare and 4 cylinder to a 6 cylinder, it's due to the fact that the programming between these engines (ignition advance maps, etc) are probably very similarly calculated, and thus are responding to similar conditions in an identical fashion. Mechanically, the Duratec 30 is a work of art with how perfectly reliable it is in so many ways, so this must be some sort of software response issue caused by some additional parameter.

 

I haven't forgotten about the change that the transmission fluid made on the behavior of the whole situation, but I'm chalking it up to the newer fluid's ability to allow torque converter slip to absorb the majority of the shocks from the engine stumble. As I've learned, this is a temporary condition, but thankfully, now that I've been able to drive for several days with no A/C on, I can put a pretty clean bill of health on the majority of the power train, which relieves me to no end.

 

Has anyone experienced an EGR issue with these engines, or any other type of sensor that could cause this condition? Recall that when this stumble occurs the PCM sees engine loads at nearly, or at 100%, which under light throttle, low RPM acceleration, causes the PCM to pull timing past zero, causing the shudder.

 

I've found also that the majority of issues found with the Duratec relating to this issue (including the 24v DOHC Duratec 30) was involving the DPFE (differential pressure feedback EGR sensor), which frequently failed on earlier iterations of the duratec engines. However, I'm seeing that the only EGR related components for this specific generation of Duratec 30 is the EGR valve itself. Where is the PCM getting its EGR flow information from on this engine?

EDIT: It seems that this generation of Duratec gets the EGR flow information from the MAP sensor (please correct me if I'm wrong).

 

I'm going to take a closer look at some EGR parameters on my scantool(s) to see if I can see any significant differences in what the PCM is seeing and should be seeing for "actual EGR" and "commanded EGR", assuming those parameters are available.

 

A couple of links that explain the phenomenon happening with other Ford Duratec series/generations:

http://www.focushacks.com/mod/DPFE_Sensor_and_EGR_Information

http://www.suitorsgarage.com/projects/projectstaurus1.html

[2nd Gen Seats in a 1st Gen Fusion]

The occupancy sensor is something I hadn't even thought of. Because it's in the track and the fact that the seats are very similar, I would probably agree with the idea that the bolt pattern is probably the same to the track. Does the ford system require a calibration of the sensor after being toyed around with?

 

My only issue is that, as I'm sure you're aware, the early first gens had issues with the passenger seat and it's squeaking issue. Mine definitely has that issue and was hoping to eliminate that as a fringe benefit of swapping in new seats.

 

I have not performed the full procedure of the TSB regarding that seat squeak issue, but imagine it would be a good time to do that if swapping out the seats. I took the seat out a couple of years ago and put some thick felt tape in places where it seemed like the squeak could be occurring, but didn't do the widening of the hole where the track meets the body. My quick fix improved the initial issue significantly, but it is still present at odd times when a passenger is present. On a side note, any tips/tricks on that TSB procedure that have prevented comebacks?

 

I've already tracked down two different cars that have the exact seats that I'm looking for, and the prices are actually more reasonable than I was expecting. It's sort of annoying that they're both in the northern midwest though. Definitely wouldn't want to commit to something like that unless I was 100% sure on the compatibility.

[2nd Gen Seats in a 1st Gen Fusion]

I like the idea of finding 2nd gen (2010-2012) fusion leather and installing it in my first gen SEL. The seats in my 2011 SEL were so much better than the seats are in my 2007. Granted, it seems that the leather in my 07 is significantly more durable, as it is in very good condition overall for having 145k miles on it, including the drivers seat. The leather is clearly much softer in the second gen as the color was already wearing off my light colored leather in the 2011 after only 50k miles, but still. I'll take the trade off for the huge comfort upgrade, including the option for the power passenger seat, which I cringe at not having for my front seat passenger(s).

 

In addition, it also seemed like the driver's seat allowed a slightly lower seating position in my 2011, as my head is in contact with the headliner in the 2007 when the seat height is at absolute minimum.

 

Issues I'm foreseeing:

• Airbag compatibility?
• female seat belt buckle electrical connector change? (I haven't actually checked whether it's a part of the seat assembly, or if it's bolted to the floor)

Insight on this?

['07 Fusion V6 Acceleration Stumble]

Interesting. How many miles were on it?

['07 Fusion V6 Acceleration Stumble]

Well that explains why my 2011 6F35's Mercon LV used to oxidize fluid like it was its job. That stuff would be an uncomfortably dark red before 10,000 miles. If I didn't change the fluid every 15k, it'd do the typical rolling gear hunt with a constant jerking, or maybe more of a jolt. It only seemed to not break down the fluid once I switched it over to Redline D6.

 

I have to say, this aisin trans still feels more put together at 144k than that 6F35 did by 60-70k.

['07 Fusion V6 Acceleration Stumble]

Yeah, this car has already had the ECU update for relating to the transmission concerns per the applicable TSB. It got that update right after I got it, around 107k in early 2014. Among other obvious issues present, that update massively improved the rough 1-2 shift it had when I got it (which was the reason behind me changing the ATF within the first week of ownership).

 

Overall, the transmission being trouble free is why I originally got the V6 model over the less-reliable Mazda transmission that the 4 cylinder was equipped with. My guess is that this is either an issue just inherent to the valve body having issues, or there's always the potential that some Joe Blow quick lube shop flushed out the transmission at some point, not using the correct fluid, or maybe a universal fluid, which may have accelerated the wear on the torque converter, since it's a slip-lock converter.

 

I'll keep the fluid changed. Cheap insurance at only ~$18.00 every 5k miles.

 

It's not that I'm really that worried about it failing, it's just that, like most people, it's a severe inconvenience to have a failure of that magnitude happen when unplanned, especially when not in-town.

 

I learned of that thermostat when I was reviewing the procedure for the in-vehicle valve body replacement (yeah, I'll get right on that), but I was assuming that it'd allow the fluid to hang out around 170-190 degrees without too much of an issue. I can't imagine they'd set the thermostat value higher than 150-160? Unless you know differently, of course?

[Hankook Dynapro HT OEM Tires - Warranty?]

You need to find a Hankook dealer....Ford did not make the tires so why would Ford warranty them.

 

I agree completely. Two of the Bridgestone OEM tires that came on our new car we purchased last year had high road force values, causing a really unpleasant feel on the highway. The dealer(s) wouldn't touch it, and always seem to not know how to handle tire related issues (which I personally find to be unacceptable, as a former dealership service writer (non-FoMoCo). I popped into my local Firestone, and they not only replaced the tires, no questions asked, no fee, but they upgraded me to a higher-end Bridgestone with a longer tread life at my request, for no cost.

 

I, as someone who's been on both sides of the counter for these types of issues, would advise that you contact Hankook. In the case of a treadlife issue, there may be only a prorated credit awaiting you, but that's much better than paying full price. I'd be extremely surprised if they didn't refer you to a local Hankook dealer for a tire prorate evaluation. I'd actually sort of recommend Sears Auto Center if you've got one near you. Their POS makes it really easy for them to do an accurate proration, and that would also give you some history with them if you ever need warranty tire service when you're travelling, versus a small independent shop. I'm assuming they still sell Hankook, of course.

['07 Fusion V6 Acceleration Stumble]

As it turns out...it seems that the majority of the issue had nothing to do with the engine at all.

 

After I drove for a few hundred miles with just the ignition system replaced and tune up done, I could still tell the engine was running much smoother and was significantly more responsive (the midrange to high RPM highway acceleration is outstanding compared to before and the power band is silky smooth) but once the ECU began to relearn all parameters after being reset, the issue began to return.

 

I went with a theory based on something that was happening with my friend's 2013 Accord V6 where it was shuddering BADLY under light acceleration from a stop, and simply replacing the fluid (only 48k miles on it at the time) completely, and I mean completely solved the issue.

 

So I ordered up a case of Mobil 3309 (if anyone is ever looking for it, it's available by the 12 qt case on amazon for just over $5/qt)

 

It was the transmission. More specifically, it seems to be that the friction modifier had worn out in the fluid, causing some strange behavior from the torque converter. With a replacement of 6.5 qts of fluid, the issue actually is nearly gone, with the exception of a hiccup blip here and there when the transmission loads and unloads. My guess is that it's either something to do with the torque converter itself, or possibly just the valve body is beginning to show typical signs of issue, especially since the behavior from the transmission can be oddly erratic these days. It can seem to get lost and during an up-shift under light throttle, and sometimes feel very dicey when doing a 1-2 shift under moderate acceleration. It still shines 90% of the time, and most importantly isn't jerking around at 1500 RPM anymore. The engine, overall, now feels like it's back in its prime, similar to the way my 2011 SEL V6 felt when I bought it at 35k, and the powertrain, as a whole, feels like it's really quite nominal for most of its function. It's amazing what you'd never expect fluid to fix.

 

Just in case anyone is wondering, no, I didn't have the wrong fluid in the transmission, and yes, I had just changed it recently. I performed two drain and fills with Toyota T-IV in July 2015 at 132k, and just 5 days ago did another two drain and fills at 144k. A 12,000 mile interval isn't what I had in mind for changing the ATF, but it seems to be a necessity. I suppose I'll do a single drain/fill re-freshening about every 7,500 miles for the remaining duration of my ownership. Maybe it'll keep the transmission happy. As a side note, the drain plug had no significant metal on the magnet (not nearly as much as I've seen on several other normally operating transmissions). The drained fluid was bright red (though not nearly as bright translucent pink as the new Mobil 3309). My guess is that the high heat (my transmission temps are ~210 degrees (F) during typical, even light, extra-urban driving) is simply destroying the properties of the factory spec fluid.

 

I'm not sure if anyone's added a magnefine and/or an ATF cooler to their V6 fusion of this generation, but it might be something I'll look into if I decide to keep it for a bit longer. When I was under the car, I was eyeing the lines, but everything is very cramped compared to vehicles that I've installed filters and coolers on before; I'm not even sure where to mount them.

 

I'm also pondering using something like SeaFoam TransTune, a product I've used in GM Hydramatic transmissions to dissolve built up varnish from high heat operation with excellent results, even one with terrible torque converter shudder was improved with a combo of that, a fluid change, and some Lucas Trans Fix. Dexron, which was the application fluid for every transmission I've used that method on, is a significantly different fluid than JWS 3309 spec fluid, so I'm a little bit apprehensive about using it at all. Has anyone ever used it in an Aisin transmission with positive results?

 

 

tl;dr: The COP/plug replacement did not solve the issue. The transmission was shuddering under low RPM load, seemingly caused by the fluid. What's the deal with the fluid only lasting 12k miles? Who has added a cooler to their car? Any other solutions to make this transmission happy for a while?

['07 Fusion V6 Acceleration Stumble]

OK, back for a one-week update. I went ahead and dropped some money on parts. I got 6 new Delphi coils (as I found that the US made Delphi coils were the OEM part for FoMoCo, at much lower cost), 6 NGK Iridium IX plugs gapped at 0.054" and a new set of intake gaskets. My online order got delivered yesterday afternoon, and what showed up were a couple of the US Delphi coils, which, it just so happens were FoMoCo destined parts with the FoMoCo markings removed, and had been reboxed in Delphi labeled containers, and the remaining 4 were full Delphi branded coils, but unfortunately the boxes were marked as made in China. I really hope the quality is the same, but if the part appearance has anything to do with it, they actually look like higher quality parts than their US FoMoCo counterparts!

 

I got everything installed this morning. I didn't remove the lower intake portion because I didn't remember to get new injector o-rings, so those gaskets will just have to be fine being original (as I forgot to get those o-rings the first time I changed the plugs too! ). I also took a few minutes to thoroughly clean up the throttle body while I was in there as well. The last time I did the plugs, I didn't pull the TB off the intake, so I never cleaned up the back-side. It really wasn't the worst I'd ever seen, but the idle position was definitely partially blocked by gunk. I took it out as soon as I got everything cleaned up... (ahh, new coils: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ffze4fbutwl2fpv/2016-09-16%2010.53.52.jpg?dl=0 )

 

Unfortunately, under high load, mid throttle, low-RPM conditions, such as those that were pulling timing back to between -6 to -9 degrees is still somewhat present, but to a much lesser degree, now only ~-3 degrees AT WORST. Actual drivability has improved by a very significant amount. There is a small blip of what feels like the misfire that was present previously, but now only a fraction of the frequency compared to before. In other words, when placing the vehicle in conditions where it would repetitively almost buck with a misfire every second in succession, now produces a very light blip of a misfire every 3-5 seconds, and only in those conditions. Under most other conditions that would also exhibit those stumbles and whatnot previously are now met with at least 5-6 degrees of timing advance with a VERY beautiful LOW and SMOOTH sound that only comes from a loaded engine that is well tuned. Off-idle throttle response is glass-smooth now, which I'd primarily attribute to the TB cleaning, but I know it's also from the new ignition components. I also noticed that it now idles (neutral) with ~10 degrees of advance (+/- 1 deg), whereas it was sitting around 6-7 degrees prior. It's clearly happier about the situation.

 

I took a picture of the plugs I pulled out, which were still gapped precisely at 0.054" as when I installed them, but they look significantly more beaten up than I'd expect for plugs with only ~40,000 miles on them! https://www.dropbox.com/s/wjtpbynrqjb5xdo/2016-09-16%2010.56.20.jpg?dl=0 Those are in order of cylinder number, 1-6. I find the orange residue interesting, which appears to be primarily on the front bank of plugs...

 

It should be noted that the oil residue on the threads was not accompanied by a massively full spark plug tube of oil. The original PCV valve on the car clogged up and was causing HUGE amounts of oil to be burned and was leaking big time from the rear valve cover. This clearly was also heading into the spark plug tubes, but there wasn't more than a drop or two of oil in the tubes today. I'm assuming that the fouling on the plugs can be attributed to the insane amount of oil the engine was burning before I discovered that it was the PCV. (~1 qt every 500 miles would go missing. After PCV change, it burns about 1 qt every 7500 miles and leaks none).

 

Anyways, I'm sorry about the long read, but all-in-all, I'm wondering what else could be causing the remaining misfires under load? I'm sort of an automotive perfectionist when it comes to some of this stuff, and misfires are filed under my "can not have" list.

['07 Fusion V6 Acceleration Stumble]

Yep. Those screenshots are taken just a few minutes after I did exactly that. I took it for a 15 minute drive, and made it happen as long as, and as much as possible, with no change in Mode 6 readings.

 

So, you're saying I need to drop by a dealer and have an MDT jump on IDS and do some diag? Or, of course, just replace all the coils.

 

Since the diagnosis fee would add to my overall cost, especially in the case of them recommending that I replace all 6 coils (can you see it coming? I can.), I might as well just replace at least 3 or just bite the bullet and do all 6.

 

Fun.

 

Thank you for your insight!

['07 Fusion V6 Acceleration Stumble]

All of my Mode 6 looks pretty good. O2 sensor voltage seems balanced. Here's a bunch of screenshots from the scanner. https://goo.gl/photos/kMpCB8LXWcY8JKwN9Any ideas?

 

Thank you for your help!

['07 Fusion V6 Acceleration Stumble]

I like these ideas, but it seems all of them point toward replacing the coils if not just because they'll eventually take out the PCM, because they're most definitely causing some or all of the issue. My scanner does display Mode 6 if I recall. I'll have to take a look at that.

 

Also, yeah, I changed the plugs at 105k miles, so if I was doing the back coils, it wouldn't be INSANE to change them again, especially going by how bad my 2011 SEL V6's plugs looked at only 65k. And also, just to clarify, of course I used new intake gaskets when I did those, so it's not a vacuum leak issue or anything.

['07 Fusion V6 Acceleration Stumble]

Coil has been my vote for quite some time, as it sometimes feels like a similar but much more pronounced version of the modular V8 coil failure/impending failure feeling. However, without an IDS just hangin' out on my toolbox, and of course me not wanting to just up and buy 6 coils for fun (or any reason for that matter), is there any other type of narrowing-down suggested? I've checked for vacuum leaks and the fuel trims stay pretty tight to zero during most conditions. I'm also aware of the apparent PCM failure that can occur from failed coil(s) (per TSB),which I'd like to prevent if possible. If/when I get a moment this weekend, I'll see if I can get an eye on the throttle plate just to see if I can rule out any strange fluttering at low throttle inputs, which I'm doubting since it doesn't stumble in neutral.

 

Also, here's an extremely boring, but possibly illustrative screenshot video of conditions as I drive around through different extra-urban conditions.

It's gotten a bit more severe since the day I took that video, but it's close enough. Cliff's Notes: A sustained period of timing pull can be seen at about 4:00, and if you let it play through 5:00, you'll see a roughly 2/3 throttle acceleration that shows how the issue is entirely missing when under higher throttle scenarios.

 

I figure I can't be the only one who has experienced this!

 

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the insight.

['07 Fusion V6 Acceleration Stumble]

Hey everyone,

 

I've got an issue with my '07 Fusion V6 (143k miles) involving a heavy stumble (sort of like a misfire) under light acceleration (not enough to cause a kickdown). The window of the worst behavior is between ~1400-1700 RPM. There are zero warning lights, all maintenance is current, and the only parameter (that my basic scantool can see) that parallels the behavior is a clear loss in timing advance, frequently pulling timing back all the way to around -6 degrees. There is absolutely no sign of malfunction when the engine is revved in neutral, it's smooth as silk, and there is also no sign of malfunction when RPMs are greater than the aforementioned window. This condition has continued to get worse as time goes on, and thus I haven't been able to pinpoint any particular time or mileage when it began.

 

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.