akirby
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Posts posted by akirby
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2 hours ago, 02MustangGT said:
Thanks for proving my point and agreeing with the comments from Said Deep. Multiple factors are contributing to lower sales and CAFE is not the primary factor.
Nowhere did I say it was the primary factor, just that Ford isn’t upset with lower sales as long as profit margins stay high. Meaning they won’t drop prices or spend a lot of extra money just to increase sales. It’s a combination of pricing, supply constraints and a shrinking market. -
1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:
These are super appealing to younger car enthusiasts like me. But again, coming back to compromise, it feels like all of these super affordable sports coupes on the market have major compromises. In the case of this, and the Miata, they're super small, they go too far there. The gr86 also has quite a few significant reliability issues, so that's kinda a turn off.
I just feel like an EV coupe that is in between the gr86 and s650 in terms of size, and that's actually super reliable and economical to run long term because EVs just don't break that much relative to ICE, well that's a more compelling package imo.
But that’s just it - you either have 2 seaters with 4 cylinder engines or 4 seaters with v8 capability. Engine not an issue for an EV but I think something in between would compromise interior room. -
2 hours ago, ice-capades said:
Move Mustang to Chicago? A disaster waiting to happen with CAP's history!
I know I know but it makes the most sense from a platform sharing perspective. Or maybe they should remodel and move Explorer and Aviator to Flat Rock and close Chicago. (Sorry Decker). -
1 hour ago, Sherminator98 said:
Right but what is being talked the old continental is more or less the same exact thing, which makes me wonder how viable it would be. It was a full sized product like the new Taurus is in the Middle East but I think something smaller like the Lincoln Z would work better at its size and price point
Oh I agree the midsized would be first choice. I was just saying IF they did a larger sedan it would need to be RWD - C2 won’t work. -
1 hour ago, Sherminator98 said:
Your not wrong there, that is why I expect the Mustang, once it moves to a new EV platform to move to a different plant.
I still think they could move it to Chicago if they really wanted to. Especially at lower volumes. -
1 hour ago, 02MustangGT said:
Sell more F150’s? Oh wait…your POV regarding CAFE rules being a major factor in lack of Mustang sales defies logic. I suppose when the new administration relaxes CAFE requirements, we should expect a notable increase in Mustang sales?
Morgan20 spelled out mustang’s CAFE issue with facts fairly well and he worked for Ford. Did you even read it? Selling more F150s is irrelevant.It’s not that they don’t want to sell any Mustangs. But raising prices and pushing more high end models like dark horse raises profit and limits CAFE non compliance at the same time, If they added more low end sales through price reductions or made cheaper base models then any added profit could be offset or surpassed by CAFE fines. That’s why Ford is favoring larger vehicles because they get lower CAFE targets.
No exec is ever going to say we’re limiting sales due to CAFE. That would be stupid. They do it by raising prices If Mustang wasn’t an Icon it would have been killed already.
My old company did this with services they didn’t want to sell but weren’t allowed to discontinue. Make it less desirable and make as much profit on whatever was left.
Auto mfrs do all sorts of contortions and gyrations for CAFE. I remember in late 1999 they deleted the rear headrests on the Lincoln LS v8 sport models because the weight savings dropped them into a different CAFE category.
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36 minutes ago, Sherminator98 said:
We more or less already had that and it was built at Flat Rock too.
Except it was cd4 with ecoboost V6s. -
3 hours ago, Rick73 said:
In that case better find a way around CAFE limitations so selling higher volume makes sense.
So what’s your solution if it’s that simple? -
3 hours ago, 02MustangGT said:
It’s not due to CAFE either according to Said Deep (it’s due to supply constraints if you recall). Folks can speculate all they want, but Ford would gladly sell every Mustang (Mach-E included) they can build. There are many factors for the decline in sales for an “all new model”.
Morgan20 showed the calculations that prove every Mustang is CAFE negative meaning it has to be offset by other vehicles. Ford would never admit that publicly. Publicly they said they thought sales and pricing were in a sweet spot. Read between the lines.-
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1 hour ago, 02MustangGT said:
I didn’t mention “drop in sales from 2015 through 2022” in my comment. I couldn’t care less if the drop in sales is due to the market, pricing or whatever. One would think that an “all new” redesigned Mustang would result in increased sales over the outgoing model. It didn’t. That tells me that the mild styling changes did not result in renewed interest (even with the primary competition exiting the market).
Styling changes wouldn’t make much difference. And they already have the best powertrains so nothing to change there that would help. It is what it is until Ford drops pricing. But as was stated previously by morgan20 - they probably don’t want more sales due to CAFE.-
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Just now, 02MustangGT said:
Perhaps the minor exterior changes were not enough to move the needle for those in the market. I, for one, would like to see a proper full redesign at some point…but I do understand the budget will not allow for that due to the current volume/market.
Look at the sales chart above and explain the drop in sales from 2015 through 2022. It certainly wasn’t styling changes. -
2 minutes ago, Havelock said:
Yes. Sales were down in 2024 even though the Camaro and Challenger stopped production in 2023. Looks are an issue. It looks like they raised the hood and erased all of the fine details along the sides from the s550 so it looks like a cheap knock off...hence the Camaro comparisons.
You do understand there are lots of other factors?s550 debuted in 2015. What caused the drop I. Sales every year from 2015 through 2022? In comparison the drop in 2024 was negligible.
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3 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:
The way I see it, the s650 is just a more striking, exotic looking, and muscular s550. Really one of the only parts of the s650 that could have been better executed was the rear diffuser, it could have been integrated a bit sleeker. But I find it highly likely that Ford will tweak that with the refresh. The lower bumper cutout on the GTD looks better, I can see them applying that to the rest of the lineup. Tweak the rear bumper, and maybe the rear decklid/taillights, and it'll look better than a s550 from every angle.
Obviously some will have a preference for one or the other. I just don’t see anything in the s650 that would cause a drop off in sales.-
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So you think someone who loves the s550 looks at the s650 and says ugh I don’t like the styling I won’t buy one? Really? Other than the headlights the differences are minor to most buyers. I’m sure there are some enthusiasts who obsess over the tiniest details but that’s not most buyers.
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It was a clusterfuck from the beginning. You know the engineers tried to talk him out of it unless they were as delusional as Musk was. Just another DeLorean.
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2 hours ago, rmc523 said:
I guess they could go back to 2 sedan offerings. Zephyr and "Continental"
Large sedans are even worse than midsizers and they would have to stretch the current C2 in both directions. They also killed the transverse V6s and a 2.3L hybrid is probably not enough power for the top of the line Continental. RWD can use the Braptor 3.0 or the Coyote v8. -
22 hours ago, morgan20 said:
I like those ideas too. But aren't Ford and GM both known for not invented here syndrome?
“Not Invented Here Syndrome” (NIH Syndrome) is a term used in business and technology fields to describe a persistent organizational culture that rejects new ideas or innovations from external sources, preferring to develop everything in-house. This attitude typically stems from a belief that their own team’s capabilities, knowledge, and work are superior to others. This syndrome creates a barrier to implementing and adopting outside technologies or solutions, often leading to inefficiency and a lack of adaptation to new, potentially advantageous techniques or systems
Did t stop them from jointly designing multiple transmissions with them.-
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1 hour ago, ESP08 said:
The S650 is so good looking it lost 10,000 sales on a refresh year. The car simply isn't appealing to the majority out on the road, you have a minority opinion
The styling changes are subtle and most buyers wouldn’t care. Price and a general decline in that market (and the fact it’s middle of winter) are much more likely root causes. -
13 minutes ago, rmc523 said:
I think the Zephyr would be a fine offering as-is.
I'm just saying if there is also already work being done on a model that needs a platform mate to help with amortization and can be an offering that "looks better" both visually and brand prestige wise, I'd advocate going that route vs. a FWD sedan. And offer the RWD model in a hybrid.
In that case I would make the RWD a separate high end model. Like Lexus did with ES and GS.Because FWD hybrids are cheaper and get better mpg which is what most buyers care about. Ford’s RWD hybrid setup is ingenious from a manufacturing standpoint but isn’t the most efficient.
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9 hours ago, Biker16 said:
I don't know; building a low-volume product like the mustang in an underutilized factory is a recipe for failure, no matter how amortized the product is.
Not failure, just less profit. But I bet the higher priced GTs and Dark horse plus the older platform allow Mustang to break even at least.
Flat Rock is a real head scratcher. I think they want to close it but they won’t kill Mustang. They should have spent the money to refurbish it so they can build taller vehicles. Having another U.S. c2 factory would be a good thing right now.
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13 hours ago, morgan20 said:
Yea, but it's Toyota. Like akirby mentioned, Toyota relies on Subaru and BMW do the heavy lifting for GR86 and GR Supra. I doubt that other automakers are going to do that for their iconic products.
Also, Toyota simply operates differently. When I worked for Ford, I received external training in quality management (which Ford paid for). One my classes used the book The Toyota Way, which highlighted these four areas that served as the foundation for Toyota's business:
- long-term philosophy,
- the right process will produce the right results,
- add value to the organization by developing your people, and
- continuously solving root problems drives organizational learning
Of course, Toyota ain't perfect. But they adhere to these principles better than others
Those are great principles for any business. Unfortunately they are in opposition to short term profits and stock prices.-
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Sometimes these things are driven by supply - if supply is limited they restrict it to higher trims. In addition to cost.
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14 minutes ago, morgan20 said:
Yea, Americans don't care for an anonymous, boring unibody Lincoln sedan like the Chinese Z/Zephyr
I think it looks great. Not really any different than Nautilus. It won’t be a huge money maker but dealers could use another product in between Corsair and Nautilus and Flat rock needs more production.-
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33 minutes ago, rmc523 said:
If there is a 4-door Mustang coming, I'd rather Lincoln have a version of that than Zephyr for more prestige to it.
Luxury buyers prefer hybrids over high performance and RWD. At least for Lincoln buyers.
The Ford Mustang Mach-E Handily Outsold The Gas Mustang In 2024
in Ford Motor Company Discussion Forum
Posted · Edited by akirby
Just admit you don’t understand how CAFE works and let’s move on.