7Mary3
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Posts posted by 7Mary3
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2 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:
So back to CARB and model year '25. This reg only includes class 6 and 7. So a 550 at 19,500GVW is exempt?
And while we keep referring to 650/750, an F-600 at 22,000 is also exempt?
The 600 and lighter F series trucks are still 2024 models. The 650 and 750 are now 2025MY, and that appears to be the problem with CARB. Same for Isuzu, they are now 2025MY also.
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32 minutes ago, iamweasel said:
On the Daimler side, they tell us that it's the date of the engine is what matters. You can't build an engine in Detroit on 1/1 and ship it to North Carolina to be installed in a truck that same day, you know? (DTNA also flipped to 25MY starting 1/1/24.)
So over the past 3 months theoretically you could have:
1) A 24MY truck with a 23CY engine
2) A 25MY truck with a 23CY engine (engine built a week or two before the year is over)
3) A 25MY truck with a 24CY engine
DTNA really goes out of their way to avoid #2. They don't want to have any gray-area issues with the EPA/CARB, so they will start to produce their 25CY emission engines late in 24CY and time-it so any truck rolling down the line in 24CY gets a 24CY engine. I have had a few oddball trucks over the years like item #2, though. Those situations only happened when there was a production/supply issue of some sort that messed up the timing.
Yes, that's been my understanding for years. No idea why 2025MY trucks with engines manufactured in 2024CY appear to be an issue now.
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A manufacturer can advance to the next model year any time after Jan. 1st.. Ford, Isuzu and some others have been doing this for some time. Not sure what the laws are regarding emission standards, it used to be the year of manufacture of the engine, not the truck. Somehow now the MY of the vehicle factors in. It appears the current 6.7L Powerstroke does not meet 2025 CARB standards, and that's why the diesel 650 and 750 will not be available in CARB states for the 2025MY. Certain 2025 Isuzu and Chevy trucks powered by the 4HK1 will not be available either. The 6.7L Cummins does comply with 2025 CARB regulations.
I have a feeling that if the 8.3L Duramax rumors are true (and the engine is a diesel) it is in response to upcoming CARB and EPA regulations.
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There are new rumors that GM (and probably Isuzu) are working on a new 8.3L Duramax diesel engine. No word yet if this engine will be for heavy duty pickups or commercial trucks, or both. The larger displacement may be in response to more stringent diesel emissions regulations, possibly a way to maintain current H.P./torque output while making the engine 'cleaner'. Interesting to note that the Isuzu 4HK1 and 6.7L Powerstroke will not be available in 2025 medium duty commercial trucks in CARB states.
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1 hour ago, rmc523 said:
Why can't they just keep the '24 MY going through the end of '24 and avoid it in the short term?
No idea. But Ford isn't the only truck manufacturer to advance the MY's of medium duty trucks.
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The 650 and 750 have been running a model year ahead, the 2024's were introduced first quarter 2023. The 2025's will be out shortly and that's what got Ford in trouble with CARB, as it appears the 6.7L Powerstroke does not meet 2025 CARB diesel emissions standards. Thus 2025 650 and 750 diesels cannot be sold in California. The 600 and lighter trucks get to keep the Powerstroke through 2024 as those trucks are 2024 MY.
Last I heard GM and Navistar still have not released a gas engine option for the Silverado Medium Duty/International CV. That is surprising considering all the rumors that the gas engine option was 'coming soon', and the GM 6.6L gas engine has been EPA and CARB certified for medium duty trucks. Isuzu and Freightliner currently offer in it several medium duties. One story I heard was that the gas 6.6L could not be teamed with certain Allison transmissions, but if true even that has been resolved.
Freightliner will have a gasoline Cummins 6.7L available in the M2 soon. I suspect Navistar will follow, and possibly even Isuzu in their larger F series will offer the Cummins gasser shortly.
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3 hours ago, Rick73 said:
RAM already has issues with Cummins diesel, so who will benefit most if Ford PowerStroke can’t meet emission requirements in 2025? Doesn’t that essentially leave GM Duramax, and how much cleaner than Cummins or Ford can they be? Shouldn’t we expect they will have similar difficulties?
Seems to me path of least resistance may be to switch buyers to gasoline engines, particularly if all three are in same predicament and no one has competitive advantage.
I don't think the Duramax is any better, it's just the 2025 CARB diesel standards are going to be difficult and expensive to meet. I believe that for the most part what is coming in 2025 in California will be similar to the 2027 EPA standard.
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Expect to see more of these kinds of stories, investigations are ongoing.....
BTW, Ford will not be offering diesel powered F-650 and 750 trucks in California after the first of the year, they are no longer CARB compliant. It's an interesting situation, from what I gather the 7.3L Powerstroke does not meet 2025 CARB diesel standards, so as the 650 and 750 will be 2025MY next year (2024) they cannot be sold in California. It sounds like F-250's through F-600's will still be 'CARB legal' next year because those trucks are 2024MY. It will be interesting to see what Ford does in 2025, not being about to sell diesel 650's and 750's is not a big deal but if they can't get the Powerstroke to comply for the other trucks that's going to hurt.
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4 hours ago, akirby said:
But that’s not the right question. The question is what would happen if they made Denali trims on Chevys. Same vehicle different badge. Don’t tell me gmc buyers would buy a ford or ram or Toyota instead. That makes no sense.Of course they wouldn't. It has a lot to do with the franchises. The GMC brand allows Buick and Cadillac dealers to sell premium trucks/CUV/SUV's, along with Hummers.
Since there really isn't any 'stand alone' Lincoln dealers anymore, it would make more sense for Ford to axe what's left of Lincoln than for GM to drop GMC. Not saying I would like to see it, but I'll bet it would be easy to make the case to dump every Lincoln except for the Navigator and simply sell them at Ford dealers as an upper trim level to the Expedition.
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26 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:
He axed the Mercury division when it was obvious at least a decade earlier it should be done. GM meanwhile still can’t figure out where GMC and Buick fit in their hierarchy. And don’t give me that Buick is big in China line, if they were serious about the Chinese market they would figure it out with another brand.No problem with GMC, it fits just fine and is very profitable. GMC dealers are handing Hummer exclusively as well. Buick actually has a long history in China back to the pre-WWII days, the brand has value there. GM has other brands in China too, like Wuling. Buick also manages to outsell Lincoln in North America.......
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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:
I wonder if some sort of turbo CNG set up is possible with the 6.7 Powerstroke,
or whether that is even viable now?
It may be easier to pursue forced induction with the 7.3, just a thought….
Remember that dual fuel high boost set up Ford was developing with MIT,
used E85 through the DI for detonation suppression and regular ULP through the PFI
Far easier to convert the 7.3L gasoline engine to CNG or propane (which upfitters already offer) than to convert the 6.7L Powerstroke.
The 2025 MY 650/750 diesel CARB sales restriction raises some interesting questions. First and foremost, will Ford be able to CARB certify the 6.7L Powerstroke for the 2025 F-250 through 600?
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Very true, no more diesel 650's or 750's in California starting next year. The Cummins-Isuzu partnership likely also had something to do with Isuzu going to Cummins for their class 6 and 7 trucks. Which BTW seem to be selling quite well here.
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2 hours ago, 40 Mile said:
Would be great to see these trucks in North America.
It would, but that's not going to happen.
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GMC division of GM started generating so much profit from upscale trucks and SUV's it made sense to focus on that highly profitable market and let Chevy dealers handle the commercial end.
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You guys forgot about the '03-'04 Mercury Marauder?
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The Ford N 'borrowed' a lot from the 1960 GMC B series (not the school bus, the '60-'65 short conventional). The GMC was a slightly better to work on, many used the 6V-71 Detroit and the fenders were very easy to remove. In 1966 GMC came out with an all-new heavy duty short conventional that had a tilt hood if the truck was 6-71 or Cummins powered. That truck eventually became the Brigadier. I agree, the U series Macks were probably the best of the short-nose breed. Some of the International Fleetstars and the Dodges with big Cummins power were miserable to work on, glad I never had to do touch them.
The truck in the video is a little strange. As Bob pointed out, it ought to be an N-1000D. Might not have shutters as Detroits were more 'warm blooded' than Cummins (a reason why Detroits were such great bus engines, the heaters worked well). Also I think 1967 was the first year Ford offered the 6-71, but I could be mistaken.
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Interesting video, gives an idea how tough some of the older short-nose diesel trucks were to work on. Amazing a Detroit 6-71 would fit in the N series, I heard the Cummins N series was even worse.
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1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:
What it boils down to is the US government/EPA sets one requirement and by law, California can set requirements that exceed those requirements.
But that also begs this question-how can a state that has outsized influence over the country place a requirement that would affect the other 49 states? I know something like 14-17 other states use CARB in some shape, but if a company sued and it went to the Supreme Court (which I'm going to assume this already happened too), but it makes an interesting constitutional powers case. Which is the States can set laws that are not already set by the Federal government.
Very simple, the California Air Resources Board existed long before the EPA did. Therefore CARB is free to set any standard they wish, as long is it is at least as stringent as the federal EPA standard. Other states are free to adopt either CARB or EPA standards as they wish. In the long run it really doesn't matter much, it's always a case of the EPA eventually adopting CARB standards.
I have often thought CARB must save the EPA a lot of effort in regards to vehicle emissions standards. All the EPA has to do is see what CARB does then enact that a few years later......
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2 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:
Here's the new standards (I think): https://dieselnet.com/standards/us/hd.php#lownox Not exactly simple...
That's it.
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3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:
From what I can see the Ban is on pre-2010 engines starting this year.
That covers drayage trucks, the trucks used at ports that generally speaking do not leave port areas. Port areas have particularly bad air quality due to diesel ships that run constantly while in port (burning bunker oil). There is a big push to electrify drayage trucks, which is feasable given they don't go very far and are always close to recharging facilities.
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56 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:
When you refer to it as.."650/750 diesel sales ban" I thought it was a class 6/7 diesel sales ban?? Not specific to the 6.7
It appears to be specific engines that can't meet the 2025 CARB regulations. For example, It looks like the Cummins 6.7L will meet the 2025 standard while the Isuzu 4HK1 does not. This is the first I have heard that the 6.7L Powerstroke may not meet the regulations, assuming that is the reason Ford isn't selling the 650/750 in California for 2025. The 450/550/600 is another question, but if those trucks will be 2024 MY until the end of the calender year I would think they would continue to be available in CARB states at least until 2025. Maybe Ford will eventually come up with an update for the 6.7L Powerstroke to meet 2025 CARB requirements, again assuming that is the reason the engine will not be offered in California.
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I wonder if the 2025 MY 650/750 diesel sales ban in California will include the other CARB states.
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2 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:
I thought the diesel ban in CA and Oregon was effective in '25??
It's not a diesel ban, it's the next round of more stringent diesel emissions regulations. If I am not mistaken, I think the 2025 CARB standards will be adopted by the EPA nationwide in 2027.
Since the 2025 650 and 750 go on sale 1st. quarter of 2024 I believe they still have to meet 2025 emissions standards. Wonder why Ford is starting the 2025MY so early for the 650 and 750 when they can sell the current diesels in California until Dec. 31 2024. Does not make any sense.
Cummins seems to have the technology to meet the new standards, even though they will have a gasoline version of the 6.7L on the market next year. I wonder if GM and Navistar will be able to certify the Duramax for the JV medium duty for 2025.
New Light & Medium Duty News
in Ford Motor Company Discussion Forum
Posted
Yeah, I'm wondering what happens in 2025 for Ford too. No idea what GM/Navistar is up to, there were a lot of rumors about a class 7 and gas engines before Covid, but since they seem to be content with what they have. There has been very few updates to those trucks since introduction.