JAAF150

You like to pick and choose facts. I have yet to talk with anyone at DCX who considers the Charger a failure, the choice of name a failure or the inventories of this car out of hand. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO POST DCX INVETNORIES BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SUPPORT YOU CLAIM! Fact is, the Charger inventory stood at 56 days on June 1 (vs. 83 days for the 500) and the Brampton plant still runs three shifts (how many Ford plants are on three shift). The car sells over 10,000 units in most months, something the 500 cannot claim. You let you jealousy of the DCX's success cloud your judgment. DCX is not perfect. Fact was June was tough for everybody but Toyota. However, DCX has taken an approach that has been far more successful than Ford's. The problems that they have had in the last few months are mild compared to the ones that Ford has had for the last few YEARS. You need to look no further than the fact that DCX's marker share has held it's own while Ford's has fallen of the table. DCX has closed (or announced) two plant closures (Piellet Road in Windsor and Toledo - which was replaced) while Ford has closed (or will close) Ontario Truck, Edison, Lorain, Twin Cites, Wixom, Atlanta and St Louis while adding Dearborn Truck. Lastly, you quote the articles discussing the DCX's "giving away the farm program". Given that you are so well read, you must have caught the one last week in the Wall Street that called the Chrysler Group the most successful of the "big three". But they are still counted in the number. Days on hand are not just what are at the dealer. It includes plant inventory, in transit and dealers. Add to that, 90% of this is made up of 1500 Ram trucks (2500's and 3500's are still selling well) Dakota's, G Cherokee’s and Durango’s. Same segments where Ford has bloat.

Where DCX is drowning in inventory are in the same segments that have clasped for GM and Ford as well. Sure, Ford doesn't what to take lessons from a company that has managed to make money in North America for the last few years. In fact, DCX isn't sitting on any more inventory than Ford or GM. July's numbers are not out yet but June and May are as follows: May June DCX 77 74 Ford 79 73 GM 86 84 And please do not reply with that crap about "Ford and GM's higher inventory levels due to more rural dealers". I have asked all three companies and they have said that this is not true. Gutless Compass? Have you driven one? I doubt it. I have and it really isn't that bad. I will admit it different from what Jeep has built in the past but that may end up being a good thing. But you right, Ford should just keep coming out with more new underwhelming products that keep reducing it's market share. It's worked so well for the past 4 years!

I agree that the Oregon order is far from the beginning of the end. However, with two big Ford plants in town, is anyone surprised that Louisville continues to buy CV's?

Add to this that when one turbo goes, it generally spits it's parts into the other and then you get to buy TWO replacement turbo's. As if a turbo failure wasn't bad enough... The Aisin that will be used is already in some mediums. I have no direct experience but it sounds like it is a proven componet.

Not only has the 48RE held up just fine, but the 6.7 is getting an Asian 6 Speed. While the problems with the 6.0 are well documented, some of the early TorqShift's had issues as well. When it comes to manuals (which still account for a fairly large number of truck in this size) the New Venture NV 5600 and the G56 used by DCX have the ZF that Ford buy beat hands down. Bitching about Chryslers transmissions is an obsolete argument. We have several 48RE's coming up on 90,000 miles and not one failure yet. I wish the 6.4 well. However, the twin turbo’s and new emissions equipment is adding complexity to an already complex engine. Twin’s will only replicate what Cummins will accomplish by using the sliding ring in their VGT type turbo. This design has worked well on ISB’s sold in other applications as well as on the Cummins class 8 truck engines. Ford should bore the engine out more? The engine is built by International. However, the version of this engine that is marketed by IH (the VT365) has proven to be fairly reliable while the PSD has not. I will added that the twelve 6.0 PSD’s that we added to the fleet a little more than a year ago have proven to be fairly reliable. The only large issues have seemed to be with the turbos.

The new "International" big bores are not even their own engine. It was developed by M-A-N in Germany and the basic engine is in use today in Europe. Interestingly, M-A-N also installs the ISM Cummins making many ask why it is such a world beater if the Cummins sells. What is more, the engine is likely to be very costly as M-A-N and IH will have a difficult time achieving the volume numbers that have enabled Mercedes and Volvo to make inroads into the US.

PolarBear, I was not trying to say that there were no issues with Class 8 truck engines. However, even some of the more serious issues have been easier to address than what was found with the PSD. I would guess that this is due to the fact that while the 6.0 PSD was based on the fairly new VT365 (and the ratings were completely new), the class 8 engines were all proven designs that had additional hardware added. No new designs or rating to deal with. One issue that both have seemed to have in common is trouble with the vanes in the variable geometry turbo. Cummins has avoided this by developing a very simple and yet effective turbo that uses a sliding ring. Even if it malfunctions, the ring merely sticks in one place and you can limp home. When a vane lets loose, you can experience a great deal of engine damage and the loss of the turbo. In addition to IH/Ford, Detroit Diesel and Mack have had a number of issues with this. Detroit plans to buy turbo's from Cummins (Holset) starting in the fall of 2006 and Mack/Volvo are either buy turbo's from Cummins or have bought the rights to the design. To accomplish the same thing, Cat went to an expensive twin turbo setup. I understand that IH/Ford will be using this as well in once the 6.4 is introduced. The 6.4 will not be all new. It will be a vastly redesigned/upgraded 6.0. Let’s hope this drives the nail in the coffin of the "6.0 experience".

All that being said, Ford could do a better job of addressing customer concerns when they do happen, IMO. Every manufacturer has problems- it's how you address them that determines customer satisfaction. Just to set a few items straight: 1) The 6.0 was introduced in late '03 in response to new emissions regulations, not '02 as the article stated. 2) The "slightly unrefined" 7.3 is still being sold in various overseas markets, and is much prized for it's power, durability, and reliability. 3) The problems experienced in the PSD were endemic of "Big Rig" diesels in '04 and '04 as well. Most of the issues relate to a uniquely American problem- we have the most stringent diesel emissions regulations in the world, coupled with the lowest quality diesel fuel avalable in any first-world country. 4) According to JD powers, the odds of having issues with a dodge are better than a Chevy (1st place) or a Ford (2nd place). All that being said, Ford could do a better job of addressing customer concerns when they do happen, IMO. Every manufacturer has problems- it's how you address them that determines customer satisfaction. Being a fleet manager of a large US corporation and give the fact that I talk to other fleet managers I will add my prospective. 1. The 6.0 WAS introduced in late 2002 in the 2003 MY. The 7.3 was sold for a few months of the MY, but production stopped on this engine for domestic use on October 31 2002. Engines built before that date could be shipped to Ford but no longer produced. This was due to the "Consent Decree" agreement that IH and the other diesel manufactures signed with the EPA. Cummins and GM also updated their emissions packages at the same time. What's more, this same engine was out even earlier in an International chassis as the VT365. I have some in IH chassis and it has been fairly trouble free. 2. The 7.3 was a great engine but it needed some upgrades and updates. It was getting a bit long in the tooth. 3. The issues in class 8 trucks with post October 2002 engines (called "10/02 engines" in the industry) have been mild when compared to the 6.0 PSD. Even then, Cummins has had fewer issues than the competition. Few of the issues with the PSD related to fuel quality. What more, the Cummins and the Duramax are burning the same stuff with far fewer problems. Neither company has had to abandon pilot injection as Ford has had to do with the 6.0. 4. It's great if the JD Power numbers make you feel better. However, my experiences with the Cummins and the Dodge have been very good. This includes the truck as well as the engine. I would say that the third generation Ram (post 2003) has been every bit as good as the competition. We held off on buying any of the PSD's in 2003 and 04. For two years we only bought Dodges in this vehicle type. We have some 2005 PSD's. They have been better than what I hear from others with the earlier engines, but they have not been as good as the Cummins. The out of service time is enough alone to tip the scale in favor of the Dodge. Six months ago we bought our first Duramax’s. So far the engines have been fine but we have had a few minor issues with the trucks. This is not to say that the Dodges have been issue free but, they are certainly able to hold their own. I think that the problems of the 6.0 can be solved. I hope the market will be patient with Ford until they have all of the issues solved. The IH/Ford relationship has been a good one and I have generally been happy with the product that is a result of this arrangement. However, in retrospect, it is sad to see how ill prepared this engine was when it was released to the market.

Richard, I don't always agree with your assessments but I think you are dead on with this one. To your comment(s) I will add the following. Much of the problem with the market in North America today is due to Toyota's fixation with their 15% goal. They set 15% of the world wide market as their number on priority and the overall state of the market is suffering as a result. As the overall market weekend, all manufactures have been forced to react to maintain sales. The size of the reaction depends on the position you hold in the marketplace. Given the weaker positions of Ford and GM, their reactions have been the greatest. If you added in DCX, they still have better than half the market and any pricing actions, if take collectively, have an impact on market conditions. The pricing actions of the big three have result in a reduction in overall market pricing. Toyota was immune to the lowering of overall pricing for a time. However, eventually they were forced to react as well. This lowers their profitability along with everyone else. In some respects, the harder Toyota pushes, the more the market reacts and the lower the profit for every manufacturer. The only way this could have a happy ending for Toyota would be to push GM and/or Ford out of the business. This is not very likely for a number of reasons. As a result, they will be able to brag about selling more cars but in the end, have little else to show for it. On another note: Great Toyota service? As I have stated before I am a fleet manager for a large US company. We have vehicles from all of the big three and a few Toyota's as well. The Toyota's are good cars but they do have issues as well. When we do have an issue, Toyota dealers are the worst to deal with. I hear many complaints about having to convince the dealer that there could be an issue with a Toyota. I am convinced that there is generation of people who's only experience with an America cars is the one they had with dad's five year old hand me down Oldsmobile. Since their first new car was a Toyota-Honda-whatever, and it was some much better than that old Cutlass, they wonder why anyone buy anything else. Pop-culture reinforces this opinion and off they go to the Toyota dealer for another boring Camry. JAAF150