STAP TURNS DOWN CONCESSIONS!

[rt2525]

Don't think any of us have forgot about the pensioners that paved the way for the benefits we have now and the last I heard Ford pensions were not at risk. Voting yes will would be a disservice to those same people and would reduce their benefits. As for severence voting yes would also greatly reduce the restructuring severence available. Please think and read the the highlights of the Chrysler contract before accusing someone of forgetting about others

Thanks Jaah-you saved me a much more detailed and angrier response!

[Edsel]

So you think we should vote yes? Because we'll get something if we do? LOL. You're an idiot. The company has just as much to lose as we do. They still have orders to fulfill. Last I checked, they don't have a replacement for our car. Nice try Ken.. I mean Ed.

 

 

Then go for it asshole.........

 

Ed.

[Edsel]

Thanks Jaah-you saved me a much more detailed and angrier response!

 

 

You too!

 

Ed.

[rt2525]

Then go for it asshole.........

 

Ed.

Rather than just being insulting to other posters,why not show some CLASS,and explain why we should follow the pattern and vote yes to more concessions.

Keep in mind,STAP has nothing to lose and OAC has no reason to give up any more than we already have.

[Trimdingman]

Oakville... we at STAP need your support brothers and sisters!!! We were ready to back you up if Ford didn't make up for the truck plant... and they did.. you guys have got some new models in the past few years and thats great.. it only strengthens our memebership all the more.... but please help us this time... we are the ones that need a new product... its not our job to judge what product or whether it sells... The new Ford will make that call.. but lets face it every plant in this country and the USA has faced what we are at STAP and every will do there best to make it work.... that is what I see at STAP today we are going to fight to the end both in efficiency and political. We have to... its out future on the line.

 

 

We didn't "make up for the Truck Plant". Our employment numbers are still way less than they were when we had the Truck Plant. We also lost the Freestar. We now have one line with four models counting the MKT at about 60-65 units an hour on two shifts with down weeks. We also had a lot of our work outsourced. Before, we were building 75 vans an hour on two shifts, and 60 pick-ups an hour on one shift. We were on 10 hours most of the time.

 

STAP's best hope is for OAC to get another product. We have un-used space in our abandoned paint shop and van body shop. Then they could transfer to Oakville. I can't see them operating two plants at around 50% capacity.

[Edsel]

OK,You need a product guarntee. We (or at least me) would like a 'trigger point'.

 

Ford may very well wind up on top after this clusterfuck. The bondholders and stock traders seem to think so. As offensive as it might be to STAP guys, We at OAC could be working 48+hrs a week this time next year. Pent up demand has a tipping point. We are looking at giving up 80-120 hours vaction over the past year (the latest company norm being the week layoff before Christmas). We need an out clause as well as a new product for STAP. Reinstatement of cola or the introduction of profit sharing or a sales/economic trigger where WE can re open the contract in 'good' times. Let's support each others interests.

 

Please speak up Windsor.

 

 

You people just don't get it! Ford is NOT alright! It's smoke and mirrors and the public fell for it. (and some very ill informed members) Read some of the comments posted after any news article on the web. People are NOT supporting GM or Chrysler but, are supporting Ford. Just what Ford hoped. Ford will be coming to the pump for cash, later if not sooner. They are STILL losing money and burning through cash. OAC_Paint? Could, is a really big word, is it not?

 

All you people that say your voting NO before you see and hear what is going to be presented to FORD WORKERS are nothing short of imbeciles. Is it any wonder the public are calling us UNEDUCATED?

 

Ed.

[gocash]

Then go for it asshole.........

 

Ed.

Edsel,If you really do work at Oakville Assembly,you should be very concerned about a YES vote to concessions.The STAPers are truly fed up with the "dangling carrot" and plant closure likeliness.In my opinion,Oakville will be the only assembly plant left in Canada in the near future.If members follow your lead,and vote YES,when STAP is eventually moose pasture-you will be the guy who is working alright.It will be for approx.80 less vacation hours per year,no summer bonus,far less break time per day, paying higher co-pays,loss of semi-private hospital bed(if ever needed)longer waiting period for S&A if needed,no more "clawback"during slow years with many down weeks,plus other losses that I can't think of right now, if the Chrysler contract is the "new pattern"...Concessions bring more concessions-when STAP is closed it won't affect us anymore,but you will still be working.What would be next to give?WAGES-HOURLY WAGES my friend,but yes you will still have a job,but will you still be able to afford to live in the GTA area?See Edsel,you might call someone from STAP an asshole,but he's tired of bending over and exposing his,whereas you will still expose yours to the corporate greed,and it will continue to be "filled in" for you for years to come.But yes,you will still have a job Edsel.If you are low on the seniority list like in the bottom 200-300 you won't have a job Edsel,there will be many layoffs due to the lost vacation hours.If I were you,I would seriously reconsider my position on a YES vote to accept concessions,because if you don't really think about the consequences,you will be the asshole,and it will be yours that is sore.

[Jaah]

You people just don't get it! Ford is NOT alright! It's smoke and mirrors and the public fell for it. (and some very ill informed members) Read some of the comments posted after any news article on the web. People are NOT supporting GM or Chrysler but, are supporting Ford. Just what Ford hoped. Ford will be coming to the pump for cash, later if not sooner. They are STILL losing money and burning through cash. OAC_Paint? Could, is a really big word, is it not?

 

All you people that say your voting NO before you see and hear what is going to be presented to FORD WORKERS are nothing short of imbeciles. Is it any wonder the public are calling us UNEDUCATED?

 

Ed.

 

I usually ignore your posts but I have some time to waste and I already expect that replying to you is a waste of time but you are entertaining in a sick sort of way. Let me be cordial for a moment and offer some advice. When you enter a thread and proceed to intimidate, verbally abuse and bully people to accept your way of thinking it only pushes people to consider the less annoying posts more carefully, so thank you for that. Try to appeal to people on their level, don't expect them to come down to yours. If you sound and post inteligently people will pay more attention, if you don't people will label you for what you are and every post you make will be viewed with that label in mind, if viewed at all. Calling people imbeciles and inferring they are uneducated is a tactic people use when they are unable to present a valid argument. People do not have to read the posts here, they do so for infromation or entertainment. Yours fits into the latter category but like a movie with too much gratuitous violence people tune it out or off eventually. You hav a nice day Ed.

[stapelec]

I usually ignore your posts but I have some time to waste and I already expect that replying to you is a waste of time but you are entertaining in a sick sort of way. Let me be cordial for a moment and offer some advice. When you enter a thread and proceed to intimidate, verbally abuse and bully people to accept your way of thinking it only pushes people to consider the less annoying posts more carefully, so thank you for that. Try to appeal to people on their level, don't expect them to come down to yours. If you sound and post inteligently people will pay more attention, if you don't people will label you for what you are and every post you make will be viewed with that label in mind, if viewed at all. Calling people imbeciles and inferring they are uneducated is a tactic people use when they are unable to present a valid argument. People do not have to read the posts here, they do so for infromation or entertainment. Yours fits into the latter category but like a movie with too much gratuitous violence people tune it out or off eventually. You hav a nice day Ed.

 

 

Good response Jaah, something tells me he won't comprehend it though.

[gocash]

Then go for it asshole.........

 

Ed.

Edsel,If you really do work at Oakville Assembly,you should be very concerned about a YES vote to concessions.The STAPers are truly fed up with the "dangling carrot" and plant closure likeliness.In my opinion,Oakville will be the only assembly plant left in Canada in the near future.If members follow your lead,and vote YES,when STAP is eventually moose pasture-you will be the guy who is working alright.It will be for approx.80 less vacation hours per year,no summer bonus,far less break time per day, paying higher co-pays,loss of semi-private hospital bed(if ever needed)longer waiting period for S&A if needed,no more "clawback"during slow years with many down weeks,plus other losses that I can't think of right now, if the Chrysler contract is the "new pattern"...Concessions bring more concessions-when STAP is closed it won't affect us anymore,but you will still be working.What would be next to give?WAGES-HOURLY WAGES my friend,but yes you will still have a job,but will you still be able to afford to live in the GTA area?See Edsel,you might call someone from STAP an asshole,but he's tired of bending over and exposing his,whereas you will still expose yours to the corporate greed,and it will continue to be "filled in" for you for years to come.But yes,you will still have a job Edsel.If you are low on the seniority list like in the bottom 200-300 you won't have a job Edsel,there will be many layoffs due to the lost vacation hours.If I were you,I would seriously reconsider my position on a YES vote to accept concessions,because if you don't really think about the consequences,you will be the asshole,and it will be yours that is sore.

[CBGB]

We never had the chance to vote on the concession package negotiated with GM but my vote would have been NO without a written in product guarantee. Now our union bargaining team has stated they will offer Ford the same enhanced package of concessions won by Chrysler. Considering the epic cuts to our collective agreement contained in this new round of talks, I see no option but to cast a resounding NO vote for the package as it stands in front of Chrysler.

 

The auto companies came to us requesting we open our collective agreement to help them through these tough ecomomic times, I have no problem with that, you gave me a decent job when times were good I will help you when times are bad. However, I do take issue with the magnitude of the demands compared to the non-existent returns. Bargaining has historically meant give and take, what has happened lately has been a unilateral rewriting of our previously accepted contract by the auto companies and governments. The long standing tradition of give and take has been re-defined to we give and they take. Our original contract should not be changed, any concessions we agree to provide the companies should have had a 12 month expiry at which time we could detemine the validity of contiinuing or ending them. Our complete capitulation to the bullying of the companies, governments and the right wing press is an embarrassment and an affront to union principles.

 

Now STAP is in a unique position, having been told we are closing in 2011 we have no reason to support any kind of concession no matter how small. OAC turned down the last concessions, having just recieved new product, they had no reason to accept them but the package passed thanks to the vote at STAP. What the hell were we thinking? So now it appears we will be back to the ballots once more to offer up our benefits for the good of the company. I can only hope that OAC still has the backbone they have demonstrated in the past and I pray that STAP will finally stand up for their future, our time is up, living to fight another day is NOT an option.

 

So what would I accept and vote for. I would except some concessions if STAP recieved a product guarantee and I don't mean some vague promise based on market share or another year if sales stay good. I would support nothing less than then a public naming of a model and the year of the new product. If that does not happen then the CAW better negotiate a decent termination package for us because we are done, probably sooner than many expect.

Great post.

[CBGB]

OK,You need a product guarntee. We (or at least me) would like a 'trigger point'.

 

Ford may very well wind up on top after this clusterfuck. The bondholders and stock traders seem to think so. As offensive as it might be to STAP guys, We at OAC could be working 48+hrs a week this time next year. Pent up demand has a tipping point. We are looking at giving up 80-120 hours vaction over the past year (the latest company norm being the week layoff before Christmas). We need an out clause as well as a new product for STAP. Reinstatement of cola or the introduction of profit sharing or a sales/economic trigger where WE can re open the contract in 'good' times. Let's support each others interests.

 

Please speak up Windsor.

Very good points.

[OAC_Sparky]

I don't want to see any brothers and sisters at STAP losing their jobs.

 

That said, I say this.

 

The CAW bent over for Chrysler because they wanted the government money. Period.

 

Notice that base wages weren't touched? That means that Tony (can suck my knob) Clement gets his fuckin tax money and so does the CAW in dues. The worker and retiree gets ths shaft.

 

Since we signed our contract early the Canadian dollar has lost 20% in value meaning our wages effectively became 20% more attractive.

 

Ford doesn't want loan money because it says "it's ok"; the reality is that it doesn't want to submit to govenment control. And I don't blame them, If anyone thas less of a clue how to run a company than GM or Chrysler or Ford, it's the government. But if Ford wants what Chrysler got, then it better bend over and let the govenment have its say. You can't say "hey I'm ok" and expect up to bend over AGAIN.

 

If Ford can't honor the contract it already signed with us back last May, I have no faith in anything they might promise to STAP (or Windsor). The contract wouldn't be worth the ink it's written on.

 

In my opinion, anyway.

[Jaah]

If Ford can't honor the contract it already signed with us back last May, I have no faith in anything they might promise to STAP (or Windsor). The contract wouldn't be worth the ink it's written on.

 

In my opinion, anyway.

 

You are right, unfortunately our current contract is worth about the same. I do believe that a public statement with details confirming a new product would help garner some support for some concessions. It has come down to not only helping Ford out in difficult times but to ceasing our last opportunity to bargain for our future. This is probably our best and last chance.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Jaah

[OAC_Sparky]

You are right, unfortunately our current contract is worth about the same. I do believe that a public statement with details confirming a new product would help garner some support for some concessions. It has come down to not only helping Ford out in difficult times but to ceasing our last opportunity to bargain for our future. This is probably our best and last chance.

A public statement means squat.

 

Remember the public statement made about all Ford employees getting computers? I remember the public astonishment over the issue, never heard it officially announced that we weren't getting them and we never did.

 

I seem to remember the public announcement that our Windsor brothers and sisters were getting transfers to OAC, many moved for jobs that never materialized.

 

Public announcements are only good if you intend to follow through. The track record is not good.

[Jaah]

Ok so a public statement means squat and a written agreement is worthless, so keeping in mind that the status quo is not acceptable, maybe you could advise us of how you would handle it. You have a right to your opinion and I respect that right even if I don't agree but telling us its all worthless or that it won't mean squat without offering an alternative solution does not make your post very constructive.

[OAC_Sparky]

I don't have the answers, only my opinion. My opinion is that Ford isn't going to piss off the UAW by putting brand new product in STAP when part of their bloodletting was getting all the new commitments to new product.

 

Like I said previously, our May contract gave them back a week of vacation per year, benefit copays and cuts, frozen wages and suspended COLA. And on top of that, at contract time the currency exchange was par and now it's down 22%. No not only did we give them concessions to weather "the perfect storm", they got a 22% bonus.

 

They hadn't even begun to reap the dollar benefits of what we gave them, and the Union wants to give them more? If I was truly convinced it would save your jobs I'd consider it. Sorry, I don't think it's in the cards.That's my opinion; and I'm sorry if it's not what you'd like to hear but it isn't my job to blow sunshine up your ass.

 

So from where I'm standing, if Ford is not operating under the premise of getting government money then we should stick to our guns and make them ride out the contract we ratified. In my 20 years at Ford (and I started working for this company in Windsor and went through a plant closure and had to relocate here back in '92) we never once opened up the contract mid-stream and asked for more money when Ford was raking in BILLIONS in profit (damn, I remember when there was talk of overtaking GM as the number one automaker). The CAW doesn't have to be militant about it, just grow some stones and point to the contract that Ford signed that the ink is still wet on.

[gocash]

I don't have the answers, only my opinion. My opinion is that Ford isn't going to piss off the UAW by putting brand new product in STAP when part of their bloodletting was getting all the new commitments to new product.

 

Like I said previously, our May contract gave them back a week of vacation per year, benefit copays and cuts, frozen wages and suspended COLA. And on top of that, at contract time the currency exchange was par and now it's down 22%. No not only did we give them concessions to weather "the perfect storm", they got a 22% bonus.

 

They hadn't even begun to reap the dollar benefits of what we gave them, and the Union wants to give them more? If I was truly convinced it would save your jobs I'd consider it. Sorry, I don't think it's in the cards.That's my opinion; and I'm sorry if it's not what you'd like to hear but it isn't my job to blow sunshine up your ass.

 

So from where I'm standing, if Ford is not operating under the premise of getting government money then we should stick to our guns and make them ride out the contract we ratified. In my 20 years at Ford (and I started working for this company in Windsor and went through a plant closure and had to relocate here back in '92) we never once opened up the contract mid-stream and asked for more money when Ford was raking in BILLIONS in profit (damn, I remember when there was talk of overtaking GM as the number one automaker). The CAW doesn't have to be militant about it, just grow some stones and point to the contract that Ford signed that the ink is still wet on.

Good Post,well written.I agree

[kpc655]

Ummm what????

Last time I get on this merry-go-round.

1. I am not asking for Ford to guarantee sales.

2. I am not asking for Ford to Guarantee production.

3. I am asking that Ford guarantee a new product for STAP before I would CONSIDER any concessions.

 

You want a guarantee before you consider?

 

wow. I cannot believe this mentality exists here. Guaranteed jobs..where are we, soviet russia?

 

Here's the job, here's the pay. take it or leave it.

[Jaah]

I don't have the answers, only my opinion. My opinion is that Ford isn't going to piss off the UAW by putting brand new product in STAP when part of their bloodletting was getting all the new commitments to new product.

 

Like I said previously, our May contract gave them back a week of vacation per year, benefit copays and cuts, frozen wages and suspended COLA. And on top of that, at contract time the currency exchange was par and now it's down 22%. No not only did we give them concessions to weather "the perfect storm", they got a 22% bonus.

 

They hadn't even begun to reap the dollar benefits of what we gave them, and the Union wants to give them more? If I was truly convinced it would save your jobs I'd consider it. Sorry, I don't think it's in the cards.That's my opinion; and I'm sorry if it's not what you'd like to hear but it isn't my job to blow sunshine up your ass.

 

So from where I'm standing, if Ford is not operating under the premise of getting government money then we should stick to our guns and make them ride out the contract we ratified. In my 20 years at Ford (and I started working for this company in Windsor and went through a plant closure and had to relocate here back in '92) we never once opened up the contract mid-stream and asked for more money when Ford was raking in BILLIONS in profit (damn, I remember when there was talk of overtaking GM as the number one automaker). The CAW doesn't have to be militant about it, just grow some stones and point to the contract that Ford signed that the ink is still wet on.

 

Thanks Sparky for your opinion and honesty. In different times I would entirely agree with you. Unfortunately STAP has the the proverbial axe hanging over its head and if we can wrangle some kind of committment for a new product it would be worth some concessions to us at STAP. If not then I will NOT support ANY concessions. I hope you can understand our position even if you dissagree.

[Jaah]

You want a guarantee before you consider?

 

wow. I cannot believe this mentality exists here. Guaranteed jobs..where are we, soviet russia?

 

Here's the job, here's the pay. take it or leave it.

 

 

I am truly sorry about your head injury.

[charly]

Rather than just being insulting to other posters,why not show some CLASS,and explain why we should follow the pattern and vote yes to more concessions.

Keep in mind,STAP has nothing to lose and OAC has no reason to give up any more than we already have.

 

 

 

Which "pattern"?

[tbill]

I don't have the answers, only my opinion. My opinion is that Ford isn't going to piss off the UAW by putting brand new product in STAP when part of their bloodletting was getting all the new commitments to new product.

 

Like I said previously, our May contract gave them back a week of vacation per year, benefit copays and cuts, frozen wages and suspended COLA. And on top of that, at contract time the currency exchange was par and now it's down 22%. No not only did we give them concessions to weather "the perfect storm", they got a 22% bonus.

 

They hadn't even begun to reap the dollar benefits of what we gave them, and the Union wants to give them more? If I was truly convinced it would save your jobs I'd consider it. Sorry, I don't think it's in the cards.That's my opinion; and I'm sorry if it's not what you'd like to hear but it isn't my job to blow sunshine up your ass.

 

So from where I'm standing, if Ford is not operating under the premise of getting government money then we should stick to our guns and make them ride out the contract we ratified. In my 20 years at Ford (and I started working for this company in Windsor and went through a plant closure and had to relocate here back in '92) we never once opened up the contract mid-stream and asked for more money when Ford was raking in BILLIONS in profit (damn, I remember when there was talk of overtaking GM as the number one automaker). The CAW doesn't have to be militant about it, just grow some stones and point to the contract that Ford signed that the ink is still wet on.

 

Hear Hear!!!

[charly]

I don't want to see any brothers and sisters at STAP losing their jobs.

 

That said, I say this.

 

The CAW bent over for Chrysler because they wanted the government money. Period.

 

Notice that base wages weren't touched? That means that Tony (can suck my knob) Clement gets his fuckin tax money and so does the CAW in dues. The worker and retiree gets ths shaft.

 

Since we signed our contract early the Canadian dollar has lost 20% in value meaning our wages effectively became 20% more attractive.

 

Ford doesn't want loan money because it says "it's ok"; the reality is that it doesn't want to submit to govenment control. And I don't blame them, If anyone thas less of a clue how to run a company than GM or Chrysler or Ford, it's the government. But if Ford wants what Chrysler got, then it better bend over and let the govenment have its say. You can't say "hey I'm ok" and expect up to bend over AGAIN.

 

If Ford can't honor the contract it already signed with us back last May, I have no faith in anything they might promise to STAP (or Windsor). The contract wouldn't be worth the ink it's written on.

 

In my opinion, anyway.

 

 

:yup: :yup: :yup:

 

We need a pattern of our own.

[Edsel]

:yup: :yup: :yup:

 

We need a pattern of our own.

 

 

Hey charly, don't bother, most on this post want window dressing and NOT reality. (Jaah) Have another blunt.

 

 

Ed.