RougeWelder

It was not "taken" away numnuts. We "gave" concessions so Ford could survive. If you don't like the disparity, YOU should not have accepted the job. With the next down cycle coming up within 3-5 years, Ford will again adjust production personnel. But you have no idea what that means. Guess who will be applying for unemployment? I am knowledgeable enough to know that your greed and disrespect for tier 1 guys is not applicable to all tier2 people. As far as your advice for me to quit if I don't like what I "GAVE" not "TAKEN AWAY" : I have too much seniority. 4 years and I retire. Don't even think that someday tier2 will be able to reject pension/benefits given to tier1 personnel because by that time, if you are still a ford employee, your greedy ass will have been bumped to tier1 status and with your selfish nature, will be thinking of your own pension/benefits. In fact, if you can handle your production job long enough, YOU will be voting to increase MY pension/benefits because you know you will be receiving them in 40 years when you retire. I will thank you in advance for your yes vote that you still have no idea that you will eventually cast for ME. FYI...I make much more that $28 per hour and don't have to do brain dead work anymore as you do now. I advanced myself above assclowns like you and got off the line. Plus, you put a shitstain on other hardworking production employee's who are respected by the higher seniority production people and tradesmen. Just to clarify myself so you don't misinterpret.......most .tier2 people are hard working and respected. They will work long enough to be bumped to tier1. In fact, I think they should all be brought up to tier1 status THIS contract as long as tier1 is taken care of first because of our concessions. FYI : I worked for 12 yrs as an electronic engineer in the medical field before I came to ford. I state that so you don't think I am not knowledgeable about working outside of the auto industry, being non-union employee, or have no other options. I am looking forward to your immature and ignorant response because your insecurity of making less than the guy next to you amuses me.

I have read alot of your posts on many different threads on this sight. You only think of yourself and insult anyone who thinks about the big picture. You have what, maybe 5 years at ford and have already gotten a raise because of tier 1 people. When you accepted your job at ford, did you know about the pay disparity or was it a surprise? I bet you knew. Quit your child like whining and accept tier 2 jobs exists because tier 1 allowed it when our company was trying to survive(fact). If you don't like the reality of your situation, then quit and go back to your job which you said paid you more money. FYI...majority of tier 1 wants tier 2 brought up to tier 1 scale but also wants a piece of fords profits due to our concessions. Not one of your posts acknowledge what tier 1 gave up. But you constantly post that you want more.THAT IS GREED. I would love to read your post 12 years from now if your wage stayed at what it is today and the new tier 3(cleaners and non-production jobs) demanded tier 2 forgo raises so tier 3 could get a pay raise.

OK...math......if you hired at Ford at 18 yrs old and work till your 58, that is 40 yrs....not 30yrs. that is more realistic than retiring after 30yrs. when you would be 48yrs. old. Just how many people do you know that have retired comfortably at age 48? I sure hope you do not moonlight as a financial planner. Check the batteries in that calculator one of a kind.

That is your option. By the way, don't forget to wipe off the handle of my shopping cart

Ahhhh.....to be young and naive again. 30yrs. and out? Possible, but very, very unlikely. Everybody would like to call it quits after working only 30 years. It appears you have not yet been slapped with the reality of life grasshopper. So you would like us to believe that you put your profit sharing and overtime pay into an account that you will not touch until retirement so you have a nice little nestegg plus your TESPHE to retire on? If you retire at age 48, do you think the car you bought at age 44 and is now paid off will last you until you are 70yrs old? And at the young age of 48yrs., do you really want to be a minimum wage earner at walmart greeting people at the door to earn spending money instead of making $25/hr. on the line?

I know IUAW people read the subject matter on this site. Would any of you like to comment on the validity or the ridiculousness of hiring a Public Relations firm to enhance the public's perception of us? Most people on here are open minded and can accept legitimate responses as to how this idea would help or hinder UAW members. What we cannot accept is some politically correct response that sidesteps the question. And trust me, we all can tell the difference.

I am not talking about a "PR guy"......I am talking about a PR firm that will run a national campaign to promote the UAW worker and improve the way the public perceives the union. That is what they do and they are good at it. A good example would be the oil industry. Look at the BP oil spill vs the Exxon Valdez disaster. That is 210 million gallons(BP) of oil vs 20 thousand gallons(Exxon Valdez). Due to public relations campaign, BP, for the most part came out smelling like a rose. Even though Hayward(BP CEO) was asked to step down, years later he was given awards for his leadership and received an honorary degree from a university. Generally, the public perceives BP oil as an environmentally friendly company.

I am not really sure how it works. I know there were people hired into production(after I passed test) and then took the trades test 2 yrs. after I passed it and were placed into trades before I was. In the building I did production, 2 guys(with union affiliations) got placed into trades. The rest of us had to wait almost 4 yrs. to get into the apprenticeship program while newer hires in different plants were placed before us. The only thing that makes sense is that our building "locked" us out. After that 4 yrs. of waiting, all of us(10 -15)got placed within 6 months. Again, not sure if that was the reason, but being locked out by our building management is only thing that makes sense.

Not sure if this is the problem, but I know that each site can refuse to let production people go to apprenticeship program due to staffing deficiencies which would hinder the production or goals of the plant in question.

Dude......there never has and never will be one person who solely makes decisions for the U.S. I guarantee Grant had advisers that weighed in on any major decision. Furthermore, this ridiculous conversation comparing presidential alcoholics to plant chairmen is totally absurd. How many of these presidents had 3 DUI's? There is no way for you to convince me that this chairperson, with a drinking problem, is in charge of his faculties at all times to make consistently good decisions. My opinion comes from experience, not assumptions. I was lucky enough to change my ways and am able to see how ridiculous my way of thinking was when I was out of control....much like this chairperson is. I will not respond to any more of your ridiculous assertions so reply to this post with your warped line of thought for the entertainment of anyone else reading this thread

Dude......there never has and never will be one person who solely makes decisions for the U.S. I guarantee Grant had advisers that weighed in on any major decision. Furthermore, this ridiculous conversation comparing presidential alcoholics to plant chairmen is totally absurd. How many of these presidents had 3 DUI's? There is no way for you to convince me that this chairperson, with a drinking problem, is in charge of his faculties at all times to make consistently good decisions. My opinion comes from experience, not assumptions. I was lucky enough to change my ways and am able to see how ridiculous my way of thinking was when I was out of control....much like this chairperson is. I will not respond to any more of your ridiculous assertions so reply to this post with your warped line of thought for the entertainment of anyone else reading this post

all of those u listed had dozens of people advising them on all decisions they made. I have no doubt that those advisers made sure these men did not make decisions that would affect many people while their thinking and decision making process was hindered from foggy thoughts

Powerful men with fidelity issues(apples) vs alcoholics(oranges)

Wow...being a neutral voice in this post, I think luigi has a point. Long ago, I used to party alot and hung out with potheads, alcoholics, pill poppers, etc.. A person with 3 dui's in 5 yrs. definitely has a problem. If that person is in a leadership position, it is no doubt a bad thing. Being an alcoholic, his decision making changes with the wind, depending on the level of his hangover, problems at home, etc., etc.,. Drinkers are without a doubt in a click with their own kind. For the most part, they can not make unbiased, intelligent decisions. An alcoholic should NOT be in a leadership position.

If you think about it, if you got hired out of high school at age 18 and worked 30 yrs with ford, you would only be 48yrs old. I think that is too early and unrealistic for most people. I think 40-50 years in the workforce is the norm. What makes people work past retirement age are people who got divorced later in life, taking care of grandchildren, or any other curve ball life has thrown at them. There is the very small percentage of people who just don't have anything better to do. FYI....working 40+ years at Ford or any other place IS an accomplishment. Your comment that it is not is an indicator of your youth, naivety, or Ford is your first and only work experience. Also, refer to posts #82 by MTP'er and #85 by Decker above.

Yes it would. Hell, they could make one of those reality shows with all the drama and useless energy they exert. I think it would be a big hit.

my idea is to hire a professional private public relations firm to accurately portray the autoworker. not some under qualified union rep assigned to the pr dept that got his job by being a union puppet.

With contract negotiations starting, I believe a PR campaign would benefit the membership and anyone else that produces a product that allows their company to rake in huge profits. I am aware that this would be costly, but I think members would not mind a few million $$$ spent on informing the public the reality of working at an automotive facility and the impact our wages and benefits have on just about every job market. With just about every large corporation posting huge profits and all the ridiculous $$$, benefits, and bonuses given to top level personnel, the fact that the cost of labor is handcuffing corporate growth should be brought to light as ridiculous propaganda spewed by companies to alter public opinion. All of the "bad" things said about us goes unchallenged. The public will hear about an isolated incident and then believe that it applies to all. Heck, the public believes auto workers are lazy, do nothing, and sleep all day. We all know that is just not true, yet it is allowed to be put out there, unchallenged. It never occurs to the general public that if all autoworkers did nothing and slept all day, how do we produce so many quality cars and trucks? The reason for this, unfortunately, is that the general public believes what they hear. For that reason, I believe our side needs to be put out there. Not in the format of a few smiling workers in a commercial, but in a format that truly shows the hardship of the labor force and also points out the responsibilities companies have to the people that produce their product and the communities that surround them. I realize this will spur many sarcastic responses, but does anyone else think a massive PR campaign on our behalf could change public opinion? With the billions of dollars in UAW coffers, would $100 million for a PR campaign be wasted?

I remember a time when the ridiculous compensation given to the upper level positions was rationalized and sold to the general public by saying "top dollar must be paid to attract and hold top talent". Now that there is huge disparity between people who hold the same title at different companies with comparable profits, there is NO reason offered.....it is just the way it is. Oh yeah....paying top dollar was not enough to keep Mulally on board, it just allowed him to demand more than the $22million/year he got at Ford from his next sucker...I mean employer

Hmmm....paying $28/hr to a high seniority cleaner who doesn't clean vs $28/hr to a parts assembler who must assemble parts for Ford vehicles??? Just "my" opinion but replacing the hard working assembly worker bothers me much more than re-assigning a do nothing cleaner. Cleaners did not lose their jobs, they just got re-assigned. I also could care less if you disagree with me but paying a janitor an assemblers wage and who does not clean is a waste of money. If you respond by telling me how hard Ford cleaners used to work, I will know you did not work at Ford during that time.

FYI....you contradicted yourself in one sentence. You specifically state that "especially" jobs(cleaners and part certifiers) that used to be ours and got outsourced should be considered 3rd tier but the outsourced jobs at parts/plants that used to ours and used to be Ford plants are not???? I don't see the difference between the two. Both "used to be" our(Ford) jobs. Now they are operated by someone else paying less $$$ and benefits.

Man....you just don't get it. I never said "all" tier1 is fighting for "tier2 raises" this contract. that is ridiculous. In fact, I don't think tier2 should get raises this contract either unless tier2 is totally abolished and brought up to tier1 compensation. I also believe tier1 should definitely get a significant raise, especially after voting yes for raises for people with only 2-3yrs on the job last contract while not getting one for ourselves. That alone proves what we think of tier2....that your initial compensation was unfair. What I was trying to get across was the majority of tier1 is fighting to eliminate tier2 and make them equal to tier1. We do not like our workforce being split with tier1 workers and tier2 workers. The union was created on the foundation of "UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL". Well, the IUAW divided us and we don't like it. You will never get "all"(100%) of people to agree on anything. The fight to equalize all of us must continue. Equalization will not happen this contract and probably not even the next, but we can not just let it go. The main reason for my post is I don't care for the way you disrespect tier1 people for their compensation and your absurd way of thinking that we feel we are better than tier2 employees. If equalization of tier2 to tier1 compensation was put to a vote to the membership today, I guarantee it would pass. 100%???? no way....would it pass???? without a doubt. This is the last time I will respond to your ungrateful comments. I suggest you appreciate what you have and also appreciate what others are doing on your behalf. If you still think we are greedy for the compensation we fought and bargained for over the decades, greedy for fighting for a bigger slice of the pie, greedy for giving up compensation so Ford can survive and still profit, you can kiss my a$$. I am done trying to get you to understand. With that said, no matter what your response or what you think, I will still fight for your equalization. How is that for greed?

OK.....after a lengthy response to tier2's posts(which you should read), the post you replied to was for his/her non-response to a question I asked in my previous post to the one you replied to. If I was unemployed, I would definitely accept a tier2 position at Ford. What I would not do is bash or in your words "tear down" our brothers and sisters that were responsible for my hiring. Nor would I blame them and hold a grudge for my lesser compensation and call them greedy for the compensation they are given. If I was hired as a tier2, I would know that I would be working next to someone making much more than me and deal with it, not think they were greedy. Instead of working with a chip on my shoulder, I would talk with them and find out tier1 is fighting to abolish the 2 tier payscale. I would understand this will not happen overnight but appreciate what they have given up and also appreciate they are fighting for my equalization. By the way......the job market is now thriving and the economic outlook is very good. Corporations are making money hand over fist(google it) at the expense of under-compensated employee's. Since we bargain for our compensation and cannot be fired for no reason because of our contract, we can demand proper compensation instead of just taking what they are willing to give us. Others do not enjoy this luxury because of the right-to-work laws put in place by the political group(republicans) who enjoy the so called contributions of large corporations which seek to enhance their profits on the backs of their workers. They would prefer to spend frivolously on their own compensation, benefits, and bad judgements than to compensate their workers properly.

These are the posts which initiated my responses. Never did I reply that your lifestyle is terrible. The point I was trying to make was your dissent with tier 1 employees. I will respond to each of these posts one by one.... 1st....Tier 1 allowed the creation of tier2 employees because of the hard times auto companies were in at that time. It was one of the reasons Ford did not need government help. Tier1 gave concessions that allowed you to be hired plus gave up other compensation that allowed Ford Mtr. to survive in hard times. If we rejected tier2 hiring, we would still have a job, you would not. We rightfully complain about not having a raise in over 10 years after allowing tier2 hiring and then voting you a raise 2 yrs later while still not getting one for ourselves. And you want to call us greedy for wanting a raise in this contract while fighting to get rid of tier2 and making you equal to tier1 compensation?? 2nd....We are fighting that they abolish tier2 and make them equal to tier1. Do you really think tier1 should allow our compensation to be reduced to tier2 levels? You want to call us a joke because of the compensation we have earned and fought for over the years is more(not double) than yours? Your post comes across that you feel you are under compensated now that you have lived the job.....well we agree and are fighting to do away with tier2. Yet you say we are greedy??? When you accepted the job(i would have to if i was unemployed) you knew you would be working next to people who made more, so why the insults??? 3rd....You should be grateful toward tier1 people who voted for and allowed you to be hired. Plus it is YOUR fault for accepting a job which is under-compensated, not tier1 for making what they do. Also refer to "2nd" above. 4th....We already voted a raise for tier2 without getting one ourselves. Was that greed? We believe tier2 should be equally compensated to tier1. Is that greed? Wanting a raise after more than 10yrs while giving concessions which reduced our compensation while Ford got through tough times and now makes billions....is that greed? If you had 15-20yrs, would you be ok with that? Be honest. 5th....This post just shows how naive you are with your expectations in the ways corporations do business. Corporations never, and I mean never, do what is right. They do what they can get away with. What exactly did you expect them to do this contract? 6th....You don't want a pension????? Are you nuts? A pension is a legit benefit a company pays an employee to compensate them for working a lifetime for them and allowing them to profit from their hard work and battered bodies.Then you make reference to two companies who's upper management and board members stuffed their pockets and embezzled hundreds of millions of dollars, got caught and went to jail and screwed it's employee's. That was an isolated incident to a few corporations, not the norm. Are you putting the Ford's in the same category as the Skillings, Ken Lay's, and Bernie Madoff's? I don't think so. 7th....Your arrogance comes through with this one. With your self-righteous, and ignorant statement of a unit versus one share of Ford stock. One unit of Ford stock in TESPHE is equal to approximately one third of a share. One unit is not equal to one share. 8th....I never said your lifestyle is terrible. The point I am trying to make is that your anger and dissent toward tier1 is misguided. The job and income you currently enjoy should be attributed to tier1 employee's. It is tier1 employee's which are fighting to equalize compensation and abolish tier2 classification. The majority of tier1 do not look down on tier2 people because of your lesser compensation. The majority really want to do away with second tier. If you feel you are being looked down on, or treated less than a tier1 guy, it is because(being brutally honest here) of your low seniority. You will have to deal with that your entire career at Ford. With my measly 21yrs at Ford, I still have to deal with that from people that have more time than me. Do not take it personally, it is mostly good natured ribbing. Sorry for the lengthy post but had to explain the point I was trying to make.

yup.....just as I thought. A youngster who is "just happy to have a job". Keep thinking that way and you will soon reach the upper level of lower class earners.