Icspres
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Posts posted by Icspres
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9 minutes ago, akirby said:
You’re overthinking it. Give it a month and see if you get used to it. If not there are 2 or 3 ways to disable it other than just turning it off.
5% to an automaker is HUGE.
I actually stopped thinking about it at all once my wife decided this was the car, that's why I stopped participating but piqued my interest again tonight for whatever reason.
I do think that that it's under thinking to keep reverting to the static analysis of how huge the 5% is to the automaker. We won't know for a decade whether the cost to the consumer far eclipses that 5%. Common sense tells me it will. But again I freely admit I could be wrong.
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5 minutes ago, YT90SC said:
Your start/stop scenario for engine damage is based on COLD engine and port fuel or carb. The engine DOES not start/stop cold for this reason. There is no enrichment to restart like old port fuel or carb. There is no more wear to the engine than if it idled the entire time.
Fair enough. I freely admit my knowledge of mechanics is ancient and I figured I'd get an answer to this effect.
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1 hour ago, msm859 said:
In 2015 Americans consumed over 140 billion gallons of gasoline. 5% is Huge. Reset your trip odometer and mileage gauge and watch you average mpg on a highway for about 5 miles and then get into town and literally watch the mileage go down as you sit at a stop - yes it makes a difference.
I get it, in a static analysis . But if the over-engineering of the requisite components increases the vehicle cost and the start stop affects overall customer satisfaction and driveability or even reliability over an extended period of time, causing people to throw their cars away sooner, in a dynamic analysis it's a net negative on the environment.
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35 minutes ago, 92merc said:
The manufacturers have this already factored in. They are building the parts more durable to handle the increased usage. Mainly the starter. But new transmissions are being designed with start/stop in mind to keep the hydraulics ready to go. I'm sure a lot more than just those.
A few years ago, most makers switched to electric power steering. That gave 5%. There have been a few other things done as well. So it all starts to add up.
Rhetorical, but have vehicle prices increased by 5% as a result of the beefed up transmission, starter, etc? And still I assume the start stop will get rougher with age, just common sense. I grew up a long time ago, but I grew up believing the most damage a motor takes is at startup when you get a modicum of ring wash from unburned gas. I get this is ancient history, but still if as the engine gets older, 100k-150k miles and the motor takes a bit more of a bump to start firing again at a stop light, a little more unburned gas, build up on the valves, clogging of injector? Makes me think every car out there, they all have start stop, are going to start needing valve jobs or new injectors or some other weird, not recently heard of major service we're not used to. You see this on some cars, unexpected big service items like the waste gates on last gen bimmers, major expense at 60-80k miles that nobody who bought them new ever saw coming. It again just seems to me it's all a net negative.
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37 minutes ago, akirby said:
Blame the epa. If it can be turned off permanently it can’t be used during epa mpg tests. Therefore Ford can’t turn it off. You can use Forscan to turn it off or there are aftermarket devices.
But why not give it a couple of weeks? I got used to it on my f150 and now I don’t even notice it. Sounds like you decided you don’t like it without giving it a chance.
You know what bugs me about this, I assumed when I was first looking into this when I started this thread that the net gain from something this intrusive would have to be in the 10-15% range, right? I mean, to be worth the trouble? Nope, 5%. The EPA estimated overall mileage gain for vehicles with stop start is 5%...at time of purchase. Plain common sense tells me that it's a net loss, no way all the tech involved and whatever modest extra wear and tear, the fact that the start/stop function is bound to be rougher over time isn't going to lead to vehicles being thrown away 5% sooner. My wife is still on track to take delivery of her Aviator though. Whatever.
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1 hour ago, Wheeling said:
Does Start/Stop also works in the GT? It seems counter productive in the GT, when stops, the engine can recharge the battery. So why shut it off?
According to my dealer the behavior in the GT is identical to the Black Label that I'm purchasing.
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Off topic, but my kids are really excited about heated and coold second row controlled by their very own touch screen. Kinda cool.
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So my wife chose the Aviator.
The start stop never activated during our test drive. Turns out if it's too hot, it won't engage because the compressor has to stay on. If it's too cold it won't engage because the engine needs to stay warm. I don't think it's going to bother her at all.
So there you have it.
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5 minutes ago, Flying68 said:
I would venture to say that most sales associates really don't know any more than we do. Frankly we probably know more because we research it to death. You can always go onto owner.lincoln.com and download the owners manuals for both the regular and PHEV versions of the Aviator and see what it says.
10 minutes ago, Flying68 said:I am not sure anyone knows exactly what the behavior of the Aviator GT will be as no one has one and press usually don't comment about those kinds of things. I am sure a lot will depend on what drive mode you select. I would guess Excite would always leave the engine running, Normal would operate off the battery more in city driving, Preserve EV would be regular start/stop (no EV usage), Pure EV would be battery only until it can't keep up. Eco would probably delay normal ICE operation but engage after you are moving.
Agree the sales associate, though seemingly a Sr Assoc, probably isn't terribly technical and no idea how motivated she is regardless if they're going to sell every Aviator they get, which I'm sure they will. Maybe I'll get lucky and they'll have a hybrid there as well.
I have confirmed though that the Aviator does have the excite setting and it does disable start-stop. Depending on how many motions are involved, roughly similar to the GLS button push hopefully.
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1 minute ago, msm859 said:
I doubt the ICE motor would start every time you simply take your foot off the brake. If you are in stop and go traffic moving slowly I would not expect the ICE to ever go on - unless you were perhaps in "Excite" mode. In EV mode it should not start at all unless perhaps if you floor it. (Assuming you have a charged battery). These are some real world testing I am waiting for. The Range Rover Sport PHEV did have some issues with the ICE running when it should not have. I am hoping Ford did a better job.
Freely admit the sales associate could have been wrong, but with an $80k sale on the line, she's insistent that the behavior of the GT start-stop is identical to the rest of the lineup.
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1 minute ago, akirby said:
Well hybrids already do start/stop and the only difference with the GT is how long it waits to start the engine depending on the mode.
Copy that. You'd think that in stop and go traffic though, hybrids would be more on battery power and not starting every time you take your foot off the brake, but apparently the Aviator GT does.
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1 minute ago, msm859 said:
Actually your backup plan should be the Aviator GT. I suspect that will have no start/stop issues. Funny different perspectives - my only concern is that the GT won't reduce my carbon footprint enough over the standard model - so will be waiting for real world reviews on that issue. This start/stop thing reminds of the "worry" some had on the Corvette forums with CAGS - that would at low speed would cause you to shift from 1st to 4th gear. A lot of people were upset about that and bought devices to deactivate it. I have had 4 manuals in 19 years - they all had it and it was a non issue for me. If stop/start was to save 5% gas on every car sold that would be huge.
I was surprised to hear from my dealer that the GT behaves identically to the black label, hybrid has no effect on the start-stop behavior.
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Just now, Wheeling said:
Just test drove a Reserve II and didn't feel a thing about Start/Stop.
Great to hear. Thank You. It's on our agenda for today. I'm still concerned that five years from now it will not be as smooth as it is new. All of this CAFE stuff is supposed to reduce our carbon footprint, but for the estimated 5% increase in fuel efficiency, I've got to expect the cost in service and components, long term satisfaction is going to lead to greater carbon footprint. I'll bet this feature alone is responsible for a good year or two decrease in average time a vehicle spends in service. But you can't get out of it. Our backups are a new MB GLS450 or '17 GLS63, both of which have Eco-start. Everything does now, it seems. Again, thanks for the review. I'm looking forward to our test drive in a couple hours.
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3 minutes ago, jcartwright99 said:
You would be the first person here to call me a troll. Answer this, if you drove the Aviator would it determine if it would be a potential problem for you and your wife? Yes or no? If yes, drive the Aviator. It's that simple.
I don't need you to validate who you are or what you've done. Don't care and it doesn't matter. Good Luck on your search!
I doubt I'm the first person who's thought it. You just keep proving my point.
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8 minutes ago, jcartwright99 said:
Sorry you lost me at government contracting. Color me not impressed. Nobody cares what you do or how much money you make. Getting all bent out shape when someone asks you a logical question, is on you. I am not a a moderator, but I will say all are welcome here. However, someone relatively new, such as yourself, needs to think about why they are here. If you are here asking questions, then you may want to be polite and listen. Just my opinion, take it or leave it.
Quite the contrary, how long you have been here doesn't give you the right to lob thinly veiled insults and left-handed compliments at the new guy. You're again taking a massive leap. My comment had only to do with how busy I am, a topic you brought up. I've been around forums since the 80s. You want to dig a hole, I'll hand you a shovel. I'm here for the right reasons but I will call out a troll, snarky or otherwise.
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8 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:
Also disabling it permanently is technically a crime in some states as you are tampering with the approved emissions of the vehicle. It could even get worse if you were in an accident as the vehicle is technically not street legal under EPA rules, on top if a vehicle were totaled and you were paid out you then sold a party (Insurance Company) a vehicle with a tampered emission control system.
You know, I love my 2006 Cayenne Turbo S. I love how its ages so gracefully and still turns heads, can take it to Cars and Coffee all winter long and looks like it belongs. Here's yet another great reason to not replace it with a new Cayenne. -
10 minutes ago, Flying68 said:
I think what most people are getting at is that the system used by Ford/Lincoln for 2019+ model years is way better than what you may have experienced before with any other vehicle. I drove a 2019 Expedition and specifically wanted to check the auto stop start feature and the engine RPM was at idle before moving from the brake to gas it was that quick. The feature was not objectionable and unless you are monitoring RPM on the tach you would not notice as the engine noise at idle is less than the surrounding ambient noise (radio, conversation, traffic, etc.). Let your wife drive one, if not the Aviator, let her drive a Continental, Navigator, Expedition, or Explorer. Make sure it is enabled and don't tell her about it, see if she notices. Also as others have mentioned if you switch to the performance mode (excite) it disables it.
Agree completely. The problem is not blowing the surprise right? I just replace the carpet including the cargo space in her GL450, take the swirls out and sealed with ceramic for the third time. I put a lot of effort into throwing her off the scent.
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3 minutes ago, jcartwright99 said:
I'm no troll but am sincerely asking, why you aren't driving it first? It seems that would answer your questions about whether or not it would be an issue. Nobody is faulting you for doing research. I guess I value my time more than you do. You do you though.
you say you're not trolling but then you end with the quip about how you value your time more than I do. I run a 40 Man Government Contracting Company in the Cyber and network engineering space, have two small children, I'm busy from the minute I wake to the minute I go to sleep. I'm dictating right now while on an elliptical watching the news. Maybe I'm just a hell of a lot more productive than you are.
I've driven quite a number of cars with start-stop, mostly Mercedes and Porsche loaners. I have a pretty good idea what's the best it could be is. And I did say I was going to take a test drive. When it comes in if not sooner. Would you say it's a better or worse use of my time to figure out which cars I want to spend an hour going to test drive from a cellphone on an elliptical watching the news or do you think I'm better off figuring it out in person test driving
each car?
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9 minutes ago, jcartwright99 said:
Why are you hyper fixating on something you haven't driven yet? I mean driving it answers your questions. Trying to come up with away to avoid something that may or may not bother you seems like a waste of time. To each their own I guess.
So you consider doing my research a new car purchase for my 20th anniversary to be hyper fixating? Are you imagining me sitting in the dark wringing my hands over it? You also seem to think I've never driven a car with start-stop before? Or that my wife and I don't have some reasonably well formed opinion of our own? I'm not big fan of feeding trolls but don't you think that's a little bit of a leap?
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4 minutes ago, YT90SC said:
Seriously, DRIVE THE CAR. Go for a test drive without her. It is NOT noticeable.
Do Ecoboost motors restart by firing the piston closest to top like MB or does it hit the starter each time?
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8 minutes ago, YT90SC said:
I have seen a lot of bricked modules/corrupt software from people jacking around with Forscan with no idea what they are doing. You brick it, you bough it, no warranty. If you come in for something unrelated like a leak, still warranty.
Stop/start is a part of the vehicle's overall emissions package. There will NEVER be a Ford/Lincoln approved method or update to disable it. Tampering with it is an EPA fine-able offense.
OP You REALLY need to drive a vehicle with it. It is not noticeable at all. In fact, most customers complain when it *doesn't* work.
This thing is supposed to be a 20th anniversary present for my wife. This ******** is forcing me to come clean and take her to the dealership when it comes in about 6 weeks before our actual date to do that very thing. Unless I cancel between now and then. She's been in two MB GL's over the last decade and frankly fully optioned the Aviation isn't much cheaper. I'd like to go American again, but if the MB is more pleasant to drive, to include a BUTTON to turn it off every time as opposed to some features menu, that's a quality of life issue that can't be ignored.
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5 minutes ago, blwnsmoke said:
The 2020 Codes are completely different. We have not found the right code yet for the 2020 Explorer but the Explorer and Aviator should be the same. Once found, you will be able to disable it permanently. It just may take some time before everyone figures it out. It took 2 weeks just to find the damn "bulb out" coding so you don't get hyper flash changing to LED bulbs (Explorer doesn't have Led on the rear turn signals).
Okay, thanks. So are you affiliated with Forscan? And there's 100% confidence? That you'll get this thing turned off? And then the other question is regarding warranty. It makes zero sense to me what my salesman said today about it voiding warranty, don't think she's tech savvy, clearly. But since she said it, I need to ask the question.
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I'm not crazy about keyless either. Only reason cuz I'd rather have that key in the ignition than in my pocket where it can fall out. Of course the upside is the keychain doesn't bug you anymore. So it's a wash.
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Funny. If I could get Callahan Auto to tell me something that would turn off start-stop, I'd pay double for it. but I would happily settle for a guaranteed piece of s*** that would work.
2020 Aviator Start Stop :-(
in Lincoln Aviator Forum
Posted
I'm not the one missing the point here, my friend. Everyone understands this. Every single person reading this thread realizes the start stop new EPA mandated (ostensibly) emissions equipment, or like me if they didn't before they do now. I'm the consumer. I care about what matters to ME, not the Auto Industry. If there were a single ICE car manufacturer producing cars that didn't have this crap, I'd be strongly prejudiced toward them because I think this tech is very likely a net negative for the environment as well as the consumer.