davdog
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Posts posted by davdog
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quit being such a smart ass, you don't even work for Ford
Isn't it hilarious that calling out for people to quit for unfair treatment is laughed at by UAW members?
Isn't that how things work in America? If they treat you unfairly you quit and get a job elsewhere where people do treat you fairly.
DAMN IT, IF THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE US DO THIS JOB FOR THEIR MENIAL PAY AND BENEFITS WE SHOULD ALL QUIT AND TAKE OUR SKILLS ELSEWHERE.
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Damn it!!!
If they do this I say we all just up and quit!!
They can hire their workers elsewhere!!!
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You took the words right out of my mouth, this guy will never be happy until we are making under minimum wage with absolutely no benefits but yet the unions around the world have a pass according to this guy. He's happy that little kids in India are making soccer balls for extreme cheap labor to get his family out of debt. That would make him happy. We should be like the rest of the world, be at their level. Just a pathetic excuse just to make davdog happy and a select other few. Worry about yourself and let the rest of us survive if we can. The UAW didn't put the big 3 in this position, oh wait, according to you it was extorted. Please save it before you start crying.
If you're willing to come in every day for 8 or 9 bucks an hour then so be it. If you're not then they're going to have to pay more to get you to take the job.
If you don't play by the same rules ford has to when they sell their cars then they will find their labor elsewhere and whose to blame them.
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It sure would be nice if that happens, but there are some people, like davdog, that hate unions so much, no concession will be enough.
I'll be happy the day the D3 can hire for whatever it takes to get someone to fill the job, you know like the rest of the companies in this country operate.
You folks cry about fair trade not free trade but I guess fair doesn't apply to the D3's ability to hire at market rates huh?
It's OK though, things are working themselves out.
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You're a TOOL!!! Nothin but a selfish, jealous piece of crap of a human being. You just showed your intelligence to equal pig drool. People are hurting and the UAW are not the ones that made this happen. Lavish??? Where do you get lavish from??? You just basically don't understand that the middleclass will take a hit from this as the UAW created the middleclass and is what got this country going and helps make this economy turn. This will be a domino effect through out the middleclass as more employers will now try to get their people at cheaper pay over time. So now then how is this economy going to turn around as labor gets cheaper and people can't buy things cause their checks are smaller. If you wanna live in a 3rd world country then move.
There is not jealousy here, just aggravation that my purchases of Ford products have gone to things like the Monday after Easter off, or years and years of gen/jsp and basically free Health care. h
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oh please, giving up the Monday after Easter, having to pay for medical insurance, having to ride out unemployment on, gasp, only unemployment.
I think most of the general public will be ticked to learn that some of the money they pay for their vehicle financed this crapola.
And no one gave up anything, it was taken.
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As a Ford stock holder that comprises 18% ( 3% of GM) in my portfolio, I ask that every UAW member vote No on any concessions in the current contract.
If a No vote forces the Big 3 into Chapter 7 or 11, it's not that big of a deal. USA will still buy 8 - 9 million units a year from different companies until the economy turns around in a few years.
Other companies will buy some of the remaining Big 3 plants and models and Ford along with GM and JEEP will emerge like a Phoenix. (Pontiac may use that name again
)These concessions are more about the UAW than the Big 3 companies. :shades:
They should vote no because the meanies at ford are trying to take away their monday after easter day off.
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I agree, but I also think it's easier said then done. I know of a guy who took a buy out from Ford, started his own company and less then two years later was working for someone else at less then half of what he was making at Ford. Sure, he probably got in way over his head with something he wasn't qualified to do. But it doesn't change the fact he left a good paying job with a pension and benefits to end up working for much, much less. And besides, leave and go do what? Yes, I'm sure there are companies hiring out there right now, but what kind of qualifications do you need. And are they going to hire a guy who is in his late 30's or 40's? And if you are in your late 30's or 40's, are you going to walk away from a paycheque into the unknown if you have a couple kids to feed and a mortgage to pay?
I suppose that is why a lot of Americans are sick of hearing the loud whine coming from the UAW. All you ever hear about is how ex workers have to work for half their previous pay and how new hires into the D3 can be brought in at half the previous pay rate. The uaw at ford basically came out and said that every production job in the plant is really worth $14 an hour. How would you feel finding out you've paid double for some product for that last 10 years.
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Great letter Spring, I am sure you are right and this reporter will not take you up on you're challenge.
Just to add something I was talking with someone on the line yesterday and he had the best Idea I have heard throughout all of this.
His suggestion was this; during the congressional hearings Ron Gettlefinger should have told Sen. Dodd ( a supposed friend of labor or any of the congressmen for that matter), you Mr. Dodd can help me negotiate with my workers the loss of a pension and health care after 30 years of service along with pay cuts for current workers. In turn I will help you negotiate with Congress their loss of pensions after a 3 year term, no government medical coverage as well as reducing you're pay. Only then will they realize what they are actually asking working Americans to give up.
Talking with this same person he also brought up the point that when this contract is up Ford UAW workers will not have gotten a pay raise in 7 years, how many other industries (manufacturing or not) would people still stay with a company 7 years while not getting any pay raise?
"Talking with this same person he also brought up the point that when this contract is up Ford UAW workers will not have gotten a pay raise in 7 years, how many other industries (manufacturing or not) would people still stay with a company 7 years while not getting any pay raise?"
only the ones in a job where they were overpaid. Makes you think huh?
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When you "dumb down" anything, or attempt to make it idiot-proof, you will end up in the position we are in.
IMO, automotive systems are designed to take the guesswork out of mechanics, and have thus removed the "art" in automobile repair. It's a matter of replacing parts, and nothing more. Take your car to a modern dealership, and about all they do is replace parts, until they replace the right one (and charging you for the ones you didn't need). The mechanic may or may not be able to see what caused the problem is something unrelated, and it often goes without resolution until the TSB comes out.
Other than the true gear-heads, many of the guys who work on cars can ably follow the process, but (seem to) not understand the underlying intricacies and principals of what makes (and keeps) a car run(-ning).
I'll go along with that first sentence, but only in certain instances. The GC who built my house is a hands-on guy. He did well with my house, and I spent far less than my next door neighbor, for a similar size home. He is a true artisan, and unfortunately a dying breed. I wish we respected the old ways of doing things more.
And 25 years ago I worked for data general repairing circuit boards. Heck are there even any TV repairmen these days? Swaptronics has been the name of the game for a long time.
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Written by an anti-labor hack.
He seems to sound more anti-uaw then anti-labor, but maybe that's just my perception.
The majority of the country is anti-uaw so why shouldn't his opinion be similar to most everyone elses?
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So you are on record as saying that the industry will sell only 10M vehicles this year?
Just making sure.
And who the hell is to say Ford's "analysts" are any less correct than the "analysts" you are quoting? Aren't the same "analysts" you are quoting the same people who said this would be a minor recessionary blip on the radar a year or two ago? You should know better than to trust "analysts".
That picture really really hurts.
Damn you.
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you keep posting in these threads to hear only what you wanna hear and that's it and I'm not gonna reply to this anymore than what I need to, I've said my piece about this issue in past threads and it's already been said that it's 10% labor per car but YOU want the answer YOU want. YOU want the trickle down effect and cheap labor but don't seem to take into account the technology and cost that go into these cars but just look at the labor. YOU seem to not look at the trade imbalances either do YOU? Just labor and the hourly pay. The hourly pay doesn't even equal with what the rate of inflation is and took years to even get to where we are but the market doesn't bear it as YOU claim. Maybe we should have Cambodian pay according to YOU. Yea, lets get labor cheaper across the board so we can get the bottom line bigger but the only problem with that is if people were paid lower labor then they wouldn't be able to afford much. Man, that will get the economy going wouldn't it. 70,000 jobs announced to be cut in one day and even at Microsoft too.
So when will it affect YOU? Oh, aren't YOU in the military??? When will that affect YOU if the pay of the military was cut?? I would be against that if that were the case but nooooooooooooooo, I have to take a pay cut to satisfy YOU.
So save YOUR rhetoric for someone else, this kind of discussion leads to arguments that won't end. YOU're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change YOU're mind. This is also directed towards LSfan as well. All YOU want is what YOU want to hear. I'm done with this one.
I could give a damn what ford labor makes but Ford deserves the opportunity to hire for whatever it takes to get someone to do the job. If it cost them $40 an hour to get someone in then so be it.
If they don't pay enough then people won't take the job. That's how it's supposed to work. If you don't want to be cheap labor then don't take the job as it's a free country and you have choices.
What world do you live in where pay scales are set up so people can afford to buy lots of stuff?
What an insane statement. Maybe we should double the pay of 7/11 clerks so they can buy lots of stuff too?
I was in the Air Force 20 years ago for 4 years so you must be thinking of someone else.
It amazes me to think that you actually believe what you are saying. Instead of tax incentives lets just double everyone's pay, that should do the trick right?
they'll be able to buy all kinds of stuff then.
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This isn't a reply to anyone in particular but a statement of my perception. This , and similar, threads are like arguing with my wife--she shouts out her point of view until she runs out of breath and I try to explain my reasoning until her rate of respiration returns to normal. When she can catch her breath again she goes on as if she's heard none of my counterpoints at all. It isn't about being reasonable, it's about stubbornly reiterating an opinion until the other party simply gives up the debate. You simply cannot reason with anyone whose mind is already made up and I will not continue to do so.
My issue is that the D3 cannot go out and simply hire people for what it takes to get them in the door and do the job. I know, I know, I'm rehashing.
I know someone will come back with how labor only makes up 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle but who cares.
The D3 have to sell their cars at market rate but they can't get their labor at market rate? WTF?
If it costs them $28 or $38 an hour to get people to fill those jobs, great that’s what it costs but that needs to be determined by the market much the same as the price they can move a car for is.
The only thing that soothes me on this issue is that it finally looks like the market is going to correct things.
What really ticked me off is in the last contract the UAW came right out and said the jobs are worth $14 an hour. At least the uaw at GM and Chrysler had the brains to say only certain jobs were worth $14 an hour because the idiots at ford said every production job is worth $14 an hour. How do you expect people to react to this?
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just keep listening to the media, blah, blah, blah
What is incorrect in what I posted?
Is ford hiring?
Have poeple been getting 100k buyouts?
Do people get moving expenses and do they get them even if they only have a longer drive to the new plant?
Did ford not close a New Jersey plant and have people from that plant remain in GEN for 4 years?
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Of course not. They keep sending new product to Mexico. Where is your outrage to that?
Of course I'm outraged, those could be American jobs if Ford were able to fill them at what it takes to fill them. Those could be some great $20 an hour jobs but we know that isn't going to happen. You've overpriced the product, what did you expect?
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No flip flop here. My point is that a lot of folks with strong opinions about the fate of the domestic automakers seem to be obsessed with hourly wages to the point of ignoring any other solution to competitiveness. Does it really matter how the domestics achieve competitive costs? A lot of posters assert that the D3 inevitably will fail because the UAW will not bargain in good faith. The agreement to pay new hires $14 an hour with a 401K for retirement was made to preserve jobs and make Ford more competitive. The union will negotiate for the best pay they can get and ultimately the consumer will determine what that will be. Had the economy not tanked the last contract would have helped going forward. So ,you see. the UAW can't win. They agree to wage cuts that would immediately begin to lower the average wage and the guy on the street still blames the domestics woes on the "greedy" UAW.
Ford isn't hiring so how is the $14 an hour position going to help now or any time in the foreseeable future? To fill a $14 an hour position they first need to pay a $100k buyout to get someone to vacate the position, but then that position will be filled by one of the many people in jsp and along with them comes the 30 to 45k moving expense, they even get money if it's just a longer drive to work.
How can you expect a consumer to buy a ford product knowing that some of that money is going to a guy in New Jersey whose plant closed 4 years ago and is still getting paid? The more that comes out the less consumer support you are going to see.
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I'm not sure what part of that makes you want to buy a Toyota. Wages are comparable. You seem like a smart guy so I'm pretty sure you know the difference between wages and overall compensation. Overall compensation needs to be addressed in order to be competitive with the transplants- which is pretty much what Gettelfinger said. I'm sure you also understand that it's going to be a bit of an uneven playing field since the transplant facilities haven't been here long enough to face the same sort of legacy obligations that the domestics have to deal with. There seems to be a widely held misconception that the UAW has refused to yield anything and that is simply not true. Negotiations are ongoing and we all hope for an agreement that makes the domestics competitive without being too painful for the UAW. I get the impression that you won't be satisfied with any agreement that doesn't reduce wages- even if total compensation can be reduced in other ways. It's been explained on these forums countless times that UAW employees don't "make" 73 dollars per hour. Yet the media continues to repeat this sort of disinformation in many auto related articles, sometimes with an explanation of the real wages by the fourth paragraph,mostly not. Folks who work for Ford , particularly hourly, are weary of defending ourselves from half-truths and disinformation. You're welcome to post almost anything you wish, but you shouldn't be surprised if people get angry about your decision to buy a Toyota based on your reaction to Mr. Gettelfinger's quote. Or was that what you intended.....?
The only real truth that matters is the uaw telling ford they can hire new employees at $14 an hour to do the exact same job that ford presently pays $28 an hour for. You folks are fiip flopping here, is the job worth $28 an hour or $14? No one ever seems to want to answer that one.
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So, basically you agree with the union that the production jobs at Ford are worth $14 an hour?
Isn't this like my paperboy telling me that "yes you're paying $30 a week for the paper to be delivered and I'm worth every cent, but if you do get a new paperboy you'll only have to pay $15 a week?"
What the heck is the UAW actually saying? Are they saying they've been overcharging for production labor?
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Okay, so the point was UAW workers are getting paid too much, right? That's why the union was supposed to make concessions, right?
So now the union is getting paid less than Toyota employees (as opposed to those sadsack temps that got dismissed in 2008 with a fist full of nothing for their troubles), and still concessions are expected?
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George Santayana: A fanatic is someone who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his aim.
No concessions necessary, simply allow the D3 to hire for whatever it takes to fill the job.
Fair enough?
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Ah. The other anti-union troll. Thought you'd never get here!
I'm not anti-union, I just don't see what's wrong with being able to pay whatever it takes to fill the seat. I mean they do have to charge what people are willing to pay for their cars don't they?
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I don't think the rest of America wants to set a pay scale for anybody, I think they just want the D3 to be able to hire for whatever it takes to get someone competent to do the job. Holding buildings hostage until you get a little more cream off the top is so twentieth century.
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Here's what I don't get.
We've all heard the lamentations of the greed-incarnate that is Walmart, but why is it that noone ever seems to say anything about the people who shop there?
Sure, many people say "I don't shop there", then go on to trash WalMart, but this ignores that without the other people shopping there, Walmart couldn't exist.
Is it not the greed of the people who shop there to blame for Walmart's success? (assuming that you accept a corollary of "greed" to be a desire to retain more of one's money, although I can make a case using the traditional definition, as well.)
Walmart is filling a role that a certain segment of the population demands, yet Walmart is exclusively blamed for this.
I've also read that Walmart abuses their employees. In cases of actual abuse, the resultant litigation bore that out, however by simply saying that Walmart abuses their employees, is to say that Walmart forces them to work against their will. Otherwise wouldn't they quit? If not, does that mean the Walmart is holding them hostage?
The Government forces me to give up the first four months of income (against my will) just to retain the other 8 months worth. Am I being abused by the Government, as well? If I don't pay, I go to jail. That's beginning to sound like hostage to me.
I'm not saying you have to like Walmart, but to put the blame on Walmart exclusively is flawed logic, imo.
GREAT POST. I'd like to add one thing, why don't we as a country try to solve the problem of US citizens being put, or putting themselves, in a postion where they are forced to take the Wal-Mart jobs because that is the only thing they are qualified for. If less people were to apply for Wal_Mart jobs wouldn't wal-mart be forced to offer more to attract workers? Isn't that the way its supposed to work in the US?
Why doesn't anyone ever ask why we have so many people in this country that are ill prepared for the work force?
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Which is why the company has the product to finally back their full turn around.
I thought they were turning to the european ford designs?
I love my new ranger but I fail to see what other product was added to the pipeline recently with the money from the mortgage.
I'm pretty sure they are just using that money to cover expenses since they are losing a lot of money.
Ford UAW workers approve contract changes
in Ford Motor Company Discussion Forum
Posted
Oh please, give me a break. All the years of shooting your mouths off has come back to bite you all in the butt huh?
I'll list my pay and benefits, but you wouldn't believe it so why bother.
I do know I don't get the day after easter and election day off, yeah sub pay and jsp are out too. While you're at it cola is out for me too. I could go on and on about the things the UAW USED to have that most americans didn't but since they're going away I won't.
This isn't any attack on the middle class. You lost things most other people weren't getting but they were paying for them.
People keep saying that past uaw members fought to get these things, well didn't you ever think the other side was some day going to fight to get them back?
It's about time.