morgande

They you go again. Typing with your fingers before engaging your brain. Tisk tisk...

I don't hate Lincoln. And I don't hate Ford. I just wish they would give Lincoln 1/2 the attention they give the F-Series. or the Mustang.

It was the BMW 5 series. (at least as I remember it). But its looks dead-on to a E-class. They basically made no attempts to hide who they were going after. Some laugh at them. Some applaud the effort. I give them credit for the car, but flag them for its execution. They took the cheap road with the dealer network, and it killed the sales of an otherwise decent entry into the market.

Same with both the Buicks. And all Acuras (which I hate). Anything that isn't RWD isn't going to get much attention from me. Is that my bias, of course it is! But bias aside, I just don't think the MKS is a good-enough entry to that market. It was better off when it was soft-spring suspension. When it was trying to be more of a luxury car and less of a sports sedan. The 6vereses8 advertisement has and underlying tone of 'hey check out this new sports sedan from Lincoln. Its faster than a Mazerati". I think it borders of false advertising, even though its technically not an ad. For 2009 they tightened it up (suspension wise), and it rides more aggressively (ala sporty). But its actually driving characteristics don't support the stiffer ride. If its going to ride that stiff, it might as well handle one. It was better off riding like a traditional large American Luxury Sedan. Ford can't figure out what they want Lincoln to be when it grows up. Mabye a little bit like Lexus, but with some BMW thrown in, but still American Luxury and affordable price. Oh, and we don't have any money for anything dedicated, so lets work with what we got. This is good. For now. At least Hyundai built the car for the market. Not took what they had, and tried to make up for its short comings by throwing as many gadgets as they could at it. How can it be that Hyundai has enough foresight to give their flagship product its own dedicated platform (that is built specifically for a specific market). But Ford gives Lincoln a shared platform, then upstages it with the Taurus. Hangs 2-3 more vehicles off the same plate. But expects luxury buyers to take them seriously?

I will say this though, The Genesis isn't perfect. But Hyundai build a car that is a serious contender. Its fault is not with the car, but the brand. And brand perception matters in Luxury Market. Had Lincoln built a Genesis, it would have done far better in the market than Hyundai. Just because Lincoln at least has the prestige associated with the name. Hyundai is not a luxury brand. But the car is nice, and it competes well. It holds it own. IMO, the MKS is to the luxury market what the Honda Rideline is to the Truck Market.

I won't dignify this with a response.

Both Buick models have outsold the MKS. http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?...XBlPTM=&t=1

I don't need to have driven an MKS or a Maserati to know that the MKS can't compete with a Maserati.

First of all, I didn't get mad. however I did not appreciate someone who arrogantly and ignorantly made assumption about what I have and/or have not driven.

Thats not what the article says.

He also said: http://wardsauto.com/ar/ford_awd_in-house/ This is from the article YOU posted. But apparently shame on me for assuming the above quote was correct. Lessened learned: Ford engineers don't always know what their talking about, but RickardJensen is always right!

Ha! Who said anything about drawing a conclusion of the MKS from the MKT? Did I say I had done that? Please stop putting words in my mouth, or trying to make points where there are none.

MKS no. MKT yes. Dude, your the one who was making an argument that I should speak from personnel experience.

MKS no. MKT yes. Dude, your the one who was making an argument that I should speak from personnel experience.

Why don't you go back to my quotes and READ them. You'll find that not all are harsh. I took what was in the article. If the article had negative things to say (like Edmunds) then that's what I posted. If it had some positive things (like Autoblog, motor tend, car and driver, etc) then I posted it as well. Not everything I quoted 'bashed' the MKS. But the general conclusion was the same, regardless of the article. One guy in one article. Well said Guy happens to work for Ford. Why would I not take his word for it?

Dude, you don't know what I drive, or what I've driven. So how can you have the gnads to tell me about speaking from my own personal experience? Pathetic! Price tag? This has nothing to do with price. Going back to the comparison, you know what often comes out my mouth as a viable alternative? The Genesis. Nothing to do with price. Just comparing driving experiences to driving experiences. This thread was about benchmarking the MKS against the Lexus and the Audi. Nowhere in that article did it mention anything about price points. But then again, your a BON memeber. But But But.....

And neither do I. My original claim was that Fords AWD system is similar to the Haldex. Thats what a representative from Ford said. It came from HIS mouth, not mine. Both are 'slip and grip' systems. They might go about it in different ways, but they both are similar styled AWD systems. I am not the only person who holds the belief that they are similar. So take your evangelism off this board and go spread your gospel elsewhere since you claim they are so different. And you CAN START WITH FORD, and EVEN THEY SAY THEY ARE SIMILAR!!!! A rigged test is a rigged test. I don't see why you won't just admit it and roll on. Behind what? What did they beat? A Jag and a Maserati? For one, the Maserati cost what? Well over $100k. I'd hardly call that MIDPRICED! Same goes for the Jag. And what is 'midpriced'. Who determines just what midprice should cost? Cost had nothing to do with this. Sales figures had nothing to do with this. They mentioned that crap, just like most people on BON does. Soon as you make a point, counter it with a "and how is [insert here] selling?". Also, why didn't he include some other midpriced luxury cars? Like Audi? Or Lexus? Cadillac? Infinity? I'm sure that 3rd place isn't so third when you taking into consideration the entire luxury market. THAT is why its NONSENSE! You know what, your exactly right. I did make the claim that the MKS is non competitive. Per my own standards. Problem is, I'm not the only person to have came to that conclusion. There are plenty of Reviews that tell you exactly what the MKS is not. That being said, I can reasonably conclude that the MKS is not competitive with respect to how it drives to other vehicles. Is it an opinion. Yes. Can it be debated? Sure. Nothing wrong with sharing an opinion is it? Or is it just because you don't agree that there's a problem?

Its only unacceptable when you try to use this test as proof positive that the MKS is in the same league as the cars that were also features in the test. The fact that the test was rigged and was more advertisement than editorial doesn't seem to bother you. For me, when the subject comes up and people are comparing vehicles, I want to be able to throw out the MKS as a viable option. But I can't realistically do that, because the MKS isn't really a competitor to those cars. But around here, Fords AWD system is the best thing since sliced butter! Its going to be a central piece of how Lincoln claws it way back into relevance. Only problem is, I don't think its working very well. The MKS has earned high marks and critical acclaim. And things like this 6verses8 site only prove my point. I guess just like the moon landing, if you can make it...fake it! LOL

Full time AWD without such a FWD bias is something I think would help the MKS. Apparently that's not possible on Fords system. Ok, not much I can do with that. As they say, it is what it is. I have no problem admiting that what I though was possible is in fact, not possible. But I still believe it is that kind of a suspension system that will be needed if Ford wants to produce something that is going to compete. Really compete with what else is out there. And, looking at how many time the oldWizzard has corrected(schooled) you on various aspects of said AWD system, it would appear you don't know as much as you think you do. Please, rigged test. You know it, as do I. And so does everyone else. http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/05/lincoln...8-com-showdown/ Now Mr Jenson. Please revert back to your elementary school days, when you learned about the scientific method. A rigged test proves what? Just ask Microsoft about its sponsored test to show just how more secure Windows was than Open Source. Rigged test don't show @^#&. LOL. And I agree. I NEVER said anything about sales. Not initially. You can blame one of your fellow BON members (rmc523 and akirby) for bring that into the argument. All I did was dis-credit their nonsense.

Yes, but you are not taking into consideration the fact that the MKS is having a much easier time producing torque to negotiate not only the turns, but also the straits in all that thin air. Given the fact that there are strait aways leading up to and preceding the majority of the major turns up that mountain, one could certainly see how the MKS was able to fair well, in spite of the fact its speed negotiating such turns was probably hindered by its tendency to understeer. Also, I did not call it Farm Equipment.

The Audi? The Audi makes less power and torque than the MKS. Period. So explain to me exactly what that proves? If an engine makes more power, it SHOULD win. Shouldn't it? I mean, its not like 350lb-ft of torque off-idle coming off a V6 with twin turbos is somehow less than the 325lb-ft at 3500 RPM coming off that Audi V8. Or am I wrong here?

I'm trolling? How do you figure? Anyone who comes on this board who is a critic enough to call something out where they see it is a troll? If by that, them I guess I am. YTD sales of 5 Series and E Class: BMW 5 Series: 29,690 Mercedes Benz E Class: 26,740 Lincoln MKS: 12,352 Month of September: BMW 5 Series: 2,861 Mercedes Benz E Class: 3,812 Lincoln MKS: 1,316 http://media.ford.com/images/10031/September09sales.pdf http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2009/10/01/479933.html http://www.daimler.com/Projects/c2c/channe...ases91002_e.pdf Please, your making this far too easy for me. LOL

Quick question for ya? Why not a drag strip? Why a curvy mountain road up hill? Where the air is thin? You know how important oxygen is in an engine. Turbo engine will have a real advantage going up a mountain with all that thin air. If it was just about power, why not a drag strip? Why did the driver comment on each of the vehicles handling characteristics except the MKS? Why was that part missing? No mention of handling. But it's a curvy mountain road and that fact is brought to the viewers attention several times. Please, the evidence is more than abundant.

Please! Don't be such a tool. That entire site is a Ford advertisement. Every single car there was rented, as no manufacture would dare submit there product for a rigged test designed to favor a specific product over another. 3rd in sales? Compared to what? Please don't say the other vehicles in that test. Not a single car in that test lost a single point of market to the MKS. Not even a percentage of a point. And to somehow compare the MKS to the Jag and the Italian in sales? Please, you must be smoking the good stuff! That is laughable!!!

Or better yet, how about for another $10k+ less, I shoot for a Kia Amanti. I'm sure if Kia sponsored a test comparing it to a Phantom going down Lombard street in San Francisco with the transmission in Neutral, the Kia would probably give the Phantom a run for its money! I am not dumping on any select Ford products. An I'm not dumping on Ford. But I'm going to call Ford on its stuff for producing a vehicle that can't compete, then rigging test to make it seem like it can. Or a forum member who is afraid to call a spade...a spade. I wish Ford put as much into the MKS as they do the F-Series. Bet the reviews would be different. Heck, I remember back when nobody on this forum even wanted to admit the MKS was the Lincoln Flagship!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now everyone is content to call it 'close enough'. Thats a BOLD MOVE indeed!