crownvicsparky Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I really apologize if someone already said this, but I just couldn't bear to read through 4 pages of meaningless rhetoric........ It really doesn't matter how you vote, your vote is absolutely meaningless. Ford is in survival mode right now. Ford is currently behaving like a wild animal, they'll do whatever they can to survive this mess. I hate to be such an asshole, but you're giving the CAW democratic process way too much credit. If Ford wants to shut down STAP, they will. Your CAW vote, is absolutely irrelevant. So vote which ever way you think best, but please know that your votes are being cast on a pieces of toilet paper that are ready to be flushed. I know I sound like a total Company Yes man, but If you think your votes are meaningful, then you really need to start paying attention to whats been going on lately. maybe so... but we have shown ford that we are worth it and have worked hard to prove it.... now its time to show them back bone and determination. You gain a lot of respect from a person if you demand it with taste and confidence... so I say lets tell what we want and show them we mean business this time.. don't forget... along with our union brothers and sisters reading these posts don't think they aren't too... what we say here and the impression we make counts!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaah Posted May 12, 2009 Author Share Posted May 12, 2009 I really apologize if someone already said this, but I just couldn't bear to read through 4 pages of meaningless rhetoric........ It really doesn't matter how you vote, your vote is absolutely meaningless. Ford is in survival mode right now. Ford is currently behaving like a wild animal, they'll do whatever they can to survive this mess. I hate to be such an asshole, but you're giving the CAW democratic process way too much credit. If Ford wants to shut down STAP, they will. Your CAW vote, is absolutely irrelevant. So vote which ever way you think best, but please know that your votes are being cast on a pieces of toilet paper that are ready to be flushed. I know I sound like a total Company Yes man, but If you think your votes are meaningful, then you really need to start paying attention to whats been going on lately. Perhaps you should apologize for insulting those that posted before you or at the very least for adding to the "meaningless rhetoric". If you really think our votes are "toilet paper ready to be flushed" why bother to even respond to this thread, it gives one the impression you don't believe your own supposition. No one expects the ballot to say... keep STAP opened, YES or NO, we expect to be voting to keep our current contract or giving more concessions. How people vote will depend on the details which we do not have yet but can guess at by looking at the Chrysler/GM concessions. Those of us at STAP would like support for the best deal we can get for the time we have remaining. No concessions, a better closure package and yes maybe even a new product if Ford wants us to give something up bad enough. There is a lot of room for compromise between concessions and new product on both sides, the result will be somewhere in between. Maybe if you had read the previous pages you would have understood this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stapelec Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Perhaps you should apologize for insulting those that posted before you or at the very least for adding to the "meaningless rhetoric". If you really think our votes are "toilet paper ready to be flushed" why bother to even respond to this thread, it gives one the impression you don't believe your own supposition. No one expects the ballot to say... keep STAP opened, YES or NO, we expect to be voting to keep our current contract or giving more concessions. How people vote will depend on the details which we do not have yet but can guess at by looking at the Chrysler/GM concessions. Those of us at STAP would like support for the best deal we can get for the time we have remaining. No concessions, a better closure package and yes maybe even a new product if Ford wants us to give something up bad enough. There is a lot of room for compromise between concessions and new product on both sides, the result will be somewhere in between. Maybe if you had read the previous pages you would have understood this. Hey Jaah, Scott misses your cheery face this week!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guilt trip Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Perhaps you should apologize for insulting those that posted before you or at the very least for adding to the "meaningless rhetoric". If you really think our votes are "toilet paper ready to be flushed" why bother to even respond to this thread, it gives one the impression you don't believe your own supposition. No one expects the ballot to say... keep STAP opened, YES or NO, we expect to be voting to keep our current contract or giving more concessions. How people vote will depend on the details which we do not have yet but can guess at by looking at the Chrysler/GM concessions. Those of us at STAP would like support for the best deal we can get for the time we have remaining. No concessions, a better closure package and yes maybe even a new product if Ford wants us to give something up bad enough. There is a lot of room for compromise between concessions and new product on both sides, the result will be somewhere in between. Maybe if you had read the previous pages you would have understood this. ....There is no compromising right now. Remember that Ford is a US company. Anyone who actually thinks Ford gives a shit about us up here is kidding themselves. They have plenty of US plants that are idled now/will be, and could use product. How long do you think it would take for some politician in the US to give Ford a grant to revamp a plant if it meant product there and employment for 3000+ people? Not very... My opinion is that a no vote could possibly jeopardize a lot of things...maybe the closure packages, maybe Ford yanks operations out of Canada. I don't know what they're thinking. But before you start flaming, ask yourself what you would do if YOU owned Ford and you might look at things a bit differently. Say...after all these concessions are done for example(US/Can), Say the total labour costs are $10/hr cheaper in the US because we voted no. Based on 3000 employees(OAC) times 40 hours....that's $1.2 million a week cheaper.....Kind of makes it an easy decision doesn't it, especially if we're looked upon as not doing our best,(bending over and taking it) to help the company out. We have to at least meet what they're doing in the US or better yet, be cheaper.....again, my opinion.... It's going to be very interesting. On one hand you'd love to tell them to shove it, but on the other hand do you risk your livelihood/pension etc? It's a tough call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaah Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) ....There is no compromising right now. Remember that Ford is a US company. Anyone who actually thinks Ford gives a shit about us up here is kidding themselves. They have plenty of US plants that are idled now/will be, and could use product. How long do you think it would take for some politician in the US to give Ford a grant to revamp a plant if it meant product there and employment for 3000+ people? Not very... My opinion is that a no vote could possibly jeopardize a lot of things...maybe the closure packages, maybe Ford yanks operations out of Canada. I don't know what they're thinking. But before you start flaming, ask yourself what you would do if YOU owned Ford and you might look at things a bit differently. Say...after all these concessions are done for example(US/Can), Say the total labour costs are $10/hr cheaper in the US because we voted no. Based on 3000 employees(OAC) times 40 hours....that's $1.2 million a week cheaper.....Kind of makes it an easy decision doesn't it, especially if we're looked upon as not doing our best,(bending over and taking it) to help the company out. We have to at least meet what they're doing in the US or better yet, be cheaper.....again, my opinion.... It's going to be very interesting. On one hand you'd love to tell them to shove it, but on the other hand do you risk your livelihood/pension etc? It's a tough call. No one is kidding themseves, In general, companies care only about the dollar they can pocket and if that means lowering the employees standard of living then thats what they will try to do. History tells us its up to us, Joe worker, to stand up to them or we will be working 16 hour days to put meager food on the table for our families. Now Ford has a contract with us which by all indications they will be asking us to open and agree to more concessions, just one of which is a reduction in the restructuring clause, the closure package you mentioned. Do you really expect us to to bow down to this. I mean really think about this, Ford tells us they are closing our plant and we in return tell them they are paying us to much severance when they do? There is virtually no chance Ford will move CV/GM/TC to a US plant given the age of the equipment, the dwindling demand and production ending in 2011. We have nothing to lose. To be honest this is not the case for those in Oakville and Windsor and they will have to make their decision based on other factors, all we can do is ask for their support. PS: Its extremely rare I would flame anyone for posting an opinion in an intelligent and non-belegeant manner. Edited May 13, 2009 by Jaah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guilt trip Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 No one is kidding themseves, In general, companies care only about the dollar they can pocket and if that means lowering the employees standard of living then thats what they will try to do. History tells us its up to us, Joe worker, to stand up to them or we will be working 16 hour days to put meager food on the table for our families. Now Ford has a contract with us which by all indications they will be asking us to open and agree to more concessions, just one of which is a reduction in the restructuring clause, the closure package you mentioned. Do you really expect us to to bow down to this. I mean really think about this, Ford tells us they are closing our plant and we in return tell them they are paying us to much severance when they do? There is virtually no chance Ford will move CV/GM/TC to a US plant given the age of the equipment, the dwindling demand and production ending in 2011. We have nothing to lose. To be honest this is not the case for those in Oakville and Windsor and they will have to make their decision based on other factors, all we can do is ask for their support. PS: Its extremely rare I would flame anyone for posting an opinion in an intelligent and non-belegeant manner. This is the thing. I don't see STAP saying yes to anything regarding this unless the CAW gets more buyouts/closure packages so that those losing their jobs,(if/when it closes), will have the opportunity to work at other plants. Yes we already have a contract in place, but that doesn't matter now. Chrysler and GM have re-opened it again and Ford wants the same pattern bargaining, that's gone on for years, and why wouldn't they? We have no choice in re-opening it. Well we do,but you know what I mean. The precedent has been set with the other companies. To say you don't have nothing to lose...I respectfully disagree. You guys do have something to lose....we all do. Closure packages, recall rights, pensions, your current job, etc. in the end tho....hopefully we all survive........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaah Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 This is the thing. I don't see STAP saying yes to anything regarding this unless the CAW gets more buyouts/closure packages so that those losing their jobs,(if/when it closes), will have the opportunity to work at other plants. Yes we already have a contract in place, but that doesn't matter now. Chrysler and GM have re-opened it again and Ford wants the same pattern bargaining, that's gone on for years, and why wouldn't they? We have no choice in re-opening it. Well we do,but you know what I mean. The precedent has been set with the other companies. To say you don't have nothing to lose...I respectfully disagree. You guys do have something to lose....we all do. Closure packages, recall rights, pensions, your current job, etc. in the end tho....hopefully we all survive........ I do agree with you but I think you misunderstood my comment 'we have nothing to lose", perhaps my fault for not being more clear. It was refering to voting no on concessions as agreed to at Chrysler and probably GM. Obviously if all the issues you mentioned were resolved to our satisfaction a Yes vote would be in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allford1 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 STAP must prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I will now wait to hear the firey speech in front of the Ontario legislature saying STAP will not be left high and dry or will I just hear crickets. It is up to national (which is every CAW member) to protect the interests of St. Thomas plant and its people. GOOD LUCK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stapelec Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 One of the Boy's ran into Whitey last week, Whitey said the CAW starts negotiations with Ford next week. So I guess we'll find out what's happening soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaah Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) STAP must prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I will now wait to hear the firey speech in front of the Ontario legislature saying STAP will not be left high and dry or will I just hear crickets. It is up to national (which is every CAW member) to protect the interests of St. Thomas plant and its people. GOOD LUCK Hopefully I am wrong but I doubt we will see much support for STAP from the national. Doubtful that even the crickets will chirp. We are probably on our own along with a bit of support from other locals. Edited May 14, 2009 by Jaah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaah Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 "CHICAGO (AFP) — Ford Motor Co. remains on track to return to profitability by 2011 and will not need government loans to help it survive the current economic downturn, the automaker's chief said Thursday." Another reason to think carefully about giving concessions that we may be hard pressed to win back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
young buck 1520 Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Rumour has it... Oakvilles current product will be built in St.Thomas by 2011 :stats: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbill Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Rumour has it... Oakvilles current product will be built in St.Thomas by 2011 :stats: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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