mustang84isu
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Posts posted by mustang84isu
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I have noticed that Ford's paint quality has really gone downhill. My 2001 LS had paint that still looked brand new when I got rid of it at 140K miles. My 2007 MKZ started having minor rust issues @130K around the wheel wells despite me being pretty meticulous about claying and waxing it, and being garage stored...otherwise, the paint was in pretty decent shape overall when I got rid of it. However, our Edge and Continental (2017's) have had lots of issues with chipping paint on the bumper and hood, and the Continental even has corrosion bubbling up on a couple spots around the wheel wells despite being garaged 95% of the time and also receiving regular detailing and washes. I don't know if this is the result of cost cutting, poor QC, or just more eco-friendly paint that doesn't last as long, but I hope they address it.
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5 hours ago, akirby said:
You're joking, right? Maverick, Bronco, Bronco Sport, Ranger Raptor, F150 Raptor, Bronco Raptor and Mustang Dark Horse generate 1000 times more buzz than fusion, focus, fiesta and Ecosport.
10 years ago they had 15 vehicles. Today it’s 14. Sales and market share are similar but profits are way up.
The Fusion and Focus generated a lot of buzz when they came out, especially the 2013 Fusion. But in typical Ford fashion, they let things rot on the vine and then claim it was lack of demand that killed it instead of Ford's own lack of investment into that product or nameplate. The 2017 Fusion refresh was weak and barely on anyone's radar, and it is not much of a surprise that sales went from 300K only a couple years earlier to 200K in 2017, then 173K in 2018, and then off the cliff when rumors about the Fusion's demise started to leak.
Ford's market share is actually down from where it was in 2015, 2016, and 2017. It was almost 15% in 2017, dropped to 12.9% in 2022, and we don't have full figures yet for 2023 but in Q3 in was 12.8%. How much of that lost market share was ceded to other manufacturers by axing sedans and not having a more diverse lineup?
Ford's profits are up quite a bit since covid, but they are still down from where they were in 2015, 16, and 17. Gross profit in 2022 was $23 million, but in 2015-16-17 it was over $25 million and go back to 2013 and it was approaching $27 million. I think offerings like Ford Pro are bringing a new revenue stream that will help Ford with more consistent profitability, but I worry Ford has backed itself into a corner on products by focusing only on what is popular at the moment and won't be able to react to changing trends when the tide inevitably shifts again. Look at how popular SUV's were in 2000, and then how popular sedans were only 10 years later, and then back to SUV's in 2020. The difference in 2000 and 2010 was that Ford had a diverse lineup that could quickly react to changes, and not having a single sedan to sell seems foolish in this high interest rate environment. Sedan sales for the Japanese three have stabilized, and Honda's new Accord was actually up almost 30% in 2023. The Chevy Malibu was up 13% despite being pretty outdated. Q1 2023 was the first time sedans had seen market share gain in the US since 2002 apparently, per Automotive News. Seems like a mistake for Ford not to being participating at all.
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This refresh looks better to me than the previous version. I always felt like the rear of the 2020 Explorer had too much blank real estate, and I think the light bar going across the back helps break it up. I also like the squared off grille more than the 2020's grille. Interior looks better too.
Echoing some others, the only thing I don't like is that they went away from physical knobs and buttons. I rented a 2022 Edge a couple years ago with the vertical screen and was not a fan of so many basic functions being buried in the screen. I have both physical buttons and redundant screen controls on my Continental, and I rarely find myself using the controls on the screen. I'd actually rather see smaller screens that are better integrated into the interior design rather than the larger Tesla-style projected tablet that everyone seems to do now. I think the 2025 Navigator does a nice job of getting away from the stuck-on tablet aesthetic, so hopefully we see that trickle down to other Ford products in the future.
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I liked the Charger concept quite a bit, but the production version looks even better. It's hard to tell if the proportions have changed, but they feel better on the production model, especially the rear deck...which doesn't appear to droop as much as it did on the concept. The c-pillar also looks a little less chunky.
This will be refreshing to see on the streets in a world awash with boring CUV's. Hopefully they make a sedan version for Chrysler. Ford should take a hint.
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Jeep's sales have really fallen off a cliff the last several years. They sold almost a million in the US a few years back...now down to 642K. I think that was a couple years before Bronco and Bronco Sport were released, and that was back before the Gladiator and Wagoneer were added to the lineup. Either Ford is eating their lunch with the Bronco/BS, or they're becoming so ubiquitous on the road that people are intentionally choosing a different brand to avoid driving the same vehicle as their neighbor/co-worker.
FCA and now Stellantis would have been far better served investing in Dodge and Chrysler instead of dumping money into Fiat and Alfa for the US market. All these years later, they are not even close to approaching the sales of even a zombie brand with essentially one model like Chrysler.
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It is happening to combined stores as well. My hometown's dealership was a Chevy, Buick, and GMC store, and four other Chevy, Buick, GMC stores within a 50 mile radius also are now just Chevy GMC.
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It's suprising how rapidly Ford, GM and Stellantis have divested from rural markets. Twenty years ago my hometown of 5,500 people used to have a standalone Chevrolet dealership, a Pontiac-Buick-GMC-Cadillac dealership, a Ford-Mercury-Lincoln dealership, and a Chrysler-Dodge-Jeep dealership. The Chrysler dealership lost all its franchises during Chrysler's 2009 bankruptcy. The Cadillac franchise left around the same time. The Chevy dealership and the (by then) Buick-GMC dealership were bought by the Ford dealership and merged into a single dealership with five brands (Mercury was gone by that time). However, within the last year both Lincoln and Buick are gone, and now they are down to Ford, Chevy, and GMC. Eleven brands 20 years ago, down to 3 today.
Two thoughts:
1) Forcing dealerships to upgrade to EV--and if they don't, pulling their franchise--in rural areas is a mistake. Rural areas will always lag because they don't have widespread EV infrastructure yet. It will get there, but it will take more time. I can see thinning some of the less performing dealerships, but in my state they literally pulled every Buick franchise that is not in a metro area.
2) Driving 1-2 hours to service your Buick or Lincoln is really going to limit any sort of sales growth outside of metropolitan areas, at least in the Midwest. You still see lots of new Buicks and Lincolns because they have (well, had) a dealership presence in these rural markets, unlike German, Japanese, and Korean brands. This just further erodes the brand loyalty in those areas and will make it more difficult for struggling brands like Lincoln and Buick to survive in the US market.
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Here's a video comparing the Cybertruck 35 mph crash with several other midsize pickups. A pretty telling display of how poor Cybertruck's crumple zones are compared to the competition. Elon jokes about how if you are in an argument with another car, you will probably win. Your passengers might suffer spinal fractures or other debilitating injuries, but sure...you'll "win."
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Has anyone seen photos of the rear seat headroom with a regular sized adult sitting back there? I've seen video of people getting in and out and it looks cramped, but it is hard to find actual photos of a tall adult sitting back there. It's probably better than the Model Y's third row which is only fit for a child or small adult, but it seems like the raked shape would sacrifice rear seat headroom quite a bit.
One of the things that has always surprised me about Teslas with a glass roof is that they don't offer a sunshade that retracts. I have the pano sunroof on my Continental, and during the winter I usually keep the shade closed because the sun is often low enough to cause glare issues in the cabin, and it helps keep the cabin more comfortable when it is cold outside. The pano roof window tint really doesn't help much. With the Cybertruck having a raked window and potentially low headroom for rear passengers, I imagine that will get annoying fast when you have full sun blaring down and no way to control it.
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The Cybertruck reveal had a "crash test" where they slammed the Cybertruck into a steel wall at 35 mph, and as many have predicted, the crumple zones are pretty much non-existent. There was enough force transferred through the body that it snapped the rear axle. I don't know how NHTSA even approves this for public roads at this point. The sharp corners are a danger to pedestrians. Add in the faulty FSD software and this truck is guaranteed to cause some gruesome accidents in the future.
Apparently the drag race with the Porsche was only an 1/8th mile, even through the video said it was a quarter mile.
https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/189g2l7/cybertruck_racing_the_porsche_911_was_only_a_18/
I think this will be Tesla's first flop of a vehicle. Elon really overpromised and underdelivered on this one.
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It's interesting that pundits and journalists were predicting death of the ICE, but YTD Ford's ICE sales are actually up a couple percent more than BEV sales.
However, Ford just can't seem to get in the right groove in this transition to BEV. They were way too late to the EV game...dragging their feet with compliance vehicles like the Focus Electric when the EV market was still pretty young and they would have had a better shot at picking up early market share. Now they have killed off sedans and have let other bread-and-butter vehicles languish during the 2020-2021 inflation mania and stock market boom that would be a beneficial to have in this post-COVID inflation hangover. Went all in on SUV's and trucks when gas prices were still low, and finally went all in on BEV's during the same 2021 inflationary bubble. The timing couldn't have been worse.
Ford continues to throw well known names such as Focus, Fusion, and possibly now Escape in the trash. It boggles the mind. Maybe they'll come back as EV's? But then we hear things like they don't want to be in the two-row EV crossover segment because it's too competitive. Huh? Build a competitive two-row crossover then. Put the same energy you put into the F-150 Lighting, Mach-E, Maverick, and Bronco. Ford is becoming so timid these days that I fear they are permanently ceding market share to competitors, and we all know that once you lose those customers, it is hard to get them back. Sure, margins and profitability are important, but so far shrinking the business hasn't yielded the intended results. Ford's profit last year was about the same as 2017, and actually less than 2015 & 2013. And Ford's stock price continues to be in the gutter because they can't seem to stick to a consistent product strategy or focused message. It's going to be an agonizing next couple years until BlueOvalCity is finally online and the next generation of EV's start rolling out.
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21 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:
There's a very strong argument that if you want to save the planet, hybrids are the answer. They produce hardly any emissions, but can be offered at a much lower price that BEVs currently, drastically reducing the barrier to entry.
BEVs are great, but many people, especially many young people, can't afford them. But most people can afford a maverick hybrid. If we transition everything to BEV only in, let's say, the next 10 years, all that's gonna happen is you're gonna be left with a lot of consumers who are priced out of the new car market. Who will continue to drive around in things like 20 year old golfs and Corollas which are far worse for the planet than a new Ford hybrid.
IMO, the biggest barrier to entry is charging infrastructure itself. Where I live, multi-family apartment complexes are going up everywhere - and none of them have charging infrastructure being built in. If you can't charge overnight, the prospect of owning an EV becomes difficult, if not impossible. Retrofitting older houses with charging stations is also a cost and burden that not many will want to take on initially. Until charging times drop down to the equivalent of a gas engine or charging stations become more widespread, I think EV adoption will be much slower than some are expecting. I agree that hybrids are our best solution for the interim if we are trying to focus on what is best for the environment....and I don't know why governments aren't doing more to push hybrids instead of expensive EV's.
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Ford continues to be floating downstream without a paddle when it comes to Lincoln. Really disappointing. I felt like Farley was moving things in the right direction a couple years ago, but there have been some really questionable decisions and waffling on product lately. FoMoCo is not inspiring a lot of confidence these days.
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One more "what if"....if the 2017 MKZ refresh had adopted more of a Continental rear end.
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42 minutes ago, Andrew L said:
I owned a 13 and now have a 17. I really like the 17-20 front end a lot better than the split wing grill. The 13-16 is fine IMO but it reminds me a bit too much of cars from the 40s with that bath tub look. I think the more formal front end makes the overall package look better. I am probably in the minority on that since I know a lot of folks like the 13-16 better but just my 2 cents.
I also prefer the 17-20 MKZ front end. I was disappointed they did nothing to refresh the rear, because I think it could have looked great if they had made the rear design language better match the front - such as take some cues from the Continental's rear. I don't know if they were locked in with hardpoints or just didn't have enough budget, but I agree with the comment that it looks like the front and rear for both MKZ generations were designed by different people.
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Speaking of Photoshop, here's a quick sketch of how I wish they would have done the Continental.
1. RWD & RWD proportions2. Reduce the height of the front cowl
3. Get rid of lower chrome strip / more sculptural body
4. Skinnier upper chrome Continental badge
All minor changes, but I think they would have helped a bit.
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On 7/14/2023 at 7:00 AM, Andrew L said:
IIRC Max Wolff had nothing to do with the MKS and MKT refresh I think he was only there to introduce them. I remember his BIG contribution was flipping the bars on the 2013 MKZ from vertical to horizontal and that apparently shocked and amazed everyone... at least that's how the story went. I can't remember which vehicle was 100% his but I think it was the MKC but he was out of Lincoln by 2014 so who knows.
I agree with the refreshed MKS and MKT not looking great. MKT didn't look great from the beginning but Peter Horbury went on record saying it was rushed and he was disappointed with it. A lot was lost in translation with the MKT Concept.
Personally I was never crazy about the split wing grill. I always felt the smaller it was the better design wise like the first MKS. When it got too big like the 2010-2012 MKZ or the MKT it just looked wrong.
I looked Max up on LinkedIn and he is listed as Lincoln Design Director from 2011-2015. I remember him being responsible for the 2013 MKZ...which I think was the first model with the split wing grille with horizontal bars. I didn't necessarily hate the new direction, but I didn't love it either. I feel like the split wing translated pretty well on some vehicles like the MKC....not so great on others such as the MKZ.
David Woodhouse took over as Lincoln Design Director in 2016. Apparently Kemal Curic was the one who was the lead designer for the 2015 Mustang, 2017 Continental, and 2020 Aviator, which are all excellent designs, IMO. It sounds like he was also involved with the Star concept. No idea who is involved with the current Lincolns coming out of China. -
9 hours ago, Andrew L said:
Probably my favorite styling era of Lincoln in recent years was probably the early 2000s. I am probably biased but I own an 04 Aviator and owned an 04 LS. The LS aged so gracefully I still see them on the road from time to time and I think they are just beautifully styled. I love the Lincoln "shield" grill of that era and works so well on the entire lineup. Town Car, Aviator, Navigator, LS. The lineup looked so tight and together IMO. It's a shame Lincoln got kicked from the PAG and was left to suffer. The redesigns and lineup after that era left a LOT to be desired. Zephyr was a half baked attempt. Yeah it made way more money for Ford than the LS ever did but it cut so many features that the LS had and was nothing more than a Fusion rebadge. At least when it got renamed to MKZ it got a better engine but still missed a lot. That era that followed was a dark time for Lincoln.
I had an '01 LS and loved that thing. Agree, they still look good today when I occasionally see them on the road. I never understood the Mitsubishi Diamante comments--the LS looked far more Germanic and felt more solid (well, the doors at least - the creaky center console, not so much). Early 2000's Lincolns were a good era for design, and had the other PAG brands not stolen Lincoln's budget, I do agree they probably would have been more successful going into the later 2000's. I feel like Lincoln hit rock bottom around 2013 when the MKS and MKT were refreshed with that stupid baleen whale grille, and they continued to struggle for a few more years with the Max Wolff styling. Ironically, Max Wolff is the design director for China, so maybe that is why I don't like the newest Lincolns that are coming out.-
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On 7/10/2023 at 9:06 PM, Gurgeh said:
Just goes to show that style is so much in the eye of the beholder. I get what you are saying. For instance, I think the current Range Rover Sport's exterior style is timeless, clean and amazingly great in a wholistic way. Same with some of the classic Lincolns you mention. A few others I can think of? The Y2K VW Passat and the Acura TL from about the same era. They both looked carved out of a solid block into an understated work of art. But Tesla? The S has a great looking exterior, but all the rest, in my view, are over-the-top bland.
I just realized I started a thought with Tesla and apparently never finished it. What I was trying to say is I really don't care for Tesla's greenhouses (the X and Y have some pretty terrible proportions), but the S and 3 have a simplicity to them and a shape that still make them look pretty fresh despite being long in the tooth. They strip out all the unnecessary design elements and have some simple but strong body forms that make the car recognizable even if all the badges went away. Kind of like Porsche and others. The Lincoln Mark X and 2002 Continental Concepts did the same. That Continental concept is now over 20 years old and still looks modern, except perhaps the grille. Lincoln has such a rich heritage they could build from and still make it modern and elegant, and I think they were doing this well until recently...but it feels like they are taking a wrong turn again with the Chinese design language.
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While I'm not the biggest fan of Tesla, one thing they do that I wish more car companies would do is really refine the exterior styling. Their greenhouses
15 hours ago, matt6 said:Just adding on to what mustang84isu stated, I really liked the refined style Lincoln was headed in with the Continental and Navigator. In my eyes, they were becoming an American Volvo in terms of design. Now they are adopting cues from the Chinese models, the design language is headed towards something a bit more trendy.
And that is probably the biggest thing that bothers me. Lincoln has for most of its history been pretty timeless and not very trendy. With the exception of the late 50's and maybe the malaise era, they typically avoided superfluous details and design elements. The '61 Continental basically ended the era of tailfins and ushered in cleaner styling for all American automakers. That's one of the few times they were a trend setter, but it was a good one, and those Continentals are still held in high regard today.
I am hoping the shift to EV will help Lincoln, because it seems like EV almost makes designers reset in how they think about proportions and exterior design elements. A lot of the old hardpoints and compromises you have to make to fit an engine go away.
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On 5/24/2023 at 7:49 PM, Gurgeh said:
Starting in 2017 with release of the new Continental and followed in short order by the all-new Navigator, the updated MKX (the Nautilus), the Aviator and Corsair, Lincoln appeared to be making a serious move toward revitalization and sales were improving. But the new Continental never really caught on as much as many hoped and Lincoln never made an effort to update it. Then FMC decided to shut down all sedans in North America (pretending initially that Lincoln was excluded), and then further development of the line seemed to come to a screeching halt with the all-new Nautilus canceled (later revised for China and now being brought here) and then the Rivian-derived large flagship electric vehicle also canceled. So now Lincoln has just 4 vehicles, which almost became 3. We'll see if FMC actually plans another revitalization effort as the company moves along its electrification route. What Lincoln needs is a vision, fiercely competitive product (and more of them), and maybe an impressive halo sedan (or pretend large crossover with a sloped back and lower stance -- so yeah, pretty much a sedan). But all of that takes serious investment and an actual commitment to the brand. I'm not saying make stuff luxury buyers don't want; there's lots of product out there in the luxury field that does sell. FMC really needs to decide whether to compete full-on in the luxury space on a sustained basis. Just look how far and how fast Genesis has risen in the field. It is possible, but again it takes sustained commitment, a vision, great products and resources.
Back on topic, I'll be getting the 2024 Nautilus (I have a Black Label on order), which will be my second Lincoln. It is fine with me that the more powerful engine option is a hybrid, though I'd like it to have at least (and ideally more) power than the outgoing excellent twin scroll V6. I would really like to be able to avoid oversized wheels that Lincoln wants to forced me into; I may go as far as to buy my own and put them on. I wish it wasn't coming from China, but I understand the special circumstances that made this necessary at least as a stop-gap measure. If the Nautilus wasn't being brought over from China -- the only realistic option in the short term -- Lincoln would have lost me as a customer as I look to replace my 2019 Nautilus. I like the unique cabin configuration, with the smaller steering wheel and the sweep of screens above the wheel displaying driver information. Even with its recent problems, Lincoln continues to arguably have the best interiors in the business.
Agreed, Lincoln was looking really good around 2017-18. I have a '17 Continental, and there might be some bias, but I think it is one of the best designs Lincoln has had in many years even though it was a little watered down from the concept. Aviator was also very well done. They lost some momentum after the Continental was cancelled, then more when the MKZ ended production, and it just feels like they've been really flat-footed the last several years while Ford has come out with some hits such as the Bronco and Maverick that have helped bolster the lineup as sedans were cancelled. Lincoln sales were finally in an upswing pre-2020 where it looked like they might finally be catching up to Cadillac, but now looking at June 2023's numbers they were sub 7,000 in North America and again toward the bottom of the pack in the North American luxury market. It's pretty frustrating to see.
The styling became much more refined with the 2017 Continental and beyond, but I feel like the newest-generation that is adopting design cues from the Chinese models will not age well. It doesn't look upscale to me. They have fussy details like the vehicle badge "swoosh" on the side of the newest Chinese models that looks like an afterthought and doesn't need to be there. The grilles have also gotten more flat and lifeless. It kind of reminds me of the first gen MKZ, which looked pretty decent (despite being severely watered down from the Zephyr concept), and then the 2010-12 MKZ MCE had the weirdly proportioned split wing grille tacked on.I think the Star Concept is interesting. However, Lincoln has a problem of creating amazing looking concepts, but the production models ends up so watered down that they never seem to get the brand fully out of its rut...then the MCE is worse...then they have to "reinvent" themselves. We are seriously on the third or fourth design reinvention in 20 years.
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Not a fan if this is true. Lincoln has been doing a good job with minimal, clean styling in the US market, and the Chinese Lincolns add unnecessary styling elements that make it look downmarket. I've never been a huge fan of the chrome fender badges Lincolns have been sporting since 2017, but they could be worse....like the how the Chinese Zephyr takes it to the next level of gaudiness with a fender badge accent that spans 2/3 across the front door. Same with the chrome strip across the grille and the goofy lower air dams. The Lincoln Star concept is hopefully previewing a better direction...
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I saw a transport truck full of these stopped on the shoulder of I-80 in Iowa over Thanksgiving weekend. First time I've seen them in person...they haven't yet hit any neighborhoods around us.
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On 9/5/2022 at 7:51 PM, jasonj80 said:
It sums up Ford's good enough attitude for the US market - we have sales and if we lose a thousand customers that's okay its more profitable this way. The problem is a thousand becomes ten thousand which becomes a hundred thousand which becomes a million. Ford still thinks GM is there only competition in the market and looks to benchmark them exclusively for almost every market where they might slightly benchmark Ram for Pickups and Wrangler with the Bronco.
If I was in the market today with the equipment deletions and price increases I wouldn't have replaced my F-150 with another one. Ford is very shortsighted in their decision process.
To go back to the topic here, the Corsair was a great vehicle when it was launched a few years ago and has been gaining sales, but deleting the options that made it stand out and new competition in the market will customers continue to buy it? Lincoln will be waiting for the electric version in a few years it will be great but by then Audi/Mercedes/Genesis and Cadillac will be out with great product. The PIH is behind Lexus and Volvo in Range and price, so unless a significant upgrade happens in powertrain it will be behind. What is Lincoln going to offer that they don't already have?
We had a 2022 Edge SEL rental a couple months ago, and we also own a 2017 Edge Titanium so it was a good chance to compare the two back-to-back. Two things drove me nuts about the 2022: removal of the touch sensitive door handles at the rear doors (not sure if this was an SEL thing, or if Ford cost cutting did this on all models) and putting all HVAC controls on the navigation screen. I thought I previously heard that Ford got rid of the rear touch sensitive door handles for all Edges, which is something we use literally every day getting our child into the car seat. It's a small thing, but it's something that parents will notice when your hands are full with a child and diaper bag...and a repeat Edge buyer is likely going to notice its absence as well.As for the HVAC controls--not sure if that was cost cutting or just trying to copy Tesla with putting everything on the vertical display, but not having physical HVAC buttons was a huge annoyance in general. When you're driving in an unfamiliar area and fumbling around trying to figure out how to change the fan speed or change vent modes during rush hour traffic, you really get a feel for how bad of an idea losing physical buttons is. Compounding on that, I really didn't like the UI for Sync 4 in the '22 Edge vs. the Sync 3 UI in our Edge. We didn't have a lot of time to spend with it, but it seemed far less intuitive.
In a lot of ways, the 2022 felt like a step backwards. Not sure it would be on our list when we eventually replace our 2017.
FARLEY SAYS FORD EVS WILL HAVE ‘HYBRID PREMIUM’ PRICING
in E.V. Central
Posted
IMO, it needs to go even further than price parity with ICE. Initial cost is just one part of the equation of vehicle ownership, but then you also have maintenance, insurance costs, and even right to repair issues. Tesla's issues with high insurance rates and expensive repairs that force you to service it at Tesla service center are pretty well documented; I don't know how Ford or other OEM's are fairing, but it's something that will make the average consumer drag their feet even longer on EV ownership. Then there is battery safety; lithium batteries and thermal runaway are a real issue that will someday be resolved when solid state batteries replace them, but until then it might give potential buyers pause. And finally, resale value...current EV's are going to be worth little to nothing after 8 years or so because replacing the battery when it fails is too expensive for most to afford. I've seen some 2021 & 2022 Model 3 Long Range models going for $17-19K. That's like a 65% loss of value over 2-3 years. I'm seeing two & three year old Mach-E's with less than 30K that are for sale in the $25-28K range, which is about a 50% loss of value. That's crazy and will be a huge headwind for EV adoption by the mainstream buyer.
Manufacturers need to improve in all these areas to truly make a dent in ICE sales. Which is why I am glad that Ford is delaying EV's a bit and pushing hybrids in the interim.