Bob Rosadini
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Posts posted by Bob Rosadini
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56 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:
It wouldn’t surprise me to find out whoever runs UAW social media is deleting negative commentsYah think?????? take it to the bank!
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54 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:
I believe Fain knew some of the demands were unattainable and part of the strategy. They didn’t get 46 percent 4 day work week or legacy pensions for all. I believe it was all part of the strategy. He will no doubt will be pounding his chest. I supposed the UAW pushed as far as they could.
For sure..std procedure you always have proposals that are throw aways in the negotiating process. I think Fain had some that were just plain unrealistic-raw meat he was throwing out . These unattainable proposals just fuel the fire with the dummies in the bargaining unit that just make it tougher to get a majority vote from the membership.
IMO, responsible union leadership doesn't let unrealistic proposals or "demands" get on the table.
A guy like Fain will in the long run prove detrimental to the fate of a lot of junior members.
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IMO, best settlement is one in which neither side wins. That indicates compromise was made by both.
Unfortunately Fain will be pounding his chest like he really delivered on all of his unrealistic proposals.
No mention will be made of lost real wages and stress he created for a lot of households.
Hopefully Bill Ford will continue taking the high ground and do his best to keep Ford an American institution-something that is not in Fain's long term playbook I fear.
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15 minutes ago, paintguy said:
Bill Ford always seemed the voice of reason when I worked for Ford. Not that he was always right, but he always seemed to care. Unfortunately on his watch the news hasn't always been good. Before Ford, I worked in chemical industry for companies with far less cordial relationships with unions. And when layoffs came, severance, or possibilities of a transfer were far less. Even when others suspended pensions for salary workers, Ford continues to accrue benefits for those hired with those rules and expectation.
As for Mr. Fain, big talk for a union which has not had a single success in organizing the transplant car companies, and most notably Tesla. Tesla is particularly troubling for the UAW as Fremont operated as a GM plant and NUMMI plant with UAW representation. With all the history of a long time union plant, UAW has been unable to gain traction. With this prolonged strike, more ammunition for companies resisting unionization. Mr. Fain seems on a mission to combat increases in CEO pay. Well, it is unreasonable, but automakers are in line with pay of similar sized American companies. This is analogous to the NFL pay where quarterback salaries have skyrocketed. Running Backs, formerly another valued position has not had the same increase as the game changed, reducing their value.
Finally, Mr. Fain also seems to be waging a war on capitalism. Now where else but the capitalist West do folks drive around in $50K vehicles that they own?
He is. Again,not sure on name but he hired some guy on his staff who is an absolute socialist. Shows you where Fain's head is......actually bad statement, can't be in two places at once?
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Hmn..I heard a newscast this AM that said Fain on Friday said there would be no more expansion of striking facilities or words to that affect. Guess the boys at the Ram plant made a move on their own...can't be a case of Fain being misquoted?
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25 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said:
FoMoCo is just one of UAW's three major employers and hundreds of smaller employers.
Bill Ford may think his paternalism will play well with UAW members, but many know the history of Ford's abusive paternalism before World War II and union recognition, delivered by spying "social workers" and company thugs. The visual of Ford's goons attacking peaceful workers at the Ford Hunger March and Battle of the Overpass is forever seared in their multi generational memories and no Ford is ever going to ever earn their trust, and especially not Bill Ford's latest version of his great grandpa's paternalism.
Give me a break! The Battle of the Bridge?? How many years ago? Was Bill Ford even on this earth then?
Oh you forgot about the "five dollar day"..Why don't you talk about the recent UAW leaders who are in the "can"..and if not in jail they paid how much in fines?
And as to your comment that many know the history of Ford's "abusive paternalism" probably a greater percentage think Walter Reuther was a tackle for the Lions.
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7 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:
First, a lockout will backfire because besides increased unemployment insurance rates, though expired the contract is still in force including guarantees of wages if a plant closes, especially if the layoffs are due to a lockout which is a mass discharge without cause.
Second, where are all these scabs going to come from? Reality is that the plants would sit empty and eating capital for months because new workers simply aren't available.
Finally, one can easily see the framework of a settlement, but some leaders on both sides enjoy listening to their own orations too much to put it down on paper and hopefully approved- It looks like UAW and the automakers will settle for 30% raise and eliminating tiers so that is pretty much settled. Union representation at future plants is largely in the hands of the yet to be hired workers, the most the companies can guarantee is union recognition by a simple majority of workers signing membership cards without an election. That leaves the issue of defined benefit pensions to be settled, and given that few companies can saddle their balance sheets with such an obligation, a solution will probably require setting up an independent company to handle pensions and absorb the liability or transferring the responsibility to the federal government, where it ends up if pensions become insolvent anyways.
Very good-you have made the case that they have a good deal....defined benefit pensions??? That ship sailed a long time ago.
Only thing in the way now is Fain's arrogance.
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18 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:
UAWs lawyers would love a lockout, would put Ford on the hook for millions in pay. As for hiring scabs, noticed the help wanted signs everywhere?
How would a lock out put Ford on the hook for millions in pay.? Does put a huge hurt on Fain's strike fund though.
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re Bill Ford's speech I appreciate the fact in this world of giant corporate entities, Ford remains a true family business. Many will say that is BS, but I spent 44 years in the same industry...half of that time with an international giant, and the rest with a very large family owned entity. I always said, the difference?..in the former you had to worry about being stabbed in the back by a corporate ladder climber...working for the latter?..you had to be worried about being punched in the mouth by an owner.
Bill Ford didn't punch anyone in the mouth, but his speech brought it down to a very personal level. He has stockholders now to answer to- unlike Hank the Deuce when he took over in 1947, but I believe he has the interest of his employees in mind when he talks about what is at stake....it is more than just the stockholders.
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10 hours ago, rperez817 said:
So much for union solidarity. ?
No, I would say it is a case of taking a pass on the Kool-Aid, or just using your head.
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34 minutes ago, jpd80 said:
The devil is in the detail, while the Lincoln version gets different skin panels and interior,
the frames of the top hat is shared with the Ford progenitor to keep costs under control.
In this situation, I think the Lincoln is a good fit with aesthetics and customer expectation,
the issue is that Ford buyers prefer the boxy or chunky 3- row utilities that Ford has been
pushing for the last five years or so……maybe they should be listening to customer feedback?
saw an ad today for a new Lexus...highlighting 3 row seating. Look very Ford like to me!
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51 minutes ago, ice-capades said:
The introduction of the "Jellybean" 1986 Taurus was an interesting time to be in the business with its at the time radical design. It was an instant success with demand outstripping supply for quite some time while the competition raced to design and introduce their own versions that could be considered suitable competition. Ford pushed further with updates and then totally alienated the market with the "Oval" extensive design introduced years later and sales were impacted tremendously.
Volume was the name of the game then and Ford had two plants dedicated to production, later supported by volume fleet sales to offset the retail sales decline as evidenced by the sales decline after the extreme "Oval" design generation. The follow-up generation was much more conservative but by then the damage had been done to retail sales volume and fleet sales were utilized to support production at two plants dedicated to the Ford Taurus and Mercury Sable models.
There's nothing wrong with considering designs considered radical at the time but they must be visually attractive. You never get a second chance to make a first impression!
I read that Trotman was the guilty party that ruined the Taurus. He was shown original designs and rejected them with instructions to make them ..."more Ovoid" or words to that effect. Anyone confirm that?
Only Ford that I would ever asmit in spite of my prejudice...."just plain ugly"!
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6 hours ago, rperez817 said:
No and no. Labor relations for a corporation with employees represented by collective bargaining is entirely different from a general partnership with no employees using independent contractors.
And if one of these independent contractors wants a bigger piece of the pie do you give it to him? No -you tell him to take a hike and get another guy who is fed up with working for a "company" and can be his own boss working for you.
You thrive on someone who dreams of having something of his own..for a while anyway.
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28 minutes ago, T-dubz said:
As prices go up, “Buy American” goes out the window, and the younger generations probably don’t care about buying American anyways. I myself have no problem buying an imported vehicle if the quality is there and the price is right.
How true that is. Plus how many of the younger generation grew up in a household that was a "Ford, GM or Mopar" household??? My bet is most of them under 30 did not. The brand loyalty factor that I grew up with doesn't exist. It exists with my sons..and daughter in laws in particular- as it is a matter of staying in the will?
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12 hours ago, Andrew L said:
I went out for drinks with my neighbors. Me and one of them are big car guys and we started talking about the UAW and what they are demanding and the strikes. One of the neighbors (who is not a car guy really unless it's a Prius) piped up and said it's really simple to fix this by cutting the CEOs pay and using that money to cover the costs that they need to give all the workers their demands. I had to break down to him how that wouldn't work but he refused to listen to me and kept saying the CEO needs to lose their salary to fix this.
You did infer he drives a Prius right? Case closed..while not all "Prius Owners" think alike, a good clue as to how many of them think?
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On 10/10/2023 at 12:06 PM, GearheadGrrrl said:
Lockout, fire and replace the strikers, etc. are tactics from an era of labor surpluses that won't work now. Volvo truck's other plant in Virginia voted down the contract a couple of times, workers are tired of Volvo treating them like second class autoworkers and Volvo's attempts to outsource chassis trimming and move medium duty assembly to a new non union plant have just made them madder.
Uh..I think that is the point. they are not "autoworkers" . The competition in heavy trucks is a bit different than the "car" business. I think every other class 8 builder has a Mexican facility. When Ford sold the class 8 business to Daimler they kept class 6 and 7 and were building them in Ford's Cautilan (sp?) Mexico plant. Then in 04 the Bluediamond JV was formed with Navistar and production shifted to Navistar's Mexican plant. Not sure what year, but in one of the prior negotiations..8 yrs ago?...Ford agreed to bring class 6 and 7 production back to the US..OAP. Clearly that was a "bone" thrown to UAW.
But I think I Fain is ignoring, that Mack is completely at risk as a stand alone entity. If ever a case where the term "synergy" applies, it is when you look at the Volvo -Mack relationship.. Again, you can bet their is a faction in the HQ in Sweden that says.."maybe now it is time to grab the savings that a consolidation of the two brands makes sense. It has happened too many times in the heavy truck industry. Sterling-the original Sterling not the rebadged Fords of late, Reo, Diamond T, Diamond Reo, WhiteGMC...all these managements had read the same book.
And TT, to pull a quote from you on Saturday....".once a contract offer is presented, as a member of said negotiations committee, I am duty bound to present the offer in a positive manner (some would say "selling it") and if I did not and instead told my members that it sucked, I would be charged with bargaining in bad faith. " you are 100% correct as I pointed out relative to Fain's comments when the Mack membership vetoed it big time. The UAW reached an agreement. You can bet your ass that settlement was run by Fain and he concurred.
Then when the members turn it down, he is giving them high fives! Absolute bullshit.
The guy is a showboat . When it comes to the battery plants, think of it. Ford is building these expensive plants here and for years, will probably still be dependent of China for much of the raw materials...and if not China, some other third world country. And Fain can't or won't recognize that perhaps, at this time he probably should be thinking about doing everything he can to get this buisness going here. In the long term he will have plenty of time them to sell his union to the workers. But he can't see that..and of course Mary Barra hasn't helped the situation either.
Oh and Gearhead, don't forget there is much that still can be automated...when the labor economics make more automation cost effective.
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50 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:
Im honestly surprised none of the 3 companies has gone to the NLRB over some of the rhetoricI don't think the NLRB has much objectivity these days if everything I have read is correct.
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10 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:
Well the Mack UAW contract talks were going well and a tentative agreement was reached subject to ratification..
Today was announced the rank and file turned it down by a big margin. I guess the wild numbers on the table for the big three clouded the Mack workers vision....Not exactly an apples to apples industry..and a lot of Mack's competitors have plants south of the border.
Anyway this was Fain's reaction............
"I'm inspired to see UAW members at Mack holding out for a better deal, and ready to stand up and walk off the job to win it," Fain said via statement.
Keep in mind the deal was endorsed by the UAW International and the UAW Mack Truck Council...not sure what the "Truck Council" is.
My guess the group that handles the rest of the class 7-8 builders-who are familiar with south of the border plants.
Now usually it seems to me whenever a deal was taken back to the membership, and the members rejected it, most union responses would be words to the effect..."We regret that the membership rejected what your bargaining team considered to be a fair offer, however we will return to the table to pursue a better offer.
Not Fain though
Bit of history-when Mack owned Brockway, after a few years, Brockway was using Mack cabs..long story short, Brockway's sole plant in Cortland NY, in contract negotiations rejects company offer. Mack says .."no problem" And shuts the operation down. And Brockway was always a tough regional cpmpetitor to Mack. End of that problem. Not suggesting conditions are the same today..But Mack is owned by Volvo. Volvo has a huge plant in VA. Mack/Volvo powertrains are basically the same . Many say Mack's days are number....one day some guy in Sweden says..."why do we have these duplicated staffs etc etc.? History of the trucking industry is filled with similar stories.
Make that.."days are numbered"
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Well the Mack UAW contract talks were going well and a tentative agreement was reached subject to ratification..
Today was announced the rank and file turned it down by a big margin. I guess the wild numbers on the table for the big three clouded the Mack workers vision....Not exactly an apples to apples industry..and a lot of Mack's competitors have plants south of the border.
Anyway this was Fain's reaction............
"I'm inspired to see UAW members at Mack holding out for a better deal, and ready to stand up and walk off the job to win it," Fain said via statement.
Keep in mind the deal was endorsed by the UAW International and the UAW Mack Truck Council...not sure what the "Truck Council" is.
My guess the group that handles the rest of the class 7-8 builders-who are familiar with south of the border plants.
Now usually it seems to me whenever a deal was taken back to the membership, and the members rejected it, most union responses would be words to the effect..."We regret that the membership rejected what your bargaining team considered to be a fair offer, however we will return to the table to pursue a better offer.
Not Fain though
Bit of history-when Mack owned Brockway, after a few years, Brockway was using Mack cabs..long story short, Brockway's sole plant in Cortland NY, in contract negotiations rejects company offer. Mack says .."no problem" And shuts the operation down. And Brockway was always a tough regional cpmpetitor to Mack. End of that problem. Not suggesting conditions are the same today..But Mack is owned by Volvo. Volvo has a huge plant in VA. Mack/Volvo powertrains are basically the same . Many say Mack's days are number....one day some guy in Sweden says..."why do we have these duplicated staffs etc etc.? History of the trucking industry is filled with similar stories.
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Well to close out this thread, I bit the bullet and traded the 22 on a new 23...same truck except 3.73's and E Lock. Oh and a 36 gal tank and "Avalanche" or gray as Mass MV calls it or "dirty snow" as I call it because it does not show dirt. And while hiway mpg might be a tad lower, the around town is no different as I drive with a light foot and it upshifts a bit quicker than the 3.31's did. At least that is my perception.
Thanks everyone for your comments.
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On 10/5/2023 at 8:15 PM, fuzzymoomoo said:
Yep. The dog and pony show continues. Freaking enough already. Give us something to vote on FFS.
It’s incredibly stupid I can only say this here where I have anonymity or to my closest friends.
That is a sad statement. Unfortunately I think you have to do all you can to educate what I can only describe as those who fail to realize that their employer is in business to make a profit and stay competitive-not to provide jobs. And as I previously pointed out, I initiated and "sold" a two tier contract by pushing the point that we would have no trouble getting applicants when we needed drivers. "As long as there are faces pressed against the door looking in, two tiers would work". ( It's the economy stupid") And by the way, the two tier employees would ultimately reach parity with the existing employees. There was always light at the end of the tunnel..it was just a bit dimmer.
I think Ford's big mistake was running the program with unrealistic progression scales. Its one thing when a person thinks of the senior guy whose locker is next to his, is at top pay and he has to wait 48 mos to get there. His memory still remembers where he came from. But if he is waiting 72 mos...at some point he DOESN'T remember where he came from.
Hang in there Fuzzy.
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14 hours ago, twintornados said:
Amazing that this thread is still going strong over 10 years on!! Thank you @Joe771476 for starting one of the most compelling threads on BON
TT..for sure..and Joe can never be accused of drinking the corporate Kool-Aid?
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Back to the impact of a very high cost settlement that leaves the "big three" at a very big disadvantage to the non union producers.
I wonder if the big three are already working on just how they can reduce manpower. Watching You Tube videos I'm amazed at what I see in terms of automation. I've only been through 3 assembly plants in my life...KTP when they were cranking out class 7,8's saw very little "automation" certainly not to degree that exists today. Dearborn after the rebuild and I'm sure there is a lot more now. Mack Macungie...several times..truly an "assembly Plant"-and the last time about 3 or 4 years ago-I'm sure they have made improvements since then.
But what may have been cost prohibitive before when it comes to automation, all of a sudden may now be cost effective. Also is it possible to expand outsourcing to produce more sub assemblies? While Ford refuses to add Cummins engines and Allison transmissions to medium duties as that would have a negative impact on Power Stroke-Torque Shift economics, perhaps the new cost structure will force more outsourcing.
From a quality perspective I think that would be counter to efforts to reduce warranty costs but out of control labor costs may dictate a fresh approach to a lot of things.
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On 9/29/2023 at 5:09 PM, jpd80 said:
I get the feeling that Ford will be first with a deal and that GM and Stellantis are still miles off.
So do we think that the eventual Ford contract will be the template that the others use?
Agree..as I said a few days ago..Fain thought he was holding a lot of cards by striking all three instead of a target to set the contract as in the past. So he thought he would not have a pattern settlement and guess what...I think it will be as close to a pattern as you can get.
UAW Demands 46% Pay Hike
in Ford Motor Company Discussion Forum
Posted
Detrimental in the sense with such high labor costs vs the Toyotas, Hondas, Kias etc how can you minimize that disadvantage?
-Invest in more automation
-increase preassembled components.
- make design changes to simplify assembly process
-eliminate marginal products
-develop JVs such as Bluediamond
etc
Bottom line with no cost spread or minimal between senior guys at top rate and junior guys that much closer to the top vs old extended progression rates incentive to cut manpower is there..seniority list is a bitch!