I wish for.. an AWD performance car

[mjones302]

My biggest wish is for a AWD performance car from Ford.

 

One with high tech features such as a smaller diplacement engine with VVT, direct injection, turbocharged, navigation system, sophisticated rear biased AWD (not just front to back, all 4 tires controlled by the system or at least no open diff's at the least), svt tuned suspension and braking, nice interior with good sound system (mp3, subwoofer, etc..), nice exhaust note, 6-speed MANUAL trans, and room in all the components for the aftermarket to pull more power out of it.

 

Yes, this sounds like a crazy wish list and by all counts might not be buildable for a reasonable price, but this would be my dream car. I am hoping the SVT Fusion comes somewhat close to this mark if not on it (AWD fusion with 3.5L+DI+turbo). I am hoping that the SVT Fusion comes with at least ~350hp, as test mules have been rumored to be making easily with turbo 3.5L's, and that there will be room for much more power. If not, maybe the focus will eventually come with AWD and turbo and get close to the mark, similar to the projected RS focus in Europe with 300hp/AWD that was cancelled.

 

This is the car I have been waiting for, for a very long time. I am on my second SVT vehicle (01 Lightning before and now 04 Focus) and I have loved what they have done with those (except the focus needed another 50hp), now do this to an AWD car please! I would love to see Ford show that they have the capability to build advanced cars with an American style (brutal). I have been a Ford fan since I was like 3 years old when my dad asked me what cars I liked on the TV (nascar) and I said "blue" and pointed to the Ford's, I have owned 5 Fords in my life so far and never owned another brand of vehicle, however lately I find myself wanting an AWD car so bad I am tempted to jump ship. Please don't make me do it!

Edited December 3, 2005 by mjones302

[Max]

Please don't make me do it!

 

 

If their products won't, their dealer network surely will. :lol:

 

 

 

I myself would love to see a HI-PO AWD car from Ford, so they can show their performance prowess, but I just don't think we're going to get one. In this time of multiple cutbacks, I've questioned the need for an "SVT" when their vehicles are fairly mediocre. The Focus SVT, armed with only front wheel drive and 170 HP, will easily get taken down by an Impreza WRX or Lancer Evolution. So exactly how special is the Focus SVT suppose to be again? Special because it's limited in quantity...maybe. For what the Impreza WRX is (an expensive 300 HP, AWD near specialty vehicle), I see a bunch of them around and I live in the sun-belt of the US. I saw even more when I was living in the snow belt. I surely hope they will come up with something...with the blue oval on it. A global company like Ford, that owns such prestigious resourceful brands as Land Rover, Aston Martin, Jaguar, Volvo, and Mazda to a lesser extent, you'd think they'd come up with something more than two pickups and a muscle car for their North American SVT line-up. But I digress...

[mjones302]

I hear what you are saying, however I think if, for example, the Focus SVT was the Focus RS from Europe (http://www.focusrs.net/picture_gallery/picture_gallery.htm) that things might have been very different in the way the SVT focus was seen. Even though the RS was down on power (212hp) when compared to the upper level AWD STI's and EVO's, it was still very fast around a road course because of it's exceptional handling and braking. (BTW only the STI versions are 300hp, the WRX is only rated at 227-230hp, of which the RS would soundly beat in most comparisions). If you can find the Top gear review of the Focus RS it beat the WRX around their road course, and they had a lot of good things to say about it. Not only would the RS have spanked the other foreign compact cars in the market (its main rivals, the STI and EVO are more upscale), it probably would have also taken sales away from SRT-4's as well because it would have been more civilized.

 

But instead they gave us the 170hp SVT Focus, its an awesome car as far as handling and braking goes, I don't think there is a better value in those regards, however its just way down on power. I bought mine fully expecting to go with forced induction to raise it up to the right power level thinking FWD would grow on me, however it hasn't and now I have a Vortech supercharger sitting waiting for me to decide what to do I know of one guy making 290whp with his Vortech (on california 91 octane none-the-less), which would no doubt be a blast but in order for me to get there I'd need a new diff (SVTF came with a open diff...), clutch, and some other components. Since I am not so liking FWD, I think I would rather wait and hope Ford does an AWD car then dump down another couple grand to get the supercharger on.

 

But like you said its hard to justify SVT atm, except for the halo effect we have heard so much about, which I think does have an effect on the image your cars have I just don't know how you could quantify it. Well, I am keeping my fingers crossed!

[Max]

BTW only the STI versions are 300hp, the WRX is only rated at 227-230hp...

As I'm aware of that...you're still looking at a price range for a hot rod compact of $24K to $35K. Like I mentioned previously, I see them in some pretty significant numbers. Even with the STI badge...

 

 

...I don't think there is a better value in those regards...

 

I do believe Ford's perception that they have of themselves needs to change. More so with SVT...SVT should not mean value performance, which is what they've been producing with fair success most notably the first generation of the Ford Lightning. This value performance should come in a lower package, if need be. Otherwise the SVT should be a high performance stock racer. This perception problem is part of a greater problem. The problem Ford has in distinguishing themselves from Mercury and Lincoln. That makes no sense whatsoever. The blue oval should say performance itself, because Mercury and Lincoln are definitely not in that niche...there should be no question of that. But that line blurs when you try to advertise "value" as your major selling point with a side of performance. One thing for sure, if Ford management was controlling GM with 7 domestic brands (formally 8), surely GM would have been bankrupt by now. Ford has a hard enough time with getting products (desirable products at that) to 3 domestic brands.

[mjones302]

As I'm aware of that...you're still looking at a price range for a hot rod compact of $24K to $35K. Like I mentioned previously, I see them in some pretty significant numbers. Even with the STI badge...

 

I see what your saying, but in reality the SVT Focus was not made to even compete with those guys. I am not sure what the base no-option model price was, but mine had an MSRP of $22k and was fully loaded (only option I did not get was the mp3 player) with sun roof, euro package, audiophile, hids, etc.. (which I got it for a little more then $18k with X-plan and rebates). The main cars that the SVT Focus was supposed to compete with was the other "hot" hatchbacks such as the Civic Si/RSX and later on the SRT-4 (which it only competed in handling/braking not acceleration). Personally I don't think it's fair to use a $30-35k car (STI or EVO) to compare it to a $18-22k car, the WRX is even significantly more expensive then the SVT Focus (base price of $24.5k, thats nearly ~5k base price difference or ~%28 more), but I think that comparision is at least a lot more realistic.

 

However, I do think the perception is the SVT Focus was meant to compete with all versions of the WRX, EVO's, and SRT-4's and Ford would have done themself good to have placed the SVT Focus in a position to compete with those cars. I would have gladly paid another $5k or so if that meant the SVT Focus was at least competitive.

 

I do believe Ford's perception that they have of themselves needs to change. More so with SVT...SVT should not mean value performance, which is what they've been producing with fair success most notably the first generation of the Ford Lightning. This value performance should come in a lower package, if need be. Otherwise the SVT should be a high performance stock racer.

 

I agree with you that svt should be more of the image such as the RS in Europe (generally thought to be more a street legal race car then sport tuned variant, for instance that RS was supposed to be 300hp/AWD not 212hp/FWD) but it would be nice for them to cover the range a little better also. For example I could see Ford doing a ST version of the Fusion, with the new 3.5L tuned for premium gas making around 280-300hp and then the SVT version making ~350hp. The ST could be more sports luxury and the SVT could be more race car. If they do this with all the SVT variants out there then Ford would start to change their image, at least relating to performance, a lot for the good. Right now SVT seems to do very good at hitting the middle of these two but I don't think that's what people are looking for.

 

Ford has a hard enough time with getting products (desirable products at that) to 3 domestic brands.

 

Hopefully that is changing, the Milan and Zephyr seem to be off to a decent start.

[Max]

I see what your saying, but in reality the SVT Focus was not made to even compete with those guys. I am not sure what the base no-option model price was, but mine had an MSRP of $22k and was fully loaded (only option I did not get was the mp3 player) with sun roof, euro package, audiophile, hids, etc.. (which I got it for a little more then $18k with X-plan and rebates). The main cars that the SVT Focus was supposed to compete with was the other "hot" hatchbacks such as the Civic Si/RSX and later on the SRT-4 (which it only competed in handling/braking not acceleration). Personally I don't think it's fair to use a $30-35k car (STI or EVO) to compare it to a $18-22k car, the WRX is even significantly more expensive then the SVT Focus (base price of $24.5k, thats nearly ~5k base price difference or ~%28 more), but I think that comparision is at least a lot more realistic.

 

Wasn't really citing the Subie and Mitsu models for realistic comparisons to the Focus, more like justification of a higher level Focus. If Ford were to acutally consider such an idea, that there is a market for such a Focus if done right etc... Hopefully, Ford is considering it, but we'll see as their corporate and brand health improve.

 

Do you have, or know the numbers on the European Cosworth Escort? I thought I had them saved along with a few pictures on my computer, can't seem to find them though. :o

[mjones302]

Ok I see that, I think Ford's problem is that they did not understand the concept of premium "small cars" in the US. They sell well in Europe, and a lot of people seem to like Euro cars, so why not I say. I think Ford is changing their stance on this with all of this car talk, we'll see how things go.

 

I don't much about production Cosworths except the Sierra RS Cosworth variant (1985) originally made 204hp and was the first production car to make more then 100hp/L (2.0L). I do know that they are hits in Europe and there is some insane modified versions over there, I have seen 600+hp AWD versions for instance.

 

Here are some links:

http://www.wrc-cosworth.org/dv/history/history.html

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/Cosworth/Cosworth1.html

http://www.fasterfords.dk/escort/escort_cos_history.htm

 

I've tried to find one over here before, but all the decent ones are way out of my price range

[calypsocoral]

Ford technically has an AWD performance car-- it's called the Mazdaspeed6, but I digress...

 

I certainly wouldn't mind finding that car's powertrain in an SVT Fusion, nor would I mind finding a 3.5L V6 sending 280 or so horses to all four wheels...

 

What I would like to see most of all is an SVT Five Hundred. Bear with me here-- let's put on some subtle, yet cool, bodywork, add a rear-biased AWD unit, and put that transverse-mounted 4.4L Yamaha V8 under the hood. That thing would, at least in terms of performance, give the Audi A8 a run for its money...

[NickF1011]

Ford technically has an AWD performance car-- it's called the Mazdaspeed6, but I digress...

 

I certainly wouldn't mind finding that car's powertrain in an SVT Fusion, nor would I mind finding a 3.5L V6 sending 280 or so horses to all four wheels...

 

What I would like to see most of all is an SVT Five Hundred. Bear with me here-- let's put on some subtle, yet cool, bodywork, add a rear-biased AWD unit, and put that transverse-mounted 4.4L Yamaha V8 under the hood. That thing would, at least in terms of performance, give the Audi A8 a run for its money...

 

With the direction SVT is going these days, a turbocharged 2.3 would simply be inadequate for the performance people expect from them now. Nothing short of a supercharged 3.5 would do in my opinion.

 

Your idea on the SVT Five Hundred is more in line with what I'd expect, but I'd like to see them shove a mod motor in there instead. :D

[calypsocoral]

With the direction SVT is going these days, a turbocharged 2.3 would simply be inadequate for the performance people expect from them now. Nothing short of a supercharged 3.5 would do in my opinion.

 

Your idea on the SVT Five Hundred is more in line with what I'd expect, but I'd like to see them shove a mod motor in there instead. :D

 

Hi Nick,

 

I might agree with you on the MOD motor, if it weren't for the fact that the 4.4L Yamaha has a narrower cylinder angle... and there really isn't a heckuva lot of room under the hood of any D3-based car. I remember reading somewhere that even the Duratec 30 was a bit of a tight fit...

 

Keep in mind that Volvo designed the platform with transverse I6's as their primary powertrain choice.

[NickF1011]

Hi Nick,

 

I might agree with you on the MOD motor, if it weren't for the fact that the 4.4L Yamaha has a narrower cylinder angle... and there really isn't a heckuva lot of room under the hood of any D3-based car. I remember reading somewhere that even the Duratec 30 was a bit of a tight fit...

 

Keep in mind that Volvo designed the platform with transverse I6's as their primary powertrain choice.

 

True, but by the time any SVT Five Hundred would possibly arrive, there's a good chance the D3 architecture will have changed quite a bit. I'm HOPING they are already making changes to the front subframe to allow more engine room for the Lincoln variants. A 4.4 V8 isn't going to cut it in a fullsize Lincoln unless it has some form of forced induction.

[mjones302]

Ford technically has an AWD performance car-- it's called the Mazdaspeed6, but I digress...

 

I certainly wouldn't mind finding that car's powertrain in an SVT Fusion, nor would I mind finding a 3.5L V6 sending 280 or so horses to all four wheels...

 

What I would like to see most of all is an SVT Five Hundred. Bear with me here-- let's put on some subtle, yet cool, bodywork, add a rear-biased AWD unit, and put that transverse-mounted 4.4L Yamaha V8 under the hood. That thing would, at least in terms of performance, give the Audi A8 a run for its money...

 

I like the mazdaspeed 6 but its not quite on par with the EVO or STI, which is more the direction I am wanting the SVT Fusion to go. The Mazdaspeed 6 is more of a luxury AWD performance car so to speak, it's heavier and is such a limited production I am guessing the aftermarket will not be doing much to help.

 

I really hope they do a turbo 3.5L in the SVT Fusion, the 2.3 is a nice engine but I don't think the cost to get it to support 300+hp would be worth the effort, especially when the 3.5L is rumored to be able to make near 300hp without forced induction (direct injection and tuning for premium fuel is what I was hearing). It should be quite simple to get a safe and very reliable 350hp from the 3.5L, which is more the target I think they should shoot for.

[calypsocoral]

I like the mazdaspeed 6 but its not quite on par with the EVO or STI, which is more the direction I am wanting the SVT Fusion to go.

 

Let's see what happens with the MazdaSpeed3, since the Focus is pretty out-dated-- even Mitsubishi's Lancer is getting a brand-spanking-new platform for 2007...

 

Anyway, I'd expect the MazdaSpeed3 to be a little closer to the Lancer Evolution and Impreza WRX-STI, though it still might not match up, since Mazda will likely try to keep the car affordable (something you really can't say for the EVO or STI).

 

True, but by the time any SVT Five Hundred would possibly arrive, there's a good chance the D3 architecture will have changed quite a bit. I'm HOPING they are already making changes to the front subframe to allow more engine room for the Lincoln variants. A 4.4 V8 isn't going to cut it in a fullsize Lincoln unless it has some form of forced induction.

 

Well, the 4.4L Yamaha makes 311 horses in the XC-90. If Ford does re-do the front sub-frame, they can make allowances for a better intake manifold, ease some exhaust back-pressure, and push the horsepower close to 330, which should be more than enough for an LS replacement, and should be adequate (at the very least) for the Continental.

 

Also keep in mind that this 330-hp Continental will likely be lighter than the 340-hp Chrysler 300C, even with AWD.

 

Or, perhaps this new rumored Ford V8 can be a bored-and-stroked version of this 4.4L?

[NickF1011]

Let's see what happens with the MazdaSpeed3, since the Focus is pretty out-dated-- even Mitsubishi's Lancer is getting a brand-spanking-new platform for 2007...

 

Anyway, I'd expect the MazdaSpeed3 to be a little closer to the Lancer Evolution and Impreza WRX-STI, though it still might not match up, since Mazda will likely try to keep the car affordable (something you really can't say for the EVO or STI).

Well, the 4.4L Yamaha makes 311 horses in the XC-90. If Ford does re-do the front sub-frame, they can make allowances for a better intake manifold, ease some exhaust back-pressure, and push the horsepower close to 330, which should be more than enough for an LS replacement, and should be adequate (at the very least) for the Continental.

 

Also keep in mind that this 330-hp Continental will likely be lighter than the 340-hp Chrysler 300C, even with AWD.

 

Or, perhaps this new rumored Ford V8 can be a bored-and-stroked version of this 4.4L?

 

Yeah, it would be lighter than the 300C, but also have FAR less torque. You're just not going to get adequate torque from a 4.4 liter in a large car without forced induction. That 340 HP 300C also has gobs of torque thanks to its 5.7 liter engine.

[mjones302]

Yeah, it would be lighter than the 300C, but also have FAR less torque. You're just not going to get adequate torque from a 4.4 liter in a large car without forced induction. That 340 HP 300C also has gobs of torque thanks to its 5.7 liter engine.

 

How about the yamaha 4.4L w/twin screw blower? I am thinking a minimum of 420ft-lbs of torque and at least 400hp, that would make a very nice SVT Five Hundred IMHO and compete very nicely with the SRT-8 (should be faster due to lower weight). Smaller displacement engine would allow for decent mpg, and blower would offer all the peformance you want when needed.

 

So whats going on with the Mazdaspeed 3? I keep hearing that this will be a cool car, but what makes it cool? I know that Volvo is supposed to be coming with a C30, basically a Focus ST for the US, is that what the Mazdaspeed 3 is going to be? Supposedly 250hp/AWD using the Volvo 5 cylinder, rumor is a 300hp R version might also make the list.

 

 

I still think Ford needs a performance car in their small-midsize car lineup though, rather then letting Mazda and Volvo have all the fun.

[NickF1011]

I still think Ford needs a performance car in their small-midsize car lineup though, rather then letting Mazda and Volvo have all the fun.

 

Agreed. It's going to be a few years though. And it remains to be seen how durable the new FWD/AWD 6-speed auto is going to be. Last thing I want to see is Ford releasing a great car but then having it die a painful death because of premature transmission failure. It's supposed to be rated for 300 HP and 280 lb-ft torque, which isn't really a whole lot.

[mjones302]

Agreed. It's going to be a few years though. And it remains to be seen how durable the new FWD/AWD 6-speed auto is going to be. Last thing I want to see is Ford releasing a great car but then having it die a painful death because of premature transmission failure. It's supposed to be rated for 300 HP and 280 lb-ft torque, which isn't really a whole lot.

 

I agree, the last thing we need is some sort of issue with the launch of such a car. However, I am hoping very badly that they do not use the Ford/GM auto in such a car, I expect they will offer a manual trans. If not I don't think they will be catering to their audience. SVT should be more race then luxury, leave luxury up to a SVT mercury or lincoln or something along those lines.

[mjones302]

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=10841

 

Seriously, why can we not get this here in the states? There is plenty of room for a hot sport compact from Ford, they are going to have to boost the Mustang up anyways with the upcoming Camaro and possibly Challengers having over 400hp.

Edited January 10, 2006 by mjones302

[666COS]

the answer you are searching for is at www.drakenent.com

 

this will open a can of worms!!!! :P

[mjones302]

the answer you are searching for is at www.drakenent.com

 

this will open a can of worms!!!! :P

 

Yeah yeah I am about to come to the conclusion that the sortuf car I want can only be had by either A] Moving very far away or B] Going with someone other then Ford

 

I have heard of folks trying to bring the euro focus or euro escorts over here, all of them have basically had to pay way more then the car was worth to even get it done. One guy had a RS focus here, but could only register it to drive it like 1 week of the year legally (to car shows).

[plev72]

I'd buy a Fusion AWD w/ a 6-speed. As it stands now, projecting my next car it looks like I have a choice between the G35 4-door and the MazdaSpeed Mazda 6. A Fusion w/ the upcoming 3.5l making 260+ HP would probably get the job done w/out making it an SVT (and thus adding the dealer's "premium" (just looked at the MazdaSpeed - +$180 for pin striping (Me: $180 for pinstriping? I don't see any pinstriping - Salesman: They aren't on yet, this way you can choose the color - Me: I know, I choose "delete item, save $180!) and something along the lines of +$1800 - $1850 "dealer premium") --- and then an FUSION SVT version w/ a turbo or supercharged version of the 3.5 l and ~375 HP...

 

Ford technically has an AWD performance car-- it's called the Mazdaspeed6, but I digress...

 

I certainly wouldn't mind finding that car's powertrain in an SVT Fusion, nor would I mind finding a 3.5L V6 sending 280 or so horses to all four wheels...

 

What I would like to see most of all is an SVT Five Hundred. Bear with me here-- let's put on some subtle, yet cool, bodywork, add a rear-biased AWD unit, and put that transverse-mounted 4.4L Yamaha V8 under the hood. That thing would, at least in terms of performance, give the Audi A8 a run for its money...