sajohnson
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Posts posted by sajohnson
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46 minutes ago, Rangers09 said:
As with every negotiation, it is critical to confirm the actual number you will pay.
If you only agreed MSRP, did it at least have a qualifier in the signed contract that stated it was the MSRP on a specific date. If not, you are open to being charge MSRP at time of pick, by any number of dealers. If you didn't cover your bases and only agreed an open-ended MSRP, no way it is criminal fraud, if the dealer charges you the delivery MSRP - that is what you agreed to. Price negotiations MUST be concluded before signing any contract.
Buyer beware.
At time of order, I agreed the exact number that I would pay the dealership, which included all taxes and fees. That is the same number I paid, 8+ months later, after spending < 10 mins in the Business Office. Zero discussion required on price protection, as my price negotiations pre-contract eliminated this potential. Nowhere did it state MSRP, only real numbers were included in the contract.
Quote:
"As with every negotiation, it is critical to confirm the actual number you will pay."
Agreed. We did that, $36,465 in writing, and there were no applicable MSRP increases anyway. So this isn't about our bottom line deal. It all worked out -- just like your deal, with one exception. They insisted that the $1,000 order credit did not apply! I had to find it on Ford's website -- then they did not even look at the page I found! It was like, "Oh well, gig's up..." Then, inexplicably, they claimed the $1,000 credit only applied to the Bronco Sport Badlands -- which is what we bought, but the credit applied to all BS trim levels at time of order and delivery. Not sure what they were trying to pull there.
What I am focusing on is the fact that our salesperson told us -- several times -- that we would have to pay any MSRP increases. That was clearly false. Why would they say that? The only reason I can think of is to get us to pay any potential MSRP increase and pocket the difference.
Again, that did not happen in our case (it was just attempted), but presumably we aren't the only customers that have been lied to. Chances are almost all buyers get the same bs -- and some of them get scammed -- with or without a firm price. Some people are trusting and/or gullible. That does not mean they should be taken advantage of, treated like prey.
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18 minutes ago, j2sys said:
MSRP is a suggestion.
Price protection is for the dealer, not the end customer.
Pricing is generally negotiable, though in the current market, many dealers insist on full MSRP.
If you have in writing from the dealer that they will sell you the ordered vehicle for a certain price (be it the MSRP quoted at time of order to literally anything else), and they refuse to honor it, you might have a claim for breach of contract or something like that.
Not fraud.
And the salesperson doesn't control pricing. As noted, they don't always know all the rules.
Price protection is for the dealer, with the expectation that you've agreed on a price, so the dealer pays the original quoted invoice price and is able to honor any agreement they made with you. But if you don't have a firm commitment, and the price went up by the time the invoice/window sticker was generated, then you still need to agree on price, and the dealer may insist on the higher MSRP, since they could easily sell it to the next customer for the same.
Trouble is when customers such as yourself assume that the original quoted MSRP will be the price you pay without getting it in writing or trying to negotiate.Quote:
"Trouble is when customers such as yourself assume that the original quoted MSRP will be the price you pay without getting it in writing or trying to negotiate."
"Such as yourself?" Did you read my posts above? This did not affect us personally. My wife and I got a firm price in writing -- $36,465, which was MSRP.
To be clear, I am talking about firm orders, with a fixed price in writing -- although taking advantage of a buyer because they are naïve and agree to just "MSRP" without a number beside it is sleazy.
The bottom line is, people should not lie cheat and steal. A salesperson with a decade of experience should be familiar with Ford's Automatic Price Protection -- especially the way the market has been for the last couple years.
Price Protection is for the benefit of both the dealer and the customer. Ford is doing the right thing and respecting that "a deal is a deal" -- that when a buyer and dealer agree to a price, based on Ford's pricing at the time, Ford will respect that deal and any MSRP increase will only apply to future orders. That's as it should be, but it is decent of Ford to put it in writing.
People can justify almost anything if they try hard enough, but trying to trick customers into paying MSRP increases, when Ford is covering them -- with the expectation that the customer will pay the agreed upon price -- is unethical, to put it mildly. It is taking advantage of a customer because they are not familiar with all of Ford's programs, and (at a minimum) it violates the spirit of the program.
Put another way, how would Ford feel about it?
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1 hour ago, akirby said:
Salespeople rarely understand the ordering process. They almost never deal with price protection. That’s the sales manager and some of them are clueless.
And you’re wrong about it being Fraud. At worst it’s simply a breach of contract between you and the dealer. What Ford charges the dealer is no e of your business,
To be clear, the salesperson's false claims that we would be responsible for any MSRP increases did not affect us, because the MSRP did not change between our order date and production.
It would be interesting to know what has happened to buyers who were unaware of price protection and DID have MSRP increases.' It's highly likely that the dealership pocketed the rebate from Ford -- a rebate that is meant to protect the BUYER (and dealer) from price increases. Of course I'm glad Ford has price protection, but -- regardless of the industry or product -- it should go without saying that if an item must be ordered, the customer pays the price they were promised -- up front, in writing. Ford's policy essentially formalizes what everyone understands to be normal, customary business practice -- any price increases apply going forward, to future purchases, not to existing orders. That should go without saying, whether it's a car; a TV; or a kayak.
As for whether our salesperson committed fraud against us, I'd say no -- it was 'attempted fraud', because we were not tricked into paying any MSRP increases. I imagine other customers have not been so lucky.
I'm not an attorney. As far as I know, you aren't either. So neither one of us is in a position to determine whether our salesperson's statements constitute attempted fraud -- or, if that same con is successful with other customers, and they are tricked into paying more than they should -- if that meets the legal definition of fraud. My non-lawyer opinion is that it does, based on this definition from Cornell Law School:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fraud"Fraud is both a civil tort and criminal wrong.
In civil litigation, allegations of fraud might be based on a misrepresentation of fact that was either intentional or negligent. For a statement to be an intentional misrepresentation, the person who made it must either have known the statement was false or been reckless as to its truth. The speaker must have also intended that the person to whom the statement was made would rely on it. The hearer must then have reasonably relied on the promise and also been harmed because of that reliance."
The only way to know with certainty if a salesperson tricking buyers into paying any & all MSRP increases -- and then keeping the rebate from Ford -- is fraud, is if civil and/or criminal charges are filed and a judge or jury makes a determination of guilt or innocence.
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6 hours ago, akirby said:
The devil is in the details. The fact that you said “IIRC” implies you did not get that price in writing. I know it’s all semantics - either way they should not charge you the difference, but to say it’s fraud isn’t really accurate in most cases. It may be ignorant or scummy but not fraud.I should have spelled it out more clearly -- my "IIRC" referred to the *precise* amount, not whether an amount was specified.
There was an agreed upon price in writing -- and it was $36,465 (I just checked).
To review, the definition of fraud is: "Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain."
Our salesperson has over a decade of experience in sales with Ford. "Ignorant" might apply if they had only been on the job for a few months, during a period with very few mid-year MSRP increases. However, a salesperson with over 10 years on the job, at a time when MSRP increases are common, cannot claim ignorance.
"Scummy" is definitely an accurate adjective, as in, "The scummy salesperson who knew full well that Price Protection applied, tried to use deception to convince the customer that they had to pay any/all MSRP increases -- to enable the salesperson and/or the dealership to steal the difference."
That fits the definition of fraud to a 'T'.
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29 minutes ago, akirby said:
What Ford charges the dealer is between them and Ford. Whatever deal you make with the dealer is between you and the dealer.
If you agreed to a specific price then that’s what you should pay - period.
If you just agreed to pay MSRP then you’re stuck with the MSRP that gets printed on the window sticker.
We had agreed to a specific price, MSRP at the time, which IIRC was $36,465. My concern is that although we had agreed to a fixed amount, in writing, the sales person told us several times that if there were any MSRP increases we would have to pay them. That is clearly false. This person has over 10 years experience with Ford.
The only reason I can think of that the salesperson would lie is that they have a way of pocketing the Price Protection rebate from Ford. That fits the definition of fraud.
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The definition of fraud:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fraud" DECEIT, TRICKERY
specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right"For a salesperson to claim -- multiple times -- that the customer(s) must pay any and all MSRP increases is clearly false, and an attempt to get the customer to pay the increased MSRP so that the salesperson and/or dealership can pocket the Price Protection rebate from Ford.
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Good for you for fighting them CactusGray!
What is the certificate you mentioned?
I hadn't heard of the Smart Vincent excuse. Our salesperson just told us (multiple times) that we would be responsible for any MSRP increases from that date (order date) forward. That did not sound right to me, but while I've purchased 6 new vehicles, I had never faced a situation with rapidly increasing prices. Obviously we did not sign anything regarding MSRP increases and when we got home I did some reading here and on the Bronco Sport Forum and quickly discovered Ford's "Price Protection". I immediately sent the salesperson a friendly "Look what I found" email.
As it happened, there were no price increases on the BS Badlands between our order a production dates. The sticker showed the MSRP we agreed to, so we did not need price protection.
I do wonder though if they try that with all of their customers who order, and what the dealer would do if the there was an MSRP increase and the customer was unaware of price protection? My guess is that they would force the customer to pay the new, higher MSRP and then pocket the money from Ford.
That's otherwise known as criminal fraud. I wonder how often it happens? It's a shame Ford puts up with behavior like that.
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I rarely defend car dealers, but...
If someone won a new car or truck in a raffle (say) and they have no need for it -- should they sell it for:
a) $1 because they got it for free (or whatever the tickets cost them)?
b) Dealer invoice?c) MSRP?
d) Top dollar/what the market will bear?
The value of any item or product is whatever a willing buyer and willing seller agree on (under no undue pressure). Sticker/MSRP is often irrelevant. The *value* of a vehicle may be higher or lower -- sometimes by a lot. When the value is lower, the seller/dealer must reduce the price below MSRP. When the price is higher, they can raise it.
Another way to think about it is, if a car/truck is worth $20,000 over MSRP (buyers are lined up at that price) and the dealer still sells for MSRP they are essentially giving away $20,000 with each sale. Some buyers will just flip the vehicle and pocket the $20,000. So why should the dealer do that?
I'm almost always on the side of the buyer/consumer, but in this case I think the dealers have a good argument for charging ADM. To be clear, I'm referring to *in stock*/on the lot vehicles. Last minute ADM on special orders is no more than extortion.
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On 4/1/2022 at 7:39 PM, MFord said:
they just may not encounter it too much but I was speaking with a 7 year senior sales manager. Ill give him benefit of the doubt, but would like to provide him insight on the right track to help him for future sales and obviously my own sale.
yeah, it got invoiced this month. Maybe due to truck being built/sticker, etc…
i ordered in september so thought I would be locked in from the two increases. Currently up $2295 from original. I also dont know what original x plan was from my DORA sheet as they never provided one. Today was the first day I saw my x plan price.
IDK what more to say -- your price should remain the same as what you agreed to. See any of the price increase memos posted here.
Any increases between order and build dates will show on the window sticker, but you pay the price you originally agreed to.
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3 hours ago, MFord said:
@ice-capades Is there an exact process to properly apply the price protection in house with the dealer? Like what do they need to do?
reason i ask is they stated they have not seen the documents for price protection but will “try” to get the vehicle reinvoiced. It was invoiced in march, with the updated price. I ordered in September before two price increases, brought both forms to the dealer to show price protection. The sales manager stated he would try to get it reinvoiced. Is that the correct channel to get price protection?
thank you for the clarification on this price protection.
There are a lot of guys here who know way more than I do about this, but:
1) Ford's Price Protection states (paraphrasing) that 'orders submitted before the price increase will NOT be re-invoiced.' In other words, the price you agreed upon remains the same. The new, higher MSRP applies going *forward* -- it is not retroactive.2) There should be no reason for the dealer to get your vehicle re-invoiced -- that implies that the price would increase.
3) The fact that they are saying "they have not seen the documents for price protection" is a big red flag IMO. How could they have not seen them?
4) Unless price protection does not apply to the vehicle you ordered, it should NOT be reinvoiced and you should pay what you agreed to pay.
Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in.
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FWIW -- we picked up our Bronco Sport Badlands (BS BL) a couple days ago (3/25).
* The published MSRP had increased by at least $500 since we ordered. There was no mention of that by the salesman, which was as it should be since the $500 increase was after the production date. IOW, the MSRP on the sticker we printed out a few weeks ago was identical to the agreed upon MSRP when we ordered.
* The dealer did not attempt any extortion (last minute ADM).
That's the good news. The bad news is that they pretended that the $1,000 order incentive did not apply! It was in effect when we ordered (12/17/21) and on the delivery date. They forced us to actually look it up online and show it to them. Then, when I told them I had found it on Ford's site, they did not even bother to look at my phone! They went from insisting the BS was not included to accepting that it was -- without even confirming it.
It gets stranger -- they then declared that it applied to the Badlands ONLY, which worked for us, but is clearly not the case. I had the Ford page open, and it stated that ALL BS trim levels are included. I have no idea what that game was about. Had we just taken their word for it that the $1,000 order credit did not apply to the BS BL, could they have pocketed the $1,000?
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22 minutes ago, bbf2530 said:
Hi sajohnson. I completely understand. Everyone's circumstances are different. Which is why I always try to convince others to ask for advice if they like...But no one else is living our life, so in the end, we all need to take our own personal circumstances into account and make a decision based on what is best for our life.
I wish you the best of luck!
Thanks!
I've offered people help over the years, but I've found that most of them do not act on it. They want a "get rich quick" silver bullet. I've always followed John Bogle's advice -- it's not sexy or exciting but it works.
I'm just glad my wife and I have options. Apparently lenders are willing to overlook low income if you put 50% down.
I'm reminded of the son of a friend of ours who just HAD to have a particular car. Even with mom co-signing, the rate as 28%(!). Then he wrecked the car. Insurance paid a decent amount, but because the state where he purchased the car does not require lenders to allow early payoff with no penalty, he still owed the full amount due on the loan. They couldn't pay the remainder (above the ins payment) and mom's credit was ruined. He was one of the people who asked for advice but did not follow it.
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51 minutes ago, bbf2530 said:
Hi sajohnson. Assuming you are getting a return better than 0.9% on your Index Fund (jeez...let's hope so?), take the FMC loan, leave the money in the fund and make the monthly payments.
When we purchased our 2018 MKZ, Lincoln Motor Credit was offering 0% on their loans (up to 60 months). So we paid off $10,000 on our best member-perks/points credit card (for the points, since we pay it off in full every month anyway) and took the Lincoln Motor Credit loan for the balance. In that way, we were able to keep the balance of the money invested, and pay the loan off at 0% interest over the next 5 years.
And if you are not getting >0.9% on your Index Fund? Find a new Financial Consultant. ??
Let us know how you make out and good luck.
Smart man, and great advice!
The money we have easy access to is in a local bank account earning almost zero interest, so I don't feel bad using it as a down payment. The index funds are 100% S&P 500; another account is 50/50 stock and bond index funds, so it's a bit more stable. Needless to say, both are down right now so I'd rather not touch them.
Ordinarily (as you said) it would make sense to take all the money you can get at 0% to 1 or even 2% or more -- finance the full amount and leave your money invested, earning substantially more. Our situation is a bit unusual in that we have savings but our income (and fortunately, our expenses) is low. So making full car loan payments would be difficult.
Even financing about 50% of the total cost may force us to use some index fund money to either continue making payments or pay the loan off in a year or two. My hope is that the market will be looking better at that point. Of course my master plan could backfire...
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14 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:
I have a Ford Credit loan. I got the 0% for 72 months with no fees whatsoever. And I got it through a Ford dealer. I believe Ford offers 0% on Escape and Edge for sure to those with excellent credit ratings. What's nice is you can manage your loan thru Ford Pass app. Makes it easy and convenient.
Great news FordBuyer, thank you.
I think the best I can get on a BS Badlands is 0.9% -- still not too bad. Hopefully that deal will continue into April at least.
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17 minutes ago, bbf2530 said:
Hi sajohnson. Through Ford Motor Credit? Not that I have ever heard of or experienced.
If a Dealer uses an outside loan source, quite possibly yes. But that should not occur unless an individual has insufficient credit to finance through Ford Motor Credit.
Good luck.
Excellent, thanks bbf.
I'm fortunate enough to have good credit and some savings -- I'm considering whether to finance half through FMC or withdraw the additional money from an S&P 500 index fund.
As long as the 0.9% rate is still available when our Badlands is delivered in a couple weeks I'll take advantage of that and leave the index fund alone.
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I searched but couldn't find anything,
Are there fees associated with getting a loan at a Ford dealer?
I've left messages for the finance dept at our dealer but haven't heard back.
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1 hour ago, akirby said:
There have a,ways been mid year price increases so that’s not new. X plan (and A/Z/D) sales are also price protected.I may have misunderstood.
'balthisar' said:
"There are a lot of us that are are [x] Plan users, though, so negotiation with a dealer who has agreed to accept Plans is moot; discussion of price protection is certainly not out of scope for us."
I took that to mean that although balthisar is using the x Plan, price protection may still be an issue -- something to discuss with the dealer.
You replied:
" I still don’t see it as a big issue as long as it’s disclosed up front that the price can change and you get the price in effect at the time it’s built."
It seems like you're saying that it's not a big issue if the buyer must pay what can be thousands of dollars in MSRP increases -- as long as they were told up front. I hope I read that wrong.
If, as you say, 'X plan (and A/Z/D) sales are also price protected', the buyer should never be in that position. What am I missing?
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35 minutes ago, j2sys said:
Price Protection is between the dealer and Ford, not the end consumer. It means that the dealer pays the invoice price quoted at time of order.
So if the dealer is matched back to the original pricing, one would reasonably conclude that Plan pricing would be based on that price level, not any new level that comes along before the vehicle is invoiced.
That makes sense.
As I've mentioned, on the day we ordered our Badlands, the salesman told us (multiple times) that we would have to pay any MSRP increases. With 1 exception (a 2002 WRX ordered from that same dealer) I've always bought cars from inventory, so the idea of potential mid-year MSRP increases was new to me.My immediate thought was that it is highly unlikely Ford would do business that way. I'd never heard of any mfr of any product not honoring the original agreed upon price at time of order.
The salesman did not put that in writing, and as it happens there were no MSRP increases before production, so I am not concerned about it.
Still, he has 10 years experience (5 each at 2 local dealers). I have to wonder whether he was just uninformed, or if he was fully aware of the Price Protection program. If he as simply unaware of it, then you'd think he would have made sure to have us agree *in writing* to pay any MSRP increases -- to cover himself and the dealership. After all, if price protection did not exist, *someone* would have to pay any MSRP increases. That could be negotiated -- anything from 100% dealership to 100% buyer -- but a salesman would want that in writing.
So I can't help but wonder if there is not some way for a dealership and/or salesperson to receive reimbursement from Ford even if the customer has already paid the higher MSRP.
It's academic at this point. I'm just curious.
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27 minutes ago, j2sys said:
I mean, or just ask your salesperson to check VV for you.
NO! Too easy!
Before I bother him, could you give me an example of the info I might expect to see?
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On 3/3/2022 at 12:41 PM, akirby said:
Very few are getting x plan today but yes that would be an exception. I still don’t see it as a big issue as long as it’s disclosed up front that the price can change and you get the price in effect at the time it’s built. And remember if we were in a normal 4- week build interval this would almost never happen."...the price can change and you get the price in effect at the time it’s built."
I'm not in the business, so I don't know the details of how x plan works. It sounds like Ford's Price Protection does not apply to x plan orders, is that correct? If so, in this market (with frequent MSRP increases) x plan may not always be the best deal. It might be better to go for a bit higher price that's locked in.
Good point about the extremely long build intervals (combined with market forces) causing MSRP increases to be a more frequent issue. No doubt about that. Still, even with a normal 4 week interval -- in a market similar to this with regular MSRP increases, many buyers would see price increases between order and build date. I guess that's unlikely to happen though, and hopefully never will.
How common were mid-year MSRP increases in "the before times"? I never paid very close attention, but my impression was that MSRP generally stayed the same for an entire model year.
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16 minutes ago, j2sys said:
That's because Vehicle Visibility is an internal tool accessible only to Ford employees and dealers.
So -- all I need to do is head over to our local Ford dealer and get hired as a technician... ?
OK, thanks, that was not clear to me. That's too bad, I'd like to see it.
As it happens the MSRP on the sticker for our Badlands is identical to what it was when we ordered on Dec 17. It was built before Feb 28, so we avoided that price increase.
Still, it would be interesting to see the info in Vehicle Visibility.
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On 2/26/2022 at 5:29 PM, balthisar said:
If I look in Vehicle Visibility, it shows the Price Level that applied when I ordered my vehicle. Every, single, little change is available in Visibility, so I'm assuming that if I weren't price protected, my Price Level would change in Visibility, right?
I may be looking in the wrong place, but at https://shop.ford.com/vehicleordertracking/status I can enter my VIN and get vehicle specific info, but I do not see the Vehicle Visibility Program with pricing.A Google search was no help -- Ford said to go to the link above.
Can someone point me in the right direction?
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1 hour ago, Blown32 said:
This is my first time ordering a Ford, wish I had known this (this and other above posts) going in. I was told when I ordered that the DORA was the price but it may change a few dollars either way but not much. I did sign an agreement and had to mark off all the extras they tried to sneak in (2k paint protect, 2k glass protection, etc...) but it didn't show the x-plan pricing as "it was a weekend and only the back office can do that". I got the DORA with the x-plan pricing but since then they have told me the price is subject to change. In hindsight I should have taken that as a sign that they were not going to deal with customers straight up and walked out the door. Maybe I should have went expecting to get lied to and went into it from an adversarial perspective but in my profession we don't treat people like that and live by our word (yes, I should have known better as that is apparently an outdated perspective). Regretfully I didn't discover this and other forums like it prior to ordering.
Maybe it will all work out if my truck gets built (pushed off 4 times now), but so far the experience has been disappointing.
Maybe a sticky like: "THINGS TO KNOW BEFORE YOU ORDER" and populate it with this kind of info. Had I known the issues people are apparently having with various dealers, I would have either traveled for a different dealer or went with a different brand truck altogether although somehow I doubt the other brand dealers are any better.
Sorry for the rant but this has been a very frustrating process.
No need to be sorry. It's a real shame the process is so frustrating for so many people. Needles to say, it does not have to be that way.
If everyone treated customers the way you do there would be no problem. My wife and I have family in Iowa, and that's how things are there. A lot of business is still done with a handshake. If a contract is used, there are no "gotcha" surprises. People treat each other with respect.
You should not have to pay any price increases since Ford offers "Price Protection". In our case the salesman told us we were going to have to pay any price increases. I thought that sounded odd, but it was not in writing, so I wasn't too worried about it. My wife and I placed the order and I looked into what the deal was with price increases. Since then, I found out -- first on the Bronco Sport Forum and then here on Blue Oval -- that Ford guarantees the price at the time the order is submitted. Some salesmen are not aware of the program, others may be trying to double-dip -- trick the customer into paying the increase and then pocket the rebate from Ford (if that's possible).
I called the sales manager and he said they routinely use price protection. He was surprised the salesman did not know that. He said the customer pays the original agreed upon price and the dealership gets reimbursed by Ford. Sounds straight forward.
You might want to call the sales manager at your dealer and confirm that they will use price protection. Most likely they will. If not, that will give you some time to talk with the GM/dealership principal, and if necessary, the region manager. It should not be an issue though.
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32 minutes ago, akirby said:
All true which is why you can walk away with no penalty. But if you sue you have to prove damages of some kind. Your best bet is to pay the extra fees and then sue them for that extra cost as a breach of contract. Otherwise you won’t have the vehicle and proving damages is really difficult.Hopefully it won't come to that. Our local dealer is over 105 years old(!) and has been in the same family the entire time. They seem to have a good reputation.
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Ford Retail Price Increases
in Ford Motor Company Discussion Forum
Posted
I'm sorry to hear Ford is acting that way.
It's easy to see how there might be some confusion when the name is not the same, but that should be easily straightened out.
It appears as though Ford does not want to honor their own program. If a company is going to have a policy like Ford's Price Protection they should stand by it. If not, cancel it.
To hold out a carrot but then yank it away is worse than having no price protection at all. It come across as nothing more that a marketing scam and makes Ford look bad.