Ford Jellymoulds Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 What provisions have Ford got in place for the Re-Design of Aston Martin - Land Rover - Jaguar cars before 2012. Aston Martin Vanquish engine pumps out 448g Range Rover 4.2 V8 pumps out 374g European Union are setting a 120g carbon dioxide per kilometre driven for 2012. It's reported in the British Press TheTimes, Daily Mail etc that leading quality brands such as Aston Martin, Land Rover, Rolls Royce, Jaguar and Bently would all be forced out of business due to swinging fines, followed by complete bans on selling the cars within Europe. At the moment hybrids and a few very small cars under 1000cc meet the 120g target, Ford Fiesta 1.4 TDI is the only Ford that will meet this target. I think personally Ford would be better off selling them off as soon as possible as a 1000cc petrol Aston Martin or a 1.4 lire powered Land Rover will not work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 (edited) What provisions have Ford got in place for the Re-Design of Aston Martin - Land Rover - Jaguar cars before 2012. Aston Martin Vanquish engine pumps out 448g Range Rover 4.2 V8 pumps out 374g European Union are setting a 120g carbon dioxide per kilometre driven for 2012. It's reported in the British Press TheTimes, Daily Mail etc that leading quality brands such as Aston Martin, Land Rover, Rolls Royce, Jaguar and Bently would all be forced out of business due to swinging fines, followed by complete bans on selling the cars within Europe. At the moment hybrids and a few very small cars under 1000cc meet the 120g target, Ford Fiesta 1.4 TDI is the only Ford that will meet this target. I think personally Ford would be better off selling them off as soon as possible as a 1000cc petrol Aston Martin or a 1.4 lire powered Land Rover will not work. Aston is in a sustainable space - they are profitable, have rising sales, and they are just fine .. Ford will sell them by the end of the year, to raise some cash, and allow Jaguar to move upmarket ABOVE the the traditional luxury segment of the like of BMW and Mercedes. Jaguar, will be a slow starter. They have a new S-type, dubbed XF coming this fall, on sale this winter/next spring. Seeing the reception of the XK< this will probably increase their sales and their revenue side. XJ is next and should be all new for 2010 Model year, so next year. Some sources clim Jag will drop the X-type and sell its factory, others contradict that rumor, so we will see about that. Ford does not predict Jag to pre profitable before 2009. Land Rover is profitable, respectable brand. The have no structural issues, except for some recent reliability snafus. The next new model after the all new LR2, will be a brand new Range Rover. Jaguar is the closest to extinction - Mulally has short temper for money pits - especially money pits that are not crucial to the corporation. If Jag strays off the plan - they will be sold. Aston will be sold as an asset liquidation, but unless the new owner messes up big time, they are just dandy. LR will stay at Ford and will continue on ... it has no issues. Igor Edited January 29, 2007 by igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 The ridiculous clean air standards the EU is after are not only affecting Ford. EVERY AUTOMAKER that sells cars in Europe will basically be forced to start from scratch on a lot of things. In the end, special interests will probably make the EU cave and loosen the regulations, which, by the way, have not been finalized yet anyway. If they can't get the regulations loosened, they will find a way to adapt. They always have in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted January 29, 2007 Author Share Posted January 29, 2007 Aston is in a sustainable space - they are profitable, have rising sales, and they are just fine .. Ford will sell them by the end of the year, to raise some cash, and allow Jaguar to move upmarket ABOVE the the traditional luxury segment of the like of BMW and Mercedes. Jaguar, will be a slow starter. They have a new S-type, dubbed XF coming this fall, on sale this winter/next spring. Seeing the reception of the XK< this will probably increase their sales and their revenue side. XJ is next and should be all new for 2010 Model year, so next year. Some sources clim Jag will drop the X-type and sell its factory, others contradict that rumor, so we will see about that. Ford does not predict Jag to pre profitable before 2009. Land Rover is profitable, respectable brand. The have no structural issues, except for some recent reliability snafus. The next new model after the all new LR2, will be a brand new Range Rover. Jaguar is the closest to extinction - Mulally has short temper for money pits - especially money pits that are not crucial to the corporation. If Jag strays off the plan - they will be sold. Aston will be sold as an asset liquidation, but unless the new owner messes up big time, they are just dandy. LR will stay at Ford and will continue on ... it has no issues. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted January 29, 2007 Author Share Posted January 29, 2007 I just hope they can survive, as they will have no car sales figures within Europe after 2012 unless they redesign the current range of vechicles before then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 I just hope they can survive, as they will have no car sales figures within Europe after 2012 unless they redesign the current range of vechicles before then. If nobody redesigns their vehicles prior to 2012, there will be about 5 vehicles total on sale in all of Europe. You're getting a little carried away with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted January 29, 2007 Author Share Posted January 29, 2007 If nobody redesigns their vehicles prior to 2012, there will be about 5 vehicles total on sale in all of Europe. You're getting a little carried away with this. You are right European Union have always given way in the past, but they now have set themselves emission targets for 2012 which have to met by law, they said there will be no backing down this time round. France, Italy and all the high volume German producers would have little problem meeting this date. It's the high quality low volume manufactuers that will find it hard. Global Warming is very much No1issue in Europe at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TStag Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 This is not going to be a problem for Land Rover or Jaguar because the EU talks about an average emmisions target across a car makers entire range. So providing Ford keeps shifting Ka's and Fiesta's then they can ofset Land Rover's and Jags improving Co2 emmisions. By 2012 Land Rover will be introducing much more environmentally friendly cars anyway (e.g made out of aluminium, stop/ start technology, hybrids, etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Kolman Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Wouldn't a company like Mercedes and BMW have more trouble with this than PAG? And do you think England and Germany are willing to kill it's autoindustry? I know they think 10% unemployment is normal, but I doubt they want another hundred thousand on the street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Wouldn't a company like Mercedes and BMW have more trouble with this than PAG? And do you think England and Germany are willing to kill it's autoindustry? I know they think 10% unemployment is normal, but I doubt they want another hundred thousand on the street. The one I can see it really impacting the most is Porsche. NONE of their vehicles are low CO2 emitters. At least Mercedes and BMW have entry level cars. I guess that's why there could be some truth to the rumors that Porsche is considering buying Volkswagen AG. That would certainly lower their corporate-wide CO2 levels. This could also leave Aston Martin in a pickle if they are no longer associated with a big-market automaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Kolman Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Another thing I forgot to comment on... X-Type plant, old Ford Escort Halewood plant, has a pretty good future. LR2 and XC50 are both to be built there, and there's a good chance the FoE Escape/Maverick replacement as well. And while the X-Type has image problems here in NA and western Europe in emerging markets it's become a very good seller. So while it might be dropped from these shores I could see it continuing on. Just remember the wolrd extends beyond the America and Europe... And soon we can expect China and India to buy as cars than we do... And do to overcrowding concerns I expect their tastes to run smaller than Europe (like Japan). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going_Going_Gone Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 IMO, LR is joined at the hip to Jaguar having just weaned themselves from the BMW powerplants. Currently LR is using Jaguar engines and powertrain engineering is shared. If Jaguar is sold, LR will have to be part of the package. Hopefully, Jaguar has hit rock-bottom and is on the rebound. If not, they are likely to drag LR down with them. In a perfect world, all three brands will stay with Ford and contribute to a better bottom line. If Ford wants to be a "serious player" in the automotive segment of the U.S. market, they need strong subsidiaries to compete across-the-spectrum from the Koreans to the Germans. We've seen how concentrating on a particular market segment (SUVs and F-150s) hurt Ford in the recent past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TStag Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 [quote Jaguar is the closest to extinction - Mulally has short temper for money pits - especially money pits that are not crucial to the corporation. If Jag strays off the plan - they will be sold. Aston will be sold as an asset liquidation, but unless the new owner messes up big time, they are just dandy. LR will stay at Ford and will continue on ... it has no issues. IMO, LR is joined at the hip to Jaguar having just weaned themselves from the BMW powerplants. Currently LR is using Jaguar engines and powertrain engineering is shared. If Jaguar is sold, LR will have to be part of the package. Hopefully, Jaguar has hit rock-bottom and is on the rebound. If not, they are likely to drag LR down with them. In a perfect world, all three brands will stay with Ford and contribute to a better bottom line. If Ford wants to be a "serious player" in the automotive segment of the U.S. market, they need strong subsidiaries to compete across-the-spectrum from the Koreans to the Germans. We've seen how concentrating on a particular market segment (SUVs and F-150s) hurt Ford in the recent past. Just because Land Rover uses Jaguar engines doesn't mean that they couldn't be split. Land Rover is arguably one of Ford's most sucessfull brands but the problem is Jaguar isn't performing and by itself it would be hard to dispose of. The only reason Ford would part with Land Rover is to find a way to sell Jaguar. Frankly Ford need to fix Jaguar with great designs, if it does this then the combined Jaguar/ Land Rover group could be a big sucess story for Ford. In other words Ford need to Jag/ Land Rover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Kolman Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Powertrains are hardly the only thing Jaguar shares with Land Rover and the rest of Ford of Europe (including Volvo)... Esentially they are getting to the point where all of Ford of Europe will share all electrical and mechnical componentry (computers, light bulbs, shocks, etc.). Beyond that Land Rover and Jaguar are now sharing a common "buissness house"... All of the supplier and buissness management folks are from a single common organization. They are also moving to a common labor relationship, single labor contract for all Land Rover and Jaguar facilities. This makes Land Rover and Jaguar are tied together contracturally, which is far more difficult to seperate than any shared hardware. In truth Ford's moves have been such to wed these two companies from the inside... It's almost to the point where it will be like trying to seperate conjoned-twins sharing the same liver. The costs and risks to split the two simply aren't worth it... This makes killing Jagaur alone quite difficult, and not very cost effective unless you write off Land Rover as well. But if you plan on holding on to Jaguar and "making it work" than this structure reduces it's inherent costs and improve effecencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TStag Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Powertrains are hardly the only thing Jaguar shares with Land Rover and the rest of Ford of Europe (including Volvo)... Esentially they are getting to the point where all of Ford of Europe will share all electrical and mechnical componentry (computers, light bulbs, shocks, etc.). Beyond that Land Rover and Jaguar are now sharing a common "buissness house"... All of the supplier and buissness management folks are from a single common organization. They are also moving to a common labor relationship, single labor contract for all Land Rover and Jaguar facilities. This makes Land Rover and Jaguar are tied together contracturally, which is far more difficult to seperate than any shared hardware. In truth Ford's moves have been such to wed these two companies from the inside... It's almost to the point where it will be like trying to seperate conjoned-twins sharing the same liver. The costs and risks to split the two simply aren't worth it... This makes killing Jagaur alone quite difficult, and not very cost effective unless you write off Land Rover as well. But if you plan on holding on to Jaguar and "making it work" than this structure reduces it's inherent costs and improve effecencies. Ford could sell the Jag factories, brand and products to another company and just provide outsourced solutions for business management functions to the buyer until their own teams are ready to take over. How do you think BMW split Land Rover from Rover? The truth is Ford just need to grit their teeth and get on with it. Jag may have it's problems but when Range Rover is pulvirising Mercedes S class sales in the UK then you know your on to a winner. Land Rover's brand equity has never been so strong, even in these environmentally concious times. People also forget that whilst Jag is struggling at the moment it does have a great brand name and exciting products in the pipeline. The basic business is right. Jag is not the disaster people make it out to be. Ford should be pumping the cash into Land Rover to grow the business more quickly. Patience at Jag + growth at Land Rover = Big long term profits at PAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Ford could sell the Jag factories, brand and products to another company and just provide outsourced solutions for business management functions to the buyer until their own teams are ready to take over. How do you think BMW split Land Rover from Rover? The truth is Ford just need to grit their teeth and get on with it. Jag may have it's problems but when Range Rover is pulvirising Mercedes S class sales in the UK then you know your on to a winner. Land Rover's brand equity has never been so strong, even in these environmentally concious times. People also forget that whilst Jag is struggling at the moment it does have a great brand name and exciting products in the pipeline. The basic business is right. Jag is not the disaster people make it out to be. Ford should be pumping the cash into Land Rover to grow the business more quickly. Patience at Jag + growth at Land Rover = Big long term profits at PAG. While Land Rover's sales are increasing and their image is pretty good, surveys still show that their quality is pretty abyssmal. They need to focus on that first instead of trying to grow the business even further. If LR can maintain its current volumes and profits, there's no real urgent need to expand their product line. The money for expanded product needs to go to Jaguar, as they already appear to have their quality issues straightened out, but lack the right product to grow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TStag Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 While Land Rover's sales are increasing and their image is pretty good, surveys still show that their quality is pretty abyssmal. They need to focus on that first instead of trying to grow the business even further. If LR can maintain its current volumes and profits, there's no real urgent need to expand their product line. The money for expanded product needs to go to Jaguar, as they already appear to have their quality issues straightened out, but lack the right product to grow. If a business is doing as well as Land Rover, then you keep growing it, in part to keep things fresh. Look at how BMW have grown. Land Rover has the power to do the same thing. Instead of building a naw Ford Maveric for Europe or something like that (which no one will buy anyway), they should build another Land Rover, which will sell for more money and generate more cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 If a business is doing as well as Land Rover, then you keep growing it, in part to keep things fresh. Look at how BMW have grown. Land Rover has the power to do the same thing. Instead of building a naw Ford Maveric for Europe or something like that (which no one will buy anyway), they should build another Land Rover, which will sell for more money and generate more cash. Well, once everything is sorted out and profitable again, hopefully Ford can do BOTH: increase quality and number of products, but frankly, the way things are right now, Ford is lucky LR is doing as well as it is and really should be diverting that expansion money elsewhere where it is needed more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TStag Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Well, once everything is sorted out and profitable again, hopefully Ford can do BOTH: increase quality and number of products, but frankly, the way things are right now, Ford is lucky LR is doing as well as it is and really should be diverting that expansion money elsewhere where it is needed more. Land Rover is doing well because despite reliaiblty concerns nothing else can touch them offroad and nothing can beat them for Luxury. Jeep for example just looks rubbish compared to anything made by Land Rover. I just bought a lurvley Freelaner 2 btw and it kicks ass! Now then I want a Landie too, not a crappy Maveric. Come on Ford build more Land Rover's! WE WANT MORE!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Land Rover is doing well because despite reliaiblty concerns nothing else can touch them offroad and nothing can beat them for Luxury. Jeep for example just looks rubbish compared to anything made by Land Rover. I just bought a lurvley Freelaner 2 btw and it kicks ass! Now then I want a Landie too, not a crappy Maveric. Come on Ford build more Land Rover's! WE WANT MORE!!! Post pics of your Freelander when you get em!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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