bzcat
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Posts posted by bzcat
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http://www.chinacartimes.com/2010/06/28/ford-maverickescape-to-be-made-in-china/
Im just wondering if they will wait for the next or just build the current Asian Escape.
They are shipping the Escape tooling from Taiwan over to Jiangling so yes... the current Escape. This could imply that Ford Taiwan will get the next Escape... or that Ford is planning to end production in Taiwan altogether. Depends on how you read the tea leaves...
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The Chinese would never go for a Taiwan built car. The Philippines plant looks like its going to close and Thailand will be busy with the Focus, Fiesta, 2 and 3. Also, a Taiwanese built Escape would most likely be too expensive in India so builing it there as all Ford vehicles are is the logical choice.
Well, your first point is not true... Taiwanese cars have been allowed in China.
Ford Taiwan exported completely build up Mondeo and Escape to China for 2 years before Ford started building the Mondeo (previous gen) in China from CKD kits provided by Ford Taiwan. Ford was able to take advantage of a temporary Chinese program that allowed Taiwanese cars to enter China as a "domestic" car a few years back. China was hoping to influence election outcome in Taiwan by allowing certain Taiwanese goods to be imported into China as "domestically produced" products - hence at no tariffs. Plenty of Taiwan made cars ended up in China during that period.
Taiwanese car companies and parts suppliers are heavily involved in China JVs:
- Soueast Mitsubishi is controlled by CMC, which owns the rights to distribute Mitsubishi in Taiwan and China. CMC's OEM designs (Freeda and Zinger SUVs, Veryca mini truck and bread vans) are sold as Mitsubishi in many markets, including China. Mitsubishi also turned over the IP rights to the "Delica" bread van names to CMC outside Japan. The Soueast Lioncel sedan (based on previous gen Mitsubishi Lancer) was designed by CMC in Taiwan.
- Dongfeng Nissan was originally a JV between Yulon and Dongfeng. Yulon being Nissan and GM's partner in Taiwan (Yulon still owns more shares in Dongfeng Nissan than Nissan itself). Yulon had acquired the tooling from Nissan USA to build the first gen Altima in the JV (to be sold under its own brand), but had to bring in Nissan in on the JV because the Chinese Govt wanted a "global" brand company.
- Ford China operations is basically being run entirely by mid-level ex-pat Ford Taiwan executives. And as mentioned, Ford Taiwan exported a large number of previous generation Mondeo and Escape to China.
Also, Taiwan and China is currently negotiating a wide-ranging free trade agreement that will bring back the duty free trade on most industrial goods, including cars.
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To further my point...
April sold 30,530 World Escapes, Mariners, and Kugas in the US, Canada, and Euro19. One plant would need to need to produce around 366,000 to meet the demand of those nations. With a market recovery, new models released, and a Lincoln replacing Mariner...I would a 30% increase would be in store. That would put that plant at 474,000 and thats without Argentina, Columbia, Central America, the West Indies, Mexico, Africa, Middle east, Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea, and 22 others nations of the Euro19 which would probably send that plant at a minimum of 525,000!
There is no way one plant can do that...thats perhaps too much for 2 plants. This needs to be the plan for the C1 Ford crossovers (ill leave Lincoln production out):
North America- One plant with another on standby and for Middle east
Argentina-For Latin America
Russia-For Euro51
India-For India and Africa
China-For China
Taiwan- for Southeast Asia and Australia.
Ford is converting 2 plants in North America to handle C2 family of cars (Wayne and Louisville). While Wayne is identified as primarily Focus and Louisville is primarily Escape, I think at the end of the day, you will see the built mix vary between the 2 plants based on demand. Also, I think your estimate for Kuga sales is a bit too optimistic. The new C-Max with conventional swing out doors will probably take some Kuga sales (it looks more SUV-ish than the current C-Max).
The big unknown here is the Asian version of Escape (currently sold in Taiwan, Australia, Japan, New Zealand, ASEAN, Russia and former Soviet States in Central Asia). The car is made in Taiwan and exported to these markets with a secondary CKD line in The Philippines for ASEAN countries only. Sales of this model have fallen off the cliff and Ford's long term commitment to maintaining full assembly capability (as opposed to CKD) in Taiwan is an open question. Assuming that a new Kuga/Escape model revitalizes sales of Escape in these markets, Ford will need a factory outside the US to meet demand. Otherwise, I think the 1 plant (with 1 overflow) in the US is enough.
And of course, there will be some opportunity to introduce the new Escape/Kuga to new markets that were previously off-limits due to incompatibility to local products (i.e. the Mazda based original product did not mash well with Ford offerings in South America/India/Africa). I think at the end of the day, this is probably what we will end up with:
1. Louisville - primary plant for Escape/Kuga for NAFTA, Central America, EU, Russia
2. Wayne - overflow for NAFTA
3. Taiwan - primary plant for Escape for Taiwan, Australia, China, and India
4. Either Philippines or Thailand - CKD from Taiwan for ASENA countries only
5. Brazil - primarily plant for South America
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Isn't the next Gen Escape a done deal for Louisville (LAP)? I can't imagine that Ford has a business plan that expects the C-Max (supposedly will drop the Grand moniker over here) to fill that plant. Also, haven't I also read that Louisville might very well be the source of worldwide production for the Escape/Kuga, meaning exports back to Europe?
Yes, Escape to Louisville is a done deal. And {Grand} C-Max for the US market will be imported fully assembled from Portugal. The boat will bring the C-Max here and return to Europe with Kuga.
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Funny. Honda has no problems selling the Civic in South America that is produced in Indiana.
That's because they don't... South American market Civics are made in Brasil.
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But there will also be other C sized products on the market too
Ford will have Wayne and Louisville assigned to the new C-platform cars. Wayne will primarily be Focus and Louisville will primarily be Escape.
But I think the Escape/Kuga line can pitch in and make Focus as well if need be since they will be very similar. Isn't that the point of using the same platforms and making the lines "flexible"?
Honda assembles Civic in 2 lines (Ontario and Ohio) to meet demand in North America.
Toyota used to have 2 plants for Corolla/Matrix before NUMMI was shut down. And instead, it is increasing the % of imported Corolla from Japan.
If Ford is doing this right, Focus volume will grow and 2-plant strategy will probably pay off.
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Midsize cars
Accord (plus Crosstour) - 30,077
Camry - 29,295
Accord (sedan only) - 27,835
Fusion - 22,381
Altima - 21,950
Malibu - 21,722
Sonata - 21,195
....
Milan - 2,682
I assume Accord and Altima also include coupe... so if we are just comparing apples to apples here, Fusion is a lot closer to Accord. And I'm almost confident that Fusion+Milan ( 25,063) > Accord sedan... or at the very least, a photo finish.
And Malibu and Sonata will surely exceed Altima sedan only number.
No Mitsubishi Galant? Do they still sell cars to retail customers?
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Why would you not just continue the MKS as the Taurus sibling and have the new RWD sedan be a Continental?
Because the MKS market segment (i.e. BMW 5 series etc) will demand more driver oriented chassis, which a RWD platform would provide. In the long (maybe very long?) run, the volume Lincoln models (MKZ and MKS) should be RWD to better compete globally.
The flagship vehicle could be FWD for livery customers (e.g. upcoming Audi A8 and Cadillac XTS will both come with standard FWD in the US) and AWD optional for private buyers. You could make it RWD too but I suspect that in the US market, it won't matter too much.
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MB is bringing the B-Class here...
Which is a C-segment car. The B-segment Mercedes is the A-Class.
In the short term, this is what Lincoln should offer:
C-segment
MKC (Focus based sedan)
MKG (Escape based SUV)
C/D-segment
MKZ (Fusion based sedan)
MKX (Edge based SUV)
D-segment
MKS (Taurus based sedan)
MKT (Flex/Explore based SUV)
Large SUV
Navigator
Navigator L
In the long term, Lincoln needs some RWD cars
C-semgnet
MKC/MKG can stay FWD C platform (with AWD optional obviously) - 2.0T should be the standard engine across the board.
C/D-segment
MKZ --> replace with something RWD based on the next Mustang platform. Target (size/price/performance) should be Infiniti G. 2.0T base engine, maybe 2.5T, and 3.5T.
MKR --> 2 door coupe/4 door fastback version of MKZ... ("Lincoln Mustang" if you will... aimed directly at G37/335i/S5 etc)
MKX can stay FWD C/D platform (Edge)
D-segment
MKS --> replace with LWB version of the Mustang platform (possibily shared chassis with Ford Falcon). Target should be Infiniti M. 3.5T in various boost level from 300 hp to 400 hp.
MKT can stay FWD (Taurus/Flex/Explorer)
"Flagship"
Continental --> takes over from MKS as the "twin" to Taurus (assuming it stays FWD on enlarged EUCD platform). This will be Lincoln's answer to Cadillac XTS and will be a large limo. Having a name for the "flagship" car also creates some symmetry to the Navigator name as it has been serving as Lincoln's flagship for sometime now.
Continental L --> if there is a demand for such a beast...
Navigator --> new Navigator should be slightly smaller (as would the Expedition now that Explorer is more of a crossover). Based engine should be 3.5T. V8 5.0 optional.
Navigator L --> splits the difference between current Navigator and Navigator L
And needless to say specifically but hybrid option should be available throughout the range.
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When will Lincoln have a performance line similar to Cadillac and its "V" series? Does anyone "inside" have any clues??
I think that's the least of Lincoln's problem now. Ford needs to figure out how to get Lincoln some RWD cars first before contemplating more horsepower.
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Nice, is that the Sport? Only asking because I thought they had painted grills. Have fun and good luck with it.
Painted grill is an option.
Good color on the sport
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What's gone from the American market since 1960:
Nash/Rambler
Studebaker
DeSoto
Edsel
Oldsmobile
Pontiac
Plymouth
Mercury, soon
]
Plus an entire continent worth of crappy minor European makes: Fiat/Lancia/Alfa/Peugeot/Citroen/MG etc
And some new ones that came and gone since the 60s: AMC, AMC Renault, Eagle, Opel, Isuzu, Saturn, Geo, Daewoo, Daihatsu, Sterling (Rover), Merkur etc.
What's new in the American market since 1960:
Datsun/Nissan
Infiniti
Honda
Acura
Lexus
Subaru
Suzuki
BMW
Saab (introduced to America in 1960)
Hyundai
Kia
Audi
Mini
Mitsubishi
Scion
Smart
Major increase in dealers since 1960:
Toyota
Land Rover
Not sure about this... but I think Volvo was here before 1960? Certainly expanded significantly since that time
P.S. Somehow, I've got the suspicion I've forgotten a make or two up there.
Yeah... :shades:
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Check the sales figures.
You try and turn a profit on something with volume that low stateside--and no international distribution.
But Ford was going to release this car as a Mercury Tracer... which probably would have sold in even lower numbers (we are all just guessing right?)
The point of using Focus chassis is so that a low volume MKC is possible. Ford is counting on selling over 1 million units a year on this platform so I don't see how an unique tophat is really going to tip the scale on profitability of MKC. At the end of the day, a MKC sales is no different to Ford than say... a Grand C-Max sales, another relatively low volume variant.
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Seriously, some of you are really over thinking this. Ford has done a Focus based Premium C-car before and it will probably do a pretty decent job again.
And this segment will get really busy in a hurry in the next couple of years:
Mercedes also confirmed 4 door B-class spinoff (likely called BLS) will be in the US...
And of course the 4 door Audi A3...
And likely return of some type of C-segment Saab
And the new Volvo S40
Not to mention BMW is likely to stick with the 1 series
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I agree...otherwise, it's the Lincoln Cimarron. Although it would be interesting to see a really plush small car.
Cimarron was a miserable rebadge car based on a craptacular J-body. I think the Tracer was/is going to be far from the Cimarron. For one thing, the Focus is shaping up to be an excellent car all around.
The Tracer (and hence whatever the MKC will likely be) is not going to be some half-baked car with chrome waterfall grill. If you truly believe that, then Ford has a bigger problem with the Focus. Think of it as a replacement for Volvo S40 if you must... it's what Ford would have spent the money/creative energy to create if Volvo was still a Ford problem.
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I guess the future 7 Lincoln car are MKZ, MKS, MKX, MKT, Larina, Lilan and C car
Lol... [L]ilan and [L]ariner...
MKC (Tracer)
MKG (Mariner)
MKZ
MKX
MKS
MKT
Navigator
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Why did you choose A3 and C30? To stack the deck for your argument?
C-segment Lincoln is probably more of a Volvo S40/Acura CSX/Buick whatever competitor. Those cars are pretty important to those respective brands. S40 is a volume seller for Volvo, ditto CSX for Acura Canada (which will probably be in the US for next generation). And Buick has big plans for its 4 door Astra (whatever it will be called in the US...).
Besides, this segment will grow in importance in the future so it is important for Lincoln to have something in the market. Lexus CH is also coming next year not to mention Audi will have a 4 door sedan version of the next A3 designed specifically with US and Chinese market in mind.
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Chrysler will not be tooling up a facility. Fiat will have a facility in Mexico that will supply cars for Fiat to sell in Mexico and Central and South America. It will also supply cars to Chrysler.
:reading:
Fiat doesn't have a facility in Mexico. Fiat 500 is going to start production this year in Toluca Mexico where Chrysler currently makes the PT Cruiser.
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I have a feeling that the Escape and friends are going to be I4 only when they go over the Kuga/C2 platform...don't think they can fit a V6 in it.
IIRC The new Escape and Kuga go into Production at LAP in 2012 or so.
I don't think it is a matter of whether it can fit a V6 or not... it just simply won't be needed when 2.0 Ecoboost will have more power and better MPG. When Ford upgraded the base engine on the Escape to 2.5 I4 (as opposed to previous 2.0 and 2.3 I4), V6 sales pretty much evaporated.
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With PAG out of the picture, I would like to see Ford add a more upscale 4 door "coupe" body style (e.g. Passat CC) to the Mondeo, which could make a pretty nice Mercury Milan (assuming Mondeo = Fusion).
The current hatchback version of the Mondeo has already a pretty fast roof line that is almost coupe like but 5 door doesn't play in the US...
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oh, and the Ka IS coming....
The current one or the next gen with 1.0 Ecoboost? I don't see the current one making it over here. The current Fiat 500 based Ka is only made in Poland (in a Fiat factory where Ford Ka output is capped) and I don't think it will make it cost effective to Federalize the car. In order for something like this to be sold in the US, it has to be part of the Western Hemisphere program (like the Fiesta) where the car is made here, in large volume in a Ford factory, and sold in many markets. The current Brazil Ka is still based on the old platform (which itself was from the MK3 Fiesta). Certainly, Ford can probably kick start a new global Ka replacement program with US and South America and possibily India and China included... but that will probably take a few more years.
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BTW the 40 MPG is only if you get the "Super Fuel Economy" package. Regular automatic Fiestas get 29/38, a 1 mpg difference from the manual.
No, you missed the news 2 days ago with the official EPA numbers.
Regular Fiesta with auto get 40 MPG.
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=32663
Ford has not submitted SFE package for EPA testing yet. They wanted to see if the regular version will hit 40 MPG (which it did).
As to the need for 6 speed manual... I think it's not necessary. EPA testing requirements is kind of weird... manuals are not allowed to use top gear in the city cycle portion of the test (but autos are allowed). Basically, someone who knows how to drive the manual Fiesta will likely get the same if not better mileage as the auto. The final gear ratio is about the same.
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Release the zombies!
I LOL'ed at that one.
Also, they shot the commercial at my work... I recognized the fake street scene. Same set they used to shoot House, Bones, and How I Met Your Mother.
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Aside from the fact that you personally like Mercury - how can splitting the same total sales between 2 vehicles be a good business decision?
There is your faulty logic right here...
It's not splitting sales into 2 vehicles. Fusion + Milan sales > Fusion.
There is plenty of evidence that eliminating Milan won't translate into more Fusion sales (e.g. Milan customers are overwhelmingly female, higher income level than Ford buyers, previous example of Oldsmobile/Plymouth/Mercury Canada mercy killing that didn't result in more Buick/Dodge/Ford Canada sales). So killing Mercury now will only result in one thing - less profits for the surviving Ford models.
Granted, that may not be the case for Taurus + Sable... but the remaining Mercury models (Milan and Mariner) are net pluses in sales over their Ford siblings. Getting rid of Milan and Mariner will put a dent in Ford's production plan and profitability on Fusion and Escape. I think that will be the case with Tracer too... it won't have much overlap with Focus buyers.
New York City Prepares to Say "Goodbye" to Crown Vic Taxis as Hybrids Take Over
in Ford Motor Company Discussion Forum
Posted
The US-spec Transit Connect is already a stretch so I think it may be at its structure limit in terms of length. But maybe not...
But since the car is imported, I doubt Ford will find enough money to basically re-design a 7 years old commercial van just for the 1,000 or so sales to NYC taxi fleet per year. The next generation should be designed with US applications in mind and will surely offer even longer wheel base and hybrid options.