S.Knight

Guilty as charged...I am dumb as a stump. Maybe you can help me out. What are your cost projections for your hypothetical(fantasy) oil exploration venture...?

Wonderful debate technique. Ask stupid... inane... unanswerable questions. Then when someone tries to answer them... tell them they didn't answer them and ask again.

I think I found the one place those worthless internet IPO's and California real estate can be sold... Some people will never learn.

Log in...I sent you a PM. As for adaptation to marketplace conditions... Who could have expected a continued downturn like this? I mean sure the big three are at fault for the original non adaptation to market conditions(first round of plant closure pain...in which the lives of us EAP personnel were sent into turmoil). They can't be blamed for this run-up of fuel prices and the mortgage fiasco led recession. They are adapting to the currently changing market conditions... but are totally dependent on the end of this economic downturn to right this ship. Hopefully it will end quickly and we can settle into a nice long bull cycle where we will get to tell all those youngbloods our tales of woe...

I wouldn't rule out taking shifts away(temporarily). In KC particularly, it makes sense to lose a shift on the 150 side and move it to Escape production. When the economy, and thus sales for the 150, responds the shift could be returned. What could be better to Ford and the employees of KC, is that if Escape sales remain strong responding to the return of 150 sales with the hiring of a new shift of lower tier wage employees to fill it. Thus running a three shift operation of Escapes and two 150 shifts.

Look for Ford to make a move which will allow them to temporarily reduce production of the 150. This has been the #1 selling vehicle and the backbone of our company for years. The sales of this vehicle are very recession sensitive(used by contractors). If Ford makes a move which permanently reduces the ability to make these truck instantaneously when the economy inevitably rebounds... we have given up the core of this company and its over.

You are missing the real effect this high price of crude will have on demand. As we plainly see people are moving in droves away from inefficient vehicles, reducing the distance they drive, carpooling, looking for alternatives to oil products. The high price also creates incentive for alternatives to oil use to be produced. What people really miss in this argument is that the only reason that oil is used to fill our needs in the first place... is because of its low cost. It's not that the technology to produce alternatives isn't possible to develop... it's just, at low oil prices not efficient(profitable) to develop them. Each day oil trades at these elevated levels gives reason(profits for producers) for the development of the alternatives. While oil doesn't grow on farms...I think farmers will argue their corn crops are doing a mighty job lowering our dependance on it.(ethanol)

On further review I guess my response was a little harsh. I realize that there are two sides of the argument and of course you are entitled to your opinion(as wrong as it is... ) Its just the side you were addressing has no historic president and the people perpetuating those fears are undoubtedly the ones profiting from its spread.

Do you always use federal government propaganda generating news organizations for your news stories? You have to at least try to balance your argument a little. I mean their web site touts a section to teach "american english" to its users. I did a search on their web site to find an article that talked about the decrease of consumer consumption of oil in the last few months and there wasn't one. In every main stream publication I have read recently there are tons of stories about how americans are adapting to high prices by changing consumption patterns. I mean this thread is devoted to one. And just for the sake of argument...do you know of any other commodities which have escalated in price to a degree like this and haven't come down in time? People always change their consumption and prices always come down.

Why would you think gas prices won't come down? I bet you thought internet stocks and home prices had reached a "permanently high plateau"(one of the greatest quotes of all time by Irving Fisher) as well. Here is an article which may add a little light as to why you shouldn't always buy into the fear that is being peddled to you... http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/06/news/econo...dex.htm?cnn=yes

I wouldn't worry about guys like this. I find it ironic that he is spiting himself. He is doing everything within his small globe of influence to block these inevitable transfers... which will only serve to delay or permanently block his eventual return to the trades. These guys did what they determined at the time to be in their best interests. They chose to break their classifications to stay close to home and don't like the end results. The placement hierarchy of the UAW dictates he now must wait until we are placed. He thinks the local has picked up his cause, when in truth, what they are really attempting to do is protect the overtime of the workers currently in trades. If the IUAW or company was to allow the local to circumvent the placement protocol... I can't imagine the tremendous amount of litigation which would spring from that mistake. I know people from all over the country that have broken their classifications and returned to production capacities. Each of these people would instantly have grounds to demand a return their skilled classifications. I understand the disappointment he,and all those who broke must feel, they now realize they made a tremendous blunder breaking their classifications...But if they took a minute to think the problem through... they would realize their fight, against those scheduled to come to KC, is weakening the chance they will ever return to their skilled trade jobs.

The only thing I believe... is that monday you will be putting parts on the truck...or are you an electrician?...Which one was it?...You mysteriously disappeared when your own posts proved you to be a liar.

It has been proposed here on BON within the last week, that any deficiencies in the dissemination of information at the local level, are the fault of it's members. It seems...it's your fault for not going to monthly meetings and demanding that it be fixed. Read about it in the thread entitled: For the desk of Bob King...

So... I guess if your gonna prove yourself to be a liar... you might as well be a vindictive liar...

Has someone been exposed as a fraud? Have their own words comeback to betray them? Nice sleuthing Twincam...

I agree that executive compensation is excessive... but, do you want to work for the wages that autoworkers in Argentina or Mexico make? I mean that would really help us be competitive...

I guess I'll take... not. Sounds to me like you are an unfortunate soul trying to get back in the trades.

I don't think anyone in KC or anywhere else is listening to you. ..

Did you hear anything about the other St. Louis trades?

I understand the importance of not allowing the international to trample on the rights of local autonomy.... I agree with you on the importance of that. But, the international has dictated much of the framework of the locals via our constitution. My argument is that the provisions for information flow... should stem from there, instead of allowing the work of the locals, or lack thereof, to control it. As for Mr. King's leadership.... I do not in any way dispute what you say... in fact... my post counts on it.

Thats true... but the question is to whose detriment? Do I have more to offer him, by way of out of the box ideas, or does he have more to offer me through a bound up bureaucratic structure? I guess that really is the very heart of the controversy.

Leaving it up to the locals is the reason we don't have a unified system and a clear flow of information. Surely you can see that leaving the decision in the locals hands is the reason they are not doing it. I mean the system is broken... thats why you are here answering questions... right? This is an area where the ball is being dropped and the members of the international need to pick it up. Unifying the flow of information through the system will keep members from being left behind. Some of our locals are doing a great job with their sites many are not.

Here a solution to the informational void.... 1) Require, with internationals help, that all locals have a web site up and operational by the end of year. 2) Web site must have the ability for members to ask questions. 3) Answers must be answered in timely fashion and posted for all to see on site. 4) Monthly...International will submit to locals for posting a review of the issues we are facing as a collective. And articles devoted to education of the labor movement.

This thread got kind of hijacked in the beginning and is starting to focus on one idea( the need for an international forum). I agree wholeheartedly that the membership is stuck in an informational void, which needs to be addressed by international. The fact that international reps are here answering questions shows that they agree. The question is how can we respect the hierarchy of our system while ensuring that the members of local unions are getting the information they desperately crave. Now the reason I started this thread was to try to show how much our cause is suffering from its top down structure. And how much we could benefit by having information and ideas flow up as well. Key to having that work will be the way in which questions are brought to the membership, and most importantly, the way debate is handled. Correct me if I am wrong, but most of our international reps have come from plants after persevering long political careers. These guys are hardened politicos and are used defending their positions from attacks from opposing parties within their own local. Well I’m sorry, but that really isn’t the best way to develop a firm embrace of the ideas of others. In the system you came from …listening to others might mean your job come election time. What I would recommend to Mr. King is that he assigns someone the task of asking open-ended questions, with the sole function of stimulating debate… not controlling it. And we definitely don’t want to have someone defending the current positions of the international…. we are looking for the ideas outside the box. After a short time it will become clear who has something to offer. Correspond with these people through mass emails. Ask them questions. It doesn’t have to be inside classified stuff. You could ask… “ What are some of the pitfalls you see from the union management of a VEBA”… “how do you think lowering the base rate of wages will affect worker harmony within plant”…”How could we improve our organizing activities” The idea is that drawing from a much more diverse pool of experience might provide better options to you. Options that might otherwise escape the small like minded group you’re surrounded by.

I'll believe that if it is still the consensus opinion friday... the day after the election.