KYSkipper

Ok, you can stop now. I don't need an extended warranty on my 2004 F250 that you couldn't/wouldn't fix under the factory warranty. I don't want any more calls, letters, or contact from people who you evidently "Shared" my name and address with. I don't need your dang warranty. The Dodge Dealer I traded that pile of junk to might know someone who does, but it darn sure isn't me. Skip

Ok, you can stop now. I don't need an extended warranty on my 2004 F250 that you couldn't/wouldn't fix under the factory warranty. I don't want any more calls, letters, or contact from people who you evidently "Shared" my name and address with. I don't need your dang warranty. The Dodge Dealer I traded that pile of junk to might know someone who does, but it darn sure isn't me. Skip

You all want to blame the dealers and the vehicle owners for your part in the problem, and that's not right. A mechanic's job is to find a broken part and replace it. Nowhere in that job description is it the mechanic's job to engineer the system, that's the manufacturer's responsibility. Mechanic's aren't design engineers or machinists, and to jump on them because they can't fix a system that was faulty in it's engineering from the start is way out of bounds. You say take it to another diesel mechanic. That shows exactly how ignorant you are of this product. The 6.0 liter was designed to NOT be serviced by anyone other than a Ford Dealer. For what it's worth, the Cummins in the Dodge isn't designed that way. The Cummins is a common engine. It's in boats, busses, larger trucks, equipment, and who knows what all else. Other than a few sensors here and there and the plumbing to put it in a pickup, it's the same motor. The 6.0 is not a common engine. The version in an F250 is a Ford only engine. Yes, there is a version that International puts in some light truck, but it is far from the one that's in the Ford trucks. The International version only makes 250 hp. The entire top end of the 6.0 in the Fords is a Ford design not International. The fuel system is completely different on a VT365 than it is on a 6.0. About the only common thing they share is the middle section of the block and similar heads. They fact that you dont know that you can't work on one of these engines very much without Ford's special tools proves your ignorance of the product. One local shop that takes care of a lot of fleet vehicles, the owner has told me a few times that now that these engines are running out of warranty he is considering the investment in training and tooling to work on them, but the cost is very high and he's not real sure he wants people mad at him when he can't fix these messes. The fact is, for most serious work on a 6.0, it requires removal of the cab. That's not something that can be done in a couple of hours. Removal and replacement at best is half a days job. Nobody wants to pay for cab removal at $80 an hour. Your talking about $400 worth of labor that has nothing to do with fixing the engine, just getting to it in order to fix it. Guess what happens if you go through the cab removal process, fix the engine, put the cab back on and find out something else isn't exactly right? From what I've heard, it only gets worse with the 6.4. You need to learn who your customers are and how it is you make a living. The UAW doesn't guarantee you a job and neither does Ford Motor Company. Your dealers and the people that buy vehicles from your dealers are who makes sure you have a job. You and Ford ought to be kissing your dealer's feet. They are the ones that sell these vehicles for you. If there are no sales, there's certainly no reason to have a manufacturing plant or employees. If you expect to market $45,000 + trucks, you cant tick off the final buyers by treating them the way I got treated and refusing to do what is necessary to solve a problem with a product. The fact that my dealership and I ended up having words over this mess wasn't entirely their fault. While I felt like they could have been more helpful, it wasn't more helpful to fix the truck, it was more helpful in dealing with Ford Motor Company to get that truck replaced or the engine replaced or whatever was necessary to put a permanent end to the problems. Companies that take care of business get a good name and loyal buyers of their products. Those loyal buyers are worth more than 10 30 second ads during the Superbowl. Skipper

You've obviously never tried to fill up one of those bastard trucks. A couple of the service stations around here have 4x4 blocks beside the diesel pumps to pull the Fords up on one side so you can put fuel in the tank. Bull crap. I took it to more than one non-Ford diesel tech. For what it's worth, I've been qualified enough to keep my 1995 7.3 on the road since I've owned it. It's never been to a dealer shop. I did take the EGR off this 6 liter and look down in the intake and saw what the problem was. No way in hell an engine can run with that much carbon in it. You could have dumped a charcoal bag in it and it wouldn't have made much difference to the mess in there. No, I'm not going to spend my time pulling a cab off a truck so I can get the rest of the top of that engine off to clean it out. I bought a new truck so it would be someone else's place to work on it. My 95 is out of warranty, I can work on it all I want to, that's why I bought the new one and intended to retire the old one. The point in owning a new vehicle is having one you don't have to work on. From the sound of things, you are probably a 5 star employee for Ford. Your attitude is about like everyone else's I've talked to in that outfit. Skipper

It could be a lot of people are saying, "In 03 and 04 Ford let me pay $40,000 to become a member of the Research and Development team for the 6.0. This time around, I believe I'll just sit the R&D out and let someone else do that." I think people want to see several someone elses with 70,000 to 90,000 miles on these. Skipper

I don't see why the Dodge would have been the #3 truck. I guess to a bunch of guys who drive a Honda on a daily basis maybe, but to someone who has driven pickup trucks since he was 14 years old I believe I'm as qualified as they were. First off, there's quite a bit of difference in "Carrying" and "Pulling" weight. I have personally put right at 5000 pound of coal on an F250, I can tell you certain, it wasn't one of these newer ones. This was a 72 model with a 1 ton axle under it and extra heavy overloads on it. We had 10" sideboards on it to hold the coal. I seriously doubt the ability of an F250, Chevy 2500, or Dodge either one to haul 2 tons in the bed. For one thing, 2 tons of most things won't fit in a short bed at all certainly not coal or gravel. I have had about 3500 lbs of gravel in my 1995 F250 and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to try running it 70 mph loaded like that. Towing is another matter. The average 21' bass boat probably weighs close to 4000 lbs rigged and loaded. Towing 4000 lbs with a 3/4 ton truck should be no task at all. I've towed in excess of 10,000 lbs with both of my F250's. That's light compared to what some tow with theirs. I know a few individuals towing farm equipment, cattle, and farm products with weights exceeding 20,000. One guy I know has a corn wagon he built from the bed and frame of a tandem Mack Truck. I don't know exactly what it weighs loaded, but I would estimate 15 ton would be on the light side. He has used Dodges for years pulling that thing. I've seen them so loaded that the front axle on the pickup was barely on the ground. Now, that said, I looked at a Chevy Duramax, but I didn't think much of it. For one thing, it's difficult to find a Chevy with a Manual tranny. The Allison is nice, but if I have to mess with 3 buttons and 3 drive positions on the handle, I'd just assume mash a clutch and stick it in gear. When I did find a manual I discovered Chevy no longer thinks synchronizers are necessary in manual trannys. I also noticed the Duramax being a lot like the Ford. "Turbo Lag" or whatever you all come up with to describe an engine that won't go when you mash the fuel pedal. Dodge's Cummins doesn't have that problem. It's ready to roll when you are. Dodge's clutch system is sweet. I don't know what it was with that 6.0, I guess the Dual Mass Flywheel that they finally figured out wasn't a good idea. But everytime you were in stop and go traffic it'd sound like the clutch was going to fall out of it when you pushed it in. The Dodge is as solid as I've ever driven. There's no rattle to it at all. Did I mention the Cummins is getting 19 mpg. That's at least 2 mpg better than the Ford ever got and 5 mpg better than it was getting when I traded it. That's what? A 33% fuel savings. I did fill up today and the Ford advertised a 29 gallon tank, but it was very difficult to put more than 24 gallons in it. The Dodge advertises 32 gallons. I stuck the fuel handle in it and it cut off at 30.5 gallons and easily took another .6 gallons after I let the air settle out. Combine the extra fuel with 33% better milage, that's about 260 miles per tank better than Ford. For what it's worth, the F250 started out at 8 mpg on the first tank and it took about 2000 miles for it to break in and get it's best of 17 mpg. Dodge's Cummins has never been accused of lacking power by anyone that I know of. They are quite a bit cheaper to work on than the 6.0's. A simple oil change needs a gallon less oil than does a 6 liter. They only put that same engine in everything from boats to tractors to cranes buses and pickups. As far as that test goes, who cares what a pickup truck will run on a quarter mile drag strip or how fast it is 0 to 60. Notice at what RPM Ford measures the torque on a 6.0. It's 2000 RPMs. People don't pull out onto the highway with a loaded truck with the engine spooled to 2000 RPM's. Dodge measures the Cummins torque at 1600 RPM's which is a little more reasonable. The fact is, an inline 6 cylinder will always out torque a V8. Ever wonder why a 300 6 cylinder was always offered in an F250 but a 302 V8 wasn't? The 302 would out horspower the 300/6 but the 6 cylinder would get a load moving the 302 wouldnt budge. The longer stroke wins every time in that category. Like I said before, the only thing noticably lacking from Dodge is running boards, a tailgate protector, and bed caps. What was that about Ford supplying a truck with 430 gears in it to pull against trucks with 373 gears? Those 430 gears ought to keep it under 75 mph permanently. Skipper

When you find another mechanic that has the $150,000 worth of specialized tools and computers to work on these Ford engines, let the Dodge dealer know, he'd like to know how to get that mess started so he can sell it. Skipper

Ford pay another shop, bull hockey. They wouldn't pay the wrecker to tow it back to their shop when it quit 4 days after they worked on it. If the problems were that well known, Ford should have done some more research on the problems, solved them and then sold trucks with that engine in it that was dependable. Not sold it, then figure out it wouldn't run and costs a shit load to fix. Skipper

Good luck on the new truck. Poor ole Earnie Fletcher has been beat to death, why Boo him? Skipper

I did want it fixed, tried everything I knew to try to get it fixed, it never worked out. When you have a mechanic and Ford engineer tell you they have no idea how to fix it and that the 6.0 is just a piece of junk, I have no idea what else you do other than get ticked off over the money you lost on your purchase. The fact is, it could have been fixed and both that mechanic and engineer knew what to do to fix it, but Ford and it's cheap skate ways didn't want to pay to do it right and would just authorize as little as possible to attempt to get it back on the road and out of their hair. The way I see it, Ford cost me about $25,000. No, I'm not going to forget about it and it may be a while before I let Ford forget about it. Skipper

Let's see, Someone on here advised me that I'd need to replace the spark plugs, spark plug wires and ignition system on my diesel engine. Excuse me If I'm still looking for qualified advice. I have had other diesel mechanics look at it. That's about all anyone other than a Ford garage can do with a 6.0. They are too damn complicated for the dealers to work on them with $150,000 worth of tools specially designed for working on that one engine much less anyone else. In all honesty, nobody other than a Ford Tech has any intention of pulling a cab off a truck just to work on the engine. The shops that regularly take care of my vehicles have very qualified mechanics. I took my truck to another Ford dealer, it ran 5 days that time instead of the 4 days it ran the time before. The one guy that advised me that they didn't want people like me driving Ford Trucks might have given the best advice. You might find in the near future I've gotten rid of my 95 F250 and my 03 Expedition and be done with Fords all together. The fact is, that Dodge 2500 with a Cummins that I'm driving now blows that F250 out of the water, it's not even a close comparison. Last night I went across the mountain and back and just to see if it would, I left it in high gear all the way up. I had absolutely no problem doing it. That switchback turn that I generally had to brake down to 20 mph in the Ford, the Dodge's superior suspension will handle it at 30, and unlike the Ford that I'd have had to drop back to 3rd gear on, I never pulled the Dodge out of Overdrive, the engine never lugged at all. Oh, that 8 mpg my Ford averaged on it's first tank on it's way to being broken in, or was that broken down, when it climbed up to 14 mpg, My Dodge is sitting on 18 mpg on the first tank right now. Comparison: Power: Dodge by far Economy: Dodge by a good bit Ride Quality: Dodge by a long shot Trim Pieces like Running boards and bed rail protection: Ford (Like a few hundred bucks won't cure that) Ford ought to spend about $40,000 on one of these Dodges and see if they can copy some of it. Skipper

I don't know about him, but that F250 of mine was not safe. It lost power and had a serious problem getting going from a dead stop. If you were pulling out into traffic on a 4 lane or some such you might and might not be able to get on out of the way to keep from getting ran over. Sometimes, you'd let the clutch out and it'd go on, sometimes it would hesitate for 10-15-20-who knows how many seconds. Then there was the stalling out deal when you'd let the clutch out and it'd quit because you could stomp the pedal to the floor and it wouldn't rev up. It did the stalling out trick twice on a set of railroad tracks, I just wish it hadn't started back the 3rd time and I'd left it there. Skipper

I know darn good and well they didn't use my Ford in that test. If they had, and S-10 would probably have out pulled it. Having driven both A Powerstroke and a Cummins, I can say without reservation, the Powerstroke couldn't keep up with the Cummin's smoke from 0 to 70. It might catch it after a while above 80 mph, but that's not relevant to most people's pickup truck driving habits or for that matter what the law allows on the highway. In an unofficial test (mine), the Dodge wins hands down. First of all, the Cummins is QUIET. The Powerstroke doesn't attempt to be quiet. You can actually hold a conversation in the Dodge, swing through the drive through and order a biscuit in the morning. Go to the bank or whatever. Dodges come with Michelin tires not Generals or Conti Traps or Pirelli's or whatever was cheaper this week. There's no comparrison between the Generals my F250 came with that would not stay balanced and the Michelins. The Dodge rides like a half ton. The Ford rode about the same as my 95 F250, and you definitely knew you were in a heavy truck. The front end on the Dodge doesn't shimmy on the road like a Ford, steering wheel doesn't shake, and it's smooth. Even with harder seats than the Ford, the Dodge offers a better ride not beating the dickens out of you. Guess what, the Dodge needs a Gallon less oil than the Ford, it's fuel filter is easily accessible without crawling under the truck, you won't dump fuel on yourself trying to change it. It has a normal lever to operate the water drain not a plug that takes a 6 mm allen head that can't accept a ratchet because it's too close to the drive shaft. No need to go to the Cummins place and buy a special plug to alleviate aggrivation draining the water, they've got it figured out. The air filter is toolless to remove and replace, easily done in a few minutes. You can see and put your hands on any part on that engine. There's no goam of wires, hoses, and coolant bottles on top of the motor. It doesn't appear that you have to take the cab off to do normal repair work. Fact is, I don't see a reason that you'd have to take the cab off at all. If you needed to, plenty of room to pull the engine. The first tank of fuel Through my F250 got less than 200 miles at about 8 mpg. Once broke in it climbed to almost 17 mpg if you babied it then when the engine started having problems it fell off to about 14 mpg and never recovered. The Dodge is getting right at 17 mpg so far according to the onboard computer. I suspect it'll eventually get 20 or so mpg. I've yet to see an F250 get that. My 95 gets 18.5 mpg but definitely not the 6.0. I do have to admit, Ford has an edge on accessories such as running boards, fender flares and bed caps. I guess money had to be spent somewhere. Not like this is something a few hundred bucks at the custom shop can't cure. Skipper

You ain't righ, just not right at all. Skipper

It doesn't need one, it runs. Skipper

Aside from the turbo problem that never was fixed, I believe this latest thing involves a loose fuel line somewhere or fitting somewhere. I suspect when they replaced the EGR cooler, they took something loose and didn't get it properly sealed. The reason for that suspision is the last 3 times I've not been able to start it, I took the cap off the top fuel filter and found it dry, turned the key on and pumped it full, put the cap back on and it started. Pretty much evident it had air in it's fuel system from somewhere. I did change the fuel filters last night, but still had the problem today. These 6 liters are real picky about a perfectly sealed fuel system. Found that out the second time I had the fuel filters changed and that shop didn't get the bottom cap seated just right. The once they towed it in, from the way they described it, it wasn't getting fuel, and the time I towed it, it definitely wasn't getting fuel. I don't mean this in a bad way toward the technicians, it's the way they are trained today. That said, today's technician relys 100% on a computer to tell them what's wrong, and they all too frequently don't use experience and mechanical knowledge to solve problems. As complicated at the 6.0's fuel system is, the computer isn't going to tell you which line is loose and leaking air. It probably read the ICP wasn't working, the sensor might work right if it was getting fuel instead of air to begin with. Common sense tells you that a diesel that's getting fuel and air has compression and is turning over will start. That's the beauty of diesel, there's no ignition system to drive you nuts with a bunch of electrical parts to go out. You pretty much assume it's getting air, so fuel becomes the logical place to look for an old school wrench. With the 6 liter having so much junk mounted all over the place and 43 miles of wiring and hoses it's not a simple thing to find an air leak either. You can't even begin to get to or see for that matter all of the fuel fittings not to mention the ones in the head that lead to the HUII injectors. At least with an old style common rail, you can probably find the leak easier. That's one advantage the Cummins has, you can pretty much get to and see every part of it when you open the hood, you don't have the radiator overflow sitting on top of the engine in the way not to mention gobs of other stuff. Skipper

It be over. You might hear from the next owner of that piece of junk, but not from me. I left it at the Dodge place. I may be poorer, but I'm done with that aggrivation. BTW: A computer has very little to do with a turbo that's vanes are stuck because of a misdesigned EGR system and this latest problem, air getting into the fuel lines from somewhere. Skipper

:shades: Skipper

Ford could have took care of this, and yes, I've tried everything I know how to try, and used suggestions and all I've gotten for it is a circle jerk that costs me more money each time. Meanwhile, a truck I bought for my business has been out of service approximately 5 months so far this year. I can't afford lawyers that charge $300 to write a letter that doesn't do diddly squat. I can't immagine what it would cost to actually take this thing to court, most likely more than I'd loose taking my loss on this truck and buying something else. Meanwhile, I'd have to put up with a work truck that may or may not get me to where I need to go and back. All I've gotten from Ford's employees is lip service. Hell, I could get the same line of BS at Wal Mart. Any manufacturer that treats customers that way and backs it's products with poor service the way Ford has backed this one will not stay in business. If their employees are dumb enough to ride the ship to the bottom and drown, then so be it. The smart thing to do would be to find a job somewhere else before the boat sinks to the bottom. There is no excuse for they way they are treating their truck customers with problems. Nobody should have to bring their lawyer with them to the mechanic shop to see to it that a vehicle is repaired or replaced. Common sense ought to prevail and reasonable settlements ought to be reached without a 20 round battle in the courthouse or some circle jerk with some advocate. I believe in doing what I say. If I tell you that I'm giving you a 100,000 mile warranty, I'd take care of business and not put it on my customer to force me to take care of business. Lets be honest, after 2 and a half years, that truck isn't repairable. To believe it is would require an idiot drinking Jim Jones' Koolaid. Yep, I'm going to loose 10's of thousands of dollars on this deal, but you can bet your bottom dollar, I'll cost Ford tripple that in sales. They do not give a hoot about me as a customer, and that is their right. It's also my right to not give a hoot about them. Skipper

The facts are, Kentucky's lemon law is 12,000 miles, that's it. It doesn't matter if the vehicle is still under warranty, it's 12,000 miles. I've talked to the BBB, Lemonlaw.whatever (they don't operate in Kentucky), and several lawyers. Nobody will touch it because 1. It would cost a fortune to fight the case even if they won 2. Given Kentucky's lax laws, they don't think they can win. The long and short is, there's nothing for me to do except loose about $20,000 on this deal and buy another truck. Well, Ford may not be willing to do squat for me, but I'm more than willing to share the story of how they treated me. You may not like hearing it, personally, I could care less. Remember, I'm that guy that has been buying Ford vehicles for 20 years. What do you want to bet in the next few days there will be 1 less Ford in my driveway and 1 more something else? Ford can file bankruptcy, go out of busines, jump in Lake Michigan, I could care less. You can cop that attitude all you want, there are more auto manufacturers than Ford. Ford does not have a monopoly on the business, it has serious competition as evident from it's slip from the #2 automaker to the #4. The attitude they have toward taking care of customers with faulty products will put them down fast. Skipper

3rd Time since Thanksgiving it wouldn't start. What a hunk. Skipper

That is truly sad. Ford went how many years having a diesel light years ahead of Chevy? Chevy always had the poorest reputation in the diesel engine business until Ford came up with the 6.0 diesels. They should have took whatever they spent on R&D and Warranty claims on the 6.0 and gave it to the politicians so we could still get a 7.3 diesel. Skipper

Lets get something very straight here. 1. This truck was screwed up before I ever tried out the tuner. 2. It had been attempted to be fixed for over 12 months and numerous visits to the shop before this was ever tried. I was told by both the technician and Ford engineer that neither one of them knew what to do to solve the problems with my engine. The engineer suggested that a tuner might help. 3. One of the first things Ford did to this truck when they recalled it was reduce the power by recalibrating the computer. When they got done with it, the truck I paid for and the one I had were 2 complete different things. 4. The problems with this truck were not created by the tuner nor were they solved and I removed it after a short testing period when I realized it didn't solve the problem. 5. Now 2 and a half year from the initial problem and the original problems are still there and have yet to be solved. 6. Knowing that Ford has issued several dozen updated recalibrations for the 6.0's computers it is evident to about anyone that Ford itself really has no idea how to program the beast they built. The software issued by Ford is about as dependable as Microsoft Windows and has been updated about as much as Microsoft has updated it's operating system. 7. There is no headgasket damage or leaking headgaskets or any similar problem on my truck that would be indicative of using a programmer to run it beyond it's limits. The problems have been in the EGR system and turbo system since day one of problems and nothing so far has fixed it. You are barking up the wrong tree blaming me for this mess. I'm just someone who got stuck with a bad apple and is evidently going to have to live with it. Ford could have fixed this mess 2 years ago, but would not, and they still refuse. I hardly see how someone could be blamed for attempting to fix their problem when they have given ample opportunity to Ford to fix it then are told that Ford's best don't know how to fix it. What else could be expected? Skipper

He told me to try it in August, I didn't order it until sometime later, October I believe. When it first came in, the unit itself wasn't the correct one and I had to send it back to the company for a replacement. The 04 F250's came with 2 different versions of the 6.0 liter. Mine's an early 04 with an 03 engine in it. The unit was programmed for the actual 04 engine and not the 03. It wouldn't upload to mine and they had to change it to an 03 version. I've slept since then, but I believe it was sometime in November before I actually started to try it out. One of the things my truck has a history of doing is it's program getting messed up over time. Over the year prior to that each time I took it in (approximately monthly) they reprogrammed it and it would run good for a week maybe two, then it would start falling off in performance. You would loose both power and fuel milage. With a fresh flash (factory flash) on it, it would climb the hill I spoke of in 3rd gear like it should. Over a few weeks you'd notice it lugging more and more, until you were down shifting. Within a month it would near about stall on the same hill. I've had to stop and put it in granny low. I tested the thing for 2 tanks of fuel on each setting so that I could get a good fuel milage average and make note of these intermitent complete losses of power. I stopped using it when I determined that 1. I still had the same power loss problems and 2. My fuel milage didn't change. That said, I do keep the latest Ford flash stored in it and have restored that flash several times when the computer looses it's program and like I mentioned before, I can read the trouble codes with it. I don't hot rod this thing, and I'm not out to see if it'll out run a Mustang from red light to redlight. However, being able to pull out onto a 4 lane highway and not get ran over is another thing all together. Understand, This problem has been going on for two and a half years without resolution. Anyone that's worked on a mechanical problem for that length of time is going to try something that isn't necessarily in the book to see if it works once all the things in the book have been tried and not found to work. Skipper

The problems with this engine began in August of 2004. In August of 2005 a Ford field engineer suggested a programmer might help with the problems they had yet to solve after working on it for a year. I tried it, it didn't work, and took it back off. The problem was there before and is still there, nothing changed other than I spent $800 on a suggestion of someone who should have known better to find out that like most things advertised as solutions, the benefit isn't there. The only benefit I have out of that gadget is I can read the codes with it, write them down and give them to the tech when I get around to getting to the shop which they know about, and since they don't have a recorder to send out with me, it's handy to have the code it throws when it's having problems that occur randomly. Skip