Ford S-Max MPV returns 67 US MPG

[LSFan00]

It's just a 3rd party proof-of-concept demonstrator, essentially. (Built by vendors who want to provide the components.)

 

As battery/capacitor chargers turbines make a lot of sense in that they are very efficient at a static speed.

[Nick Martin]

I always thought that we would be driving jet cars by the year 2000. This is refreshing.

[MY93SHO]

For a 25 hp engine I will divid by 8 = $2,100. Then you add the cost of the 175 hp electric motor and generator. Then you add the cost of the batteries.

 

How much would a 25 hp briggs and straton engine cost?

 

On Northern Tool's website a 23hp Briggs is on sale for $1350.00/regularly $1650.00 A 26hp is $2600.00

 

A Kohler 25hp varies from $1900 to $2000.00

[battyr]

On Northern Tool's website a 23hp Briggs is on sale for $1350.00/regularly $1650.00 A 26hp is $2600.00

 

A Kohler 25hp varies from $1900 to $2000.00

 

If Ford wanted to buy or build a few million of these engines, they would get a much better price.

Edited June 14, 2009 by battyr

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Once you get down into the "micro-axial flow turbine" range with less than 100 HP, the plumbing needs tend to be somewhat more relaxed. As long as you have a nice straight path leading up to the turbine and exiting the back of it, and a sufficient amount of inlet size and outlet size, there shouldn't be much of an issue. It gets even easier when you are working with a constant speed turbine as you just need to tune the inlet and outlet for the speed desired. It can slow down spooling up a bit, but, that's not too much of an issue. The issue will be how to fuel it. Natural Gas would be best from an emissions point of view. Diesel would be best from an availability point of view. You could use regular unleaded pump gas, but, I think that might not be as ideal. IT could burn E85 or heck, even E-100 (turbine engines can run on pretty much anything that has a half way decent combustion ability. If you could pulverize coal into a fine powder, they'd run on that too...).

 

I'd think that since most homes have natural gas service, and this is a series hybrid concept, if you configured it such that:

1) The battery pack in the vehicle could recharge overnight from your hosue current

2) The natural gas storage tank could be replenished from your home natural gas service

 

This could be both convenient and efficient. For a commuter that commutes no more than 30-40 miles round trip, it would rarely dip into the natural gas tank anyway. That tank wouldn't have to be that big as this would be a fairly efficient system anyway. I'd probably size up the turbine a bit to be about 40-50 hp to provide for a more reasonable performance envelope when the battery runs out. Even then, it'd be fairly efficient. This is a system that I'd be VERY interested into buying into, to the tune of paying a 10% premium for. I could couple this with a solar panel set for my house to provide the juice to recharge the car at night (it charges up its own batteries during the day, and they discharge into the car at night) and after the initial investment, I'd only have to pay a bit more each month in my natural gas bill.

[battyr]

Once you get down into the "micro-axial flow turbine" range with less than 100 HP, the plumbing needs tend to be somewhat more relaxed. As long as you have a nice straight path leading up to the turbine and exiting the back of it, and a sufficient amount of inlet size and outlet size, there shouldn't be much of an issue. It gets even easier when you are working with a constant speed turbine as you just need to tune the inlet and outlet for the speed desired. It can slow down spooling up a bit, but, that's not too much of an issue. The issue will be how to fuel it. Natural Gas would be best from an emissions point of view. Diesel would be best from an availability point of view. You could use regular unleaded pump gas, but, I think that might not be as ideal. IT could burn E85 or heck, even E-100 (turbine engines can run on pretty much anything that has a half way decent combustion ability. If you could pulverize coal into a fine powder, they'd run on that too...).

 

I'd think that since most homes have natural gas service, and this is a series hybrid concept, if you configured it such that:

1) The battery pack in the vehicle could recharge overnight from your hosue current

2) The natural gas storage tank could be replenished from your home natural gas service

 

This could be both convenient and efficient. For a commuter that commutes no more than 30-40 miles round trip, it would rarely dip into the natural gas tank anyway. That tank wouldn't have to be that big as this would be a fairly efficient system anyway. I'd probably size up the turbine a bit to be about 40-50 hp to provide for a more reasonable performance envelope when the battery runs out. Even then, it'd be fairly efficient. This is a system that I'd be VERY interested into buying into, to the tune of paying a 10% premium for. I could couple this with a solar panel set for my house to provide the juice to recharge the car at night (it charges up its own batteries during the day, and they discharge into the car at night) and after the initial investment, I'd only have to pay a bit more each month in my natural gas bill.

 

I see little value in having two different fuel that both require slow overnight charging. One fuel should give the option of a fast refill at your local service station.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

slow overnight charging means no expensive home modifications to support it. Ask for a bigger line from your gas company, get a refill control unit that can regulate things properly, and you can refill it in five minutes from home. I was trying to keep things as inexpensive as possible for the average consumer.

[battyr]

slow overnight charging means no expensive home modifications to support it. Ask for a bigger line from your gas company, get a refill control unit that can regulate things properly, and you can refill it in five minutes from home. I was trying to keep things as inexpensive as possible for the average consumer.

If I just want to commute to work, I would just get a bigger battery and forget the turbine engine.

 

If I want to take an extended trip then I want to quickly refill at a service station and go on my way. On the other hand there is no reason why you can't quickly fill up with Natural gas at a service station. Especially if you don't need much fuel.

 

IMHO consumers want vehicles that they can use for extended day trips and long road trips. Economically people only need a commuter car and rent a different vehicle only when they need it. But that is not the way they they want it.

[mustang_sallad]

I'd think that since most homes have natural gas service, and this is a series hybrid concept, if you configured it such that:

1) The battery pack in the vehicle could recharge overnight from your hosue current

2) The natural gas storage tank could be replenished from your home natural gas service

 

This could be both convenient and efficient. For a commuter that commutes no more than 30-40 miles round trip, it would rarely dip into the natural gas tank anyway. That tank wouldn't have to be that big as this would be a fairly efficient system anyway. I'd probably size up the turbine a bit to be about 40-50 hp to provide for a more reasonable performance envelope when the battery runs out. Even then, it'd be fairly efficient. This is a system that I'd be VERY interested into buying into, to the tune of paying a 10% premium for. I could couple this with a solar panel set for my house to provide the juice to recharge the car at night (it charges up its own batteries during the day, and they discharge into the car at night) and after the initial investment, I'd only have to pay a bit more each month in my natural gas bill.

 

I'd say you just about nailed it. 50hp sounds about right too for average cruising power requirements. Might get a little swamped in stop and go traffic though. I'm sure the fella's at GM are working on this very issue in sizing the range extender for the Volt.

 

Is it possible for a turbine to change fuel on the go? That'd be awesome if you could just fuel up on whatever's available, although you'd probably at the very least need a separate tank so as to not mix the fuels. Or maybe that doesn't even matter? I'm sure gas mixed with diesel will still burn.

[mustang_sallad]

I'd think that since most homes have natural gas service, and this is a series hybrid concept, if you configured it such that:

1) The battery pack in the vehicle could recharge overnight from your hosue current

2) The natural gas storage tank could be replenished from your home natural gas service

 

This could be both convenient and efficient. For a commuter that commutes no more than 30-40 miles round trip, it would rarely dip into the natural gas tank anyway. That tank wouldn't have to be that big as this would be a fairly efficient system anyway. I'd probably size up the turbine a bit to be about 40-50 hp to provide for a more reasonable performance envelope when the battery runs out. Even then, it'd be fairly efficient. This is a system that I'd be VERY interested into buying into, to the tune of paying a 10% premium for. I could couple this with a solar panel set for my house to provide the juice to recharge the car at night (it charges up its own batteries during the day, and they discharge into the car at night) and after the initial investment, I'd only have to pay a bit more each month in my natural gas bill.

 

I'd say you just about nailed it. 50hp sounds about right too for average cruising power requirements. Might get a little swamped in stop and go traffic though. I'm sure the fella's at GM are working on this very issue in sizing the range extender for the Volt.

 

Is it possible for a turbine to change fuel on the go? That'd be awesome if you could just fuel up on whatever's available, although you'd probably at the very least need a separate tank so as to not mix the fuels. Or maybe that doesn't even matter? I'm sure gas mixed with diesel will still burn.

[battyr]

I'd say you just about nailed it. 50hp sounds about right too for average cruising power requirements. Might get a little swamped in stop and go traffic though. I'm sure the fella's at GM are working on this very issue in sizing the range extender for the Volt.

 

Is it possible for a turbine to change fuel on the go? That'd be awesome if you could just fuel up on whatever's available, although you'd probably at the very least need a separate tank so as to not mix the fuels. Or maybe that doesn't even matter? I'm sure gas mixed with diesel will still burn.

 

The Optimum size of engine depends of the size of the battery. If the battery and electric motor is big enough, then any size motor would be large enough to extend the life of the battery. I other words, you run 100% from the battery most of the time. On the other hand you can use a larger engine and save money by using a smaller battery.

 

The turbine must be designed to run best on one type of fuel. Switching between Jet fuel, kerosene or diesel should be little problem. Switching between other fuel would be more difficult. Just like switching between natural gas and propane requires changes in a BBQ. While a turbine can burn just about any fuel, I really don't know what would be required to build a flex fuel turbine. Changing fuel could cause loss of power, loss of efficiency, engine running too hot, engine runing too rich or lean.

[LSFan00]

HP doesn't matter really at all. Low end torque is really all that matters for passenger cars usually (cruising end torque from a turbine sure ain't a problem). For proof that a reasonable amount of low end torque can be had from a turbine research the 60-ton M1 Abrams tank. In fact, the (now cancelled) next-generation Abrams engine was already evaluated as a hybrid propulsion candidate. 1 MW of electricity in under a cubic meter?

 

The issue is that while the newest turbine engines have impressive improvements in cost, efficiency, and reliability vs. their predecessors they still are losing out to modern diesels quite regularly.

 

Honeywell International Engines and Systems and General Electric were also to finalize development of a new LV100-5 gas turbine engine. The goals as noted by GE are an engine that offers replacement with no to very few structural modifications, reduces the parts count by 43%, improves reliability by over 400%; and addresses the M1’s current poor fuel mileage even for a tank by offering a 50% reduction in fuel consumption at idle. This would increase the tank’s operating range by up to 70 Miles with current fuel tanks, while still offering 1,500 hp to drive the M1 Abrams along at its accustomed lightning-fast clip – speeds over 60 miles/ 100km per hour have been reported. With the demise of the Crusader program, however, this particular aspect of the program appears to have been shelved for now.

[mustang_sallad]

The Optimum size of engine depends of the size of the battery. If the battery and electric motor is big enough, then any size motor would be large enough to extend the life of the battery. I other words, you run 100% from the battery most of the time. On the other hand you can use a larger engine and save money by using a smaller battery.

 

 

If we're talking about a PHEV with significant all-electric range followed by indefinite charge sustaining driving, then engine size does not depend on battery size at all, but rather on the vehicle itself and the likely drive cycle. What you described is actually like the race car I built at school for the SAE Formula Hybrid competition. (you can see an Autoblog post on my car here if you're curious). What you described is a charge depleting hybrid, in that the batteries and e-motors are plenty powerful enough to move the car about, but the engine is only there to help the battery last longer. In that case, yes the engine can be as small as you want. Or in the case of my car, 7hp engine, supplementing an electric drivetrain that's good for a peak of 36hp and that averages about 14hp. So our engine supplies about half our average consumption, meaning our batteries drain about half as quickly as they would without the engine.

 

To pull off a charge depleting hybrid like that though, you need to have good information on the expected drive cycle, because you're car won't work well once the batteries finally are drained and since your engine is smaller than your average driving requirements. I don't think any manufacturer will go this route, it's too complicated and unclear for consumers. You're range then totally depends on how fast you're driving, and if you take any breaks where your engine can keep up. I think it's easier to either just say its a BEV with a more or less given range (varies a little bit with driving style) or to say its an extended range EV where you have a finite EV range, and then you can drive till your heats content with the engine running until you run out of gas.

 

My car at the Formula Hybrid competition this year became an extra depleting hybrid when the shitty little engine crapped out and was only giving about 3hp instead of 7hp. In our case, we know our race is 22km so we can size our engine and battery such that 7hp is enough to make our battery last just till the end, with a bit of lee way. But at 3hp, our battery drained much more quickly, and eventually we were totally relying on the output of our engine, which was now less than a quarter of our typical average driving consumption. Lame! Still pulled off a 4th place finish though!

 

Anyway, all that to say that I think in general, when we talk about PHEVs, we're probably referring to a vehicle with a certain all electric range, followed by a charge sustaining mode, where the engine must be sized to the average driving requirements for that vehicle. I'm guessing 50hp is about right for a Fusion, although GM seems to be aiming a little higher for the Volt.

 

Thanks for the info on flex fuel turbines though.

[mustang_sallad]

HP doesn't matter really at all. Low end torque is really all that matters for passenger cars usually (cruising end torque from a turbine sure ain't a problem).

 

 

If you're talking about something that's only generating electricity, then torque doesn't matter at all, HP is all that matters. It can be a fast spinning turbine with low torque, or a slow turning diesel generator with high torque, as long as you get energy going into the batteries at the right rate. I don't think anybody was implying using a turbine in anything but a series hybrid, unless you wanna get wacky with CVTs and stuff like that. The idea of using a turbine is that it would enjoy the constant speed operation allowed by a series hybrid configuration. In that set up, the only thing that needs to have good low-end torque are the drive motors, and that's obviously not an issue for electric motors.

[battyr]

HP doesn't matter really at all. Low end torque is really all that matters for passenger cars usually (cruising end torque from a turbine sure ain't a problem). For proof that a reasonable amount of low end torque can be had from a turbine research the 60-ton M1 Abrams tank. In fact, the (now cancelled) next-generation Abrams engine was already evaluated as a hybrid propulsion candidate. 1 MW of electricity in under a cubic meter?

 

The issue is that while the newest turbine engines have impressive improvements in cost, efficiency, and reliability vs. their predecessors they still are losing out to modern diesels quite regularly.

 

 

If you are charging a battery, then torque means nothing. HP give you Amps to charge with.

 

I would think there is major differences betwee a M1 tank engine and a 20 hp micro turbine but some of the technology can be applied. There are some very cheap micro turbines, but I doubt that they are as reliable as the big ones.