newworld

Would you agree then to let the market dictate wages? If the market is good enough for them then you have to agree it's good enough for us. My problem with the market setting wages is that it does not always reflect the effort/work involved. If we let the market dictate our wages would it be a true measure of our effort. It's more than just "2 totally different things". It's many. Nothing drives me more crazy than someone saying I don't deserve a middle class living because I did not go to college. You know what I'm talking about, friend. Likewise I will leave the wages of others up to others, my opinion to myself, because I know what it's like. I say whatever they can get, more power to 'em. They are not likely to get $15 but that's not for me to say no more than it is for others to say what we deserve. And be sure I'm not comparing their effort to what we do, no more than I'm saying they need to be paid the same as us. $28 an hour compared to $15 an hour. There is a difference, almost double., And please understand, no one is saying they need to make a middleclass living. Just maybe enough to get them off public assistance, which many are. Have you been to a Walmart of McDonalds lately, it's rarely kids anymore. Hell, the kid's today can barely find work because of all the adults taking these low wage jobs today.

Fast Food workers getting $15 an hour? Well, I say let them try. If the market will bare it, then I'll be happy for them. If not, then they will probably be automated out of thier jobs. It's their risk, not mine. Their choice, not mine. I say more power to them. I am willing to pay, what I'm willing to pay. No one will force me to buy thier products if it makes them too expensive. I have heard though that $15 an hour McDonalds workers would cause a Big Mac to rise from $3 to $3.50. I will reserve my right to pay it. (I probably would.) In other words, why does it upset so many? It's the same crap I hear when the UAW negotiates $28-$32 for my job. If Ford's get to expensive, then they don't have to buy them. It's our risk to go after such wages. I would say though, given some of the work that I know that pay's $15 an hour, that they would be in for alot more competion for those jobs, So it's not just automation they risk.

The same reason you support a "factory worker" making $28 an hour. Or a tradesman making $32. In relative terms, yea. Alot of people say the same about us, right? How dare you ask such a question.

Our 2nd tier contract provisions are not unique. These kind of contracts have been around since the 80's. The UAW has resisted them, for good reason. Up until recently they have not had to cave to these divide and conquer tactics. It's a desparate move to save existing member compensation positions. A sellout of the next generation to save the current. Too many of us use the excuse that "they knew when they came in" as an out. This makes it fair? The unions that have taken these 2 tier contracts have never recovered thier 2nd tier even during good times. They tend to, over time, be baked into the future. These contracts have mostly led to a gradual decline in overall wages and benefits for ALL workers over time. Using the historical experience of other unions, these contracts do not bode well for ALL UAW members. Given the structural changes taken place in the economy this may not just be a temporary fluke, but a permanant condition. Will we ever regain what we had? Not with out a fight. A fight That the international may not be up to. A fight that the membership may not be up to. In other words........Not likely.

Our leaders are in a desprite situation and need to start thinking outside the box. They lack the leadership skills needed for these very trying times. They are use to the old world way's, like many of us, and are at a loss for the modern solutions needed. They may have also givin up, thinking the best way is to, simply prolong and hang on until a new generation comes up. We need a younger group, and perhaps a leadership from outside the Auto Industry to see the forest beyond the tree's. Not likely to happen givin the where and how we get leadership. Look what an outsider has done for Ford. I'm not optimistic. The only thing that can turn it around is a labor shortage, unemployment below 4%. Not likely, not at all. But then who would have predicted the 90's after what we went through in the 80's.

I have tradesmen inlaws outside the auto industry, in other regions of the country, who are now in the mid to upper $40's per hour. "Some" (not all) see regular layoff's, though, with no sub. With our competition the big 3 could never pay that kind of money. However, when you factor in the Big 3 profits today....our time has come. It's time for a raise AND reinstatng COLA.

This comment proves my point, divide and conquer, it's working. You speak like it's us versis them. It's time we all started working on our plan B's, or personal back-up plans. With no solidarity we're a lost cause.

The big question though is what are us 1st tier willing to do to make it happen. Would you walk the picket line for your younger brothers, sons, co-workers? Are we all in this together or will we continue to let the company divide to conquer? That's what they are doing, it's in their long term play book. Labor consultants have been advising companies since the 80's to take this tac with unions. And it's always been sucessesful. If the history of organized labor in recent years is any indication, this may well be the beginning of the end for us.

What do 2 tier labor contracts and The Affordable Care Act (Obama Care) have in common? They both take from the young and give to the old. 2nd tier, younger workers work for less so older workers don't have to take cuts. Younger people are forced to, and are needed to, buy insurance to lower the cost of older sicker folks. Eliminate pensions for young people so as to protect the benefits older workers. Think about it and everywhere you turn around the young are making sacrifices for us old farts. Could this create a new Generation Gap? A financial one? Is it proof Seniors vote and young people don't? Will economic growth give our young people the same opportunities we had, or are we looking at the biggest ponzi scheme in American history? P.S. I'm over 50

One way to encourage transparency is to hold them accountable no matter what. If the locals cannot prove they resisted bad decisions or voted in poor leaders then they are out.PERIOD It's the only way. Make them prove it. When the international visits your local, do they cave to them, suck up to them, or debate them and question them. Do they ask "why", "NO WE disagree", etc..etc.. Do they speak out in public, against decisions that they and thier membership don't like? (newspapers, online forums, social media, etc..etc.) The only way to insure a democratic union is to make sure we the membership are heard, and the local is the most efficient way to voice your opinion. If a leader cannot prove he communicated membership positions to the international........Then they re out. PERIOD! This does not mean I am against a dues increase or for one.. It's complicated. I don't think a membership that has gone as long as we have without a raise, made significant concessions, should be seeing our union dues go up, not now.......However, a bankrupt Union does not serve us either. I don;t have enough information to really have an opinion as yet.

YES, .........Key 3 words....."DIRECTLY THAT IS" Local officials need to know that their interactions with the international are being watched. They are the link between the rank and file and the international and must be held accountable for the internationals dictates.

and if we are not carefull, all of us could be in for a rude, difficult reality.

I think I'll just pass on this one.................No to a DUES increase!!!!!!!

Well said, I can see it all as a way, to free all employers eventually. And some without raising wages to cover it. A transition that could take a decade or 2 but still something to think about. A major con job on the working class, one of many to come........if we let it happen.

Fair point. However I believe the Supreme court ruled that this mandate to be a tax. You do not "have to " buy insurance. If you choose not to you will have to pay a fine, this fine is what the Supreme court considered a tax. You have to pay taxes. But, I will give you that. A mandate is a mandate. Maybe the Goverment should not force you to buy insurance. Maybe a better solution would be to allow citizens to opt out. BUT if you choose to opt out, and have a heart attack or have cancer you will be on your own. No hospital should be forced to treat you until you pay upfront Ok? No more letting your fellow citizens bare the risk. By opting out you will take full responsibility, period. The problem with this concept is that some will agree...........until they get sick. Or, and this is usually the case, the ones who bitch the most about this mandate are the ones who don't have to worry about the mandate, such as a Ford worker who gets his Healthcare insurance through his employer. This forum is not here to Debate public policy. My only Ford related concern here was why do you, a Ford UAW covered worker, feel you may be forced off your employer/Ford sponsored insurance because of "Obama Care". I to have issues with the affordable care act. But this is not the forum to air them. sorry Blue Oval. P.S. The fine for those not insured is very low relative to the cost of insurance or the cost that fellow citizens incur when the uninsured seek healthcare.

Explain your fears. Are you afraid of contract concessions that will make you pay for your own insurance? And what would any of that have to do with the Affordable Care Act. Please explain what it is about the Affordable Care Act that you are afraid of . I will tell you that I'm not a fan of the Affordable care act because I feel it was a sell out to the insurance industry. What are your concerns? Should YOUR employer Ford, have to just continued to subsidise the healthcre for the uninsured (example: Walmarts grossly uninsured who run to the emegency room everytime they need to see a doctor where the costs are spread out to all paying hospital patients) . All of our main foriegn competitors, Japan, Germany, most of Europe, etc etc. Have goverment involved universal health care. (The only equalizer is most of these competitors build in the U.S.). So, what specifically are your concerns? Your fears? or your disagreements with "Obama Care". As I have said, I to have issues with it. I feel it did not go far enough and was a sellout to the insurance industry lobby. It's current failures (not including the internet issues) are that those who wrote and supported this LAW did not sell it properly or explain it. They misled, some as well. Also, please correct any of my misunderstandings of this LAW. But PLEEEEAS do not quote any of these FOX news or talk radio crazies.And that goes for the crap from the left on MSNBC and other propaganda outlets.

That is not my understanding of. "Obama Care". It, is not a substitute or an alternate for insurance, where employers can dump their employees. It is not insurance. It, is a law that governs minumum standards for insurance. It also enables and assist a persons search for insurance. That insurance is provided by the same insurance companies that currently sell and provide insurance. The goverment under "Obama Care" does not pay for your insurance. IT does, however provide subsidies for those whose incomes make it difficult to obtain or pay for insurance. Most will still pay for thier own insurance or will, in most cases, have employer paid insurance. Ford Autoworkers make to much money to qualify for these subsidies and would not need insurance through the insurance "exchanges" set up under "Obama care" (Actually The Affordble Care Act) because we get our health insurance, like most Americans, through our employer . Our insurance is provided by Ford as a contracted benefit that is part of our compensation. This will only change if the UAW allows Ford to walk away from this part of our compensation.

Why do YOU..."run around like a chicken with head cut off fixing shut"......Do they have a gun to your head, or have they really cut it off?

Many of those getting back pay will also be working through the shut down, Example, those who stopped the woman speeding through the capital last week.

Any FPS needs active cooperation of those involved. You, and your co-workers are what make it work of fail. irreguardless of what is put on paper between those representing workers and the company. Moral can make or break any operating system. Ford and the UAW's success depends on their understanding this. They need to engage, motivate, not shove anything down your thoat.

Decker, you are right on, even if I did not quite understand all you said. The last thing we need is to go into contract time scared for our jobs. It will be what it is, the jobs will still deserve a level of compensation. Chicago is probably being prepped to export Explorers and other world cars, It has access to world shipping via the great lakes I beleive. (It's a port to ship food all over the world, right?)

Explorer going to Oakville? After they drop the Flex?

You get what you are willing to fight for, vote for. Not weather their is 2 tier 1 tier 4 tier whatever. How about a raise for all? How about no more AWS? It's your Vote. Your world will not end if you have to walk a picket line. I've been there done that. Lost a job to strike breakers too. No regrets. I know the price of the fight. This time moderation means raise. The big 3 are competitive and have money. We gave when the chips were down, now it's our turn. Regulars AND 2 tier. Your Vote,

I stand corrected.