Stray Kat Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 OK, OK let's admit the sbc was the most common "cheap" engine used by hot rodders since it's inception in the mid `50's. The Ford Flathead held that postion before then. I say Ford has a chance to make some real "hay" in the performance arena again. Everything I read says that diesels are going to be very prominent in passenger cars as well as trucks in the U.S. in the very near future. I'm excited that Ford has an excellent compact V6 and V8 diesel engine series of their own design at the ready. Diesel engines at their current technology levels are AMAZING! It would be a shame to let this opportunity get by. Ford please, please consider promoting this new diesel as a stand alone product like DCX does with the hemi. Get that thing in the hands of tuners and builders BEFORE it's introduction into mainstream Ford products. Make a foray into an old Bonneville Ford coupe and power it with a 4.4 then race it. Build a couple show cars and trucks to showcase it. Stick one in a Nascar Ford Fusion and do some public displays promoting the speed and endurance available with this engine. Get back in the marine engine business and use the 4.4 as your "keystone" product. Probably most importantly solicit independant people that may be interested in going in the diesel direction to get involved on the ground floor of development. Make it easy to swap into any chassis with stand alone electronics. Be resonable with price, utilize this engine as a promotional tool. Chevrolet's reputation for performance is a direct result of the success of the sbc. Do the same here. Take back the future performance crown. Put Ford back in it's place of leadership. The positives of providing high performance with better fuel efficiency and cleaner emissions than the competition can offer would be priceless. On December 16 1953 Zora Arkus Duntov wrote a letter to Chevrolet management imploring them to explore what it would take to overtake Ford in the youth and performance arena. The results of those considerations are legendary we all must admit. I'm sure we are at another major crossroad here and now. The shift to small diesel power is underway. Performance is being redefined. Ford should make a "Bold Move" and take this challenge to heart. RECAPTURE THE YOUTH MARKET AND MAKE THEM FORD FANS! Now I'm no Duntov, just a good ole Ford enthusiast. I want to see Ford succeed and grow. This is a great opportunity for leadership. http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=23065 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 This will certainly take some serious PR as the general perception of diesel motors in this country is that of a big noisy pickup truck with a motor that sounds like 200 cards are hitting the bicycle spokes all at once. I know that's not the case but that's just because I know that. The youth of this country are not as worldy and experienced as you or I for the most part and therefore are less likely to regard diesel as a viable performance option. So you'll have to figure out how to sell it to them. On the other hand I could easily see Ford billing it as a good reliable motor in an upcoming Ranger or as a fuel saving and reliable engine in a Fusion or Taurus where customers are less interesed in performance and more interested in reliability and mpg. I know that diesel has great performance potential, as I've seen what can be done just by chipping them. I'm just saying it won't be an easy sell to the youth because of perception issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted June 10, 2007 Author Share Posted June 10, 2007 The simple truth is it must be cost effective and fast. It must be available in decent numbers and in at least one platform that is within the reach of a first time buyer, such as a Ranger varient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g48150 Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 (edited) Diesel is going to be too expensive to develop a reasonable business case through 2013 when the EPA has "run out of ideas" as how to make the engine more "clean". Not to say that they can't dream up new ways to waste money, but what the hell, this current crop of politicians doesn't have a problem with inconvenient "truths" as it is. It is WAY more cost effective to buy an engine from someone who has already figured out things like development and supply chain of Diesel Particulate Filters and Selective Catalytic Reducers (like Bluetech, where I still can't seem to find a place to fill my piss tank...) The Diesel fanboys around here really need to wake up to reality that it won't be a viable technology (for on-road passenger cars) until 2013 at the EARLIEST!!! Want a diesel, get a Freightliner... Edited June 10, 2007 by g48150 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted June 10, 2007 Author Share Posted June 10, 2007 Diesel is going to be too expensive to develop a reasonable business case through 2013 when the EPA has "run out of ideas" as how to make the engine more "clean". Not to say that they can't dream up new ways to waste money, but what the hell, this current crop of politicians doesn't have a problem with inconvenient "truths" as it is. It is WAY more cost effective to buy an engine from someone who has already figured out things like development and supply chain of Diesel Particulate Filters and Selective Catalytic Reducers (like Bluetech, where I still can't seem to find a place to fill my piss tank...) The Diesel fanboys around here really need to wake up to reality that it won't be a viable technology (for on-road passenger cars) until 2013 at the EARLIEST!!! Want a diesel, get a Freightliner... Um, I think the point of this whole argument is that Ford is the someone else who could be the producer instead of the consumer of clean diesel tech. These engines exist NOW. If the bandaids you mention are necessary then I think it's no big leap since the engines are basically done. Are these particulate filters and such a big deal? If the government wants 40mpg+ cars would'nt it be wise to cooperate with the auto manufacturers. Maybe relax the standards till the tech catches up? I don't understand, give up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g48150 Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Um, I think the point of this whole argument is that Ford is the someone else who could be the producer instead of the consumer of clean diesel tech. These engines exist NOW. If the bandaids you mention are necessary then I think it's no big leap since the engines are basically done. Are these particulate filters and such a big deal? If the government wants 40mpg+ cars would'nt it be wise to cooperate with the auto manufacturers. Maybe relax the standards till the tech catches up? I don't understand, give up? Okay, taken ass a whole, you don't know what's going on with EMISSIONS not MPG. You need to understand supply chain before making wholesale statements about what people buy. Here's how misguided they were in 2003 Here's what's coming in 2010 A lot to learn have you, young fanboy... P.S. in 2010 when the rules come out, it will take 3 years MINIMUM to make it economically viable. This is law, not some misguided Presidential Candidate loser sulking over getting his ass handed to him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Okay, taken ass a whole, you don't know what's going on with EMISSIONS not MPG. You need to understand supply chain before making wholesale statements about what people buy. Here's how misguided they were in 2003 Here's what's coming in 2010 A lot to learn have you, young fanboy... P.S. in 2010 when the rules come out, it will take 3 years MINIMUM to make it economically viable. This is law, not some misguided Presidential Candidate loser sulking over getting his ass handed to him... Peugeot diesels all come in well below 2010 rules now, its new 308 come out next year, with a 70 MPG average. http://coolcars.blogsome.com/category/peugeot/ Audi have a new concept V12 SUV that will be a diesel rocket ship which is Euro 5 compliant http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/01/audi_introduces.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted June 10, 2007 Author Share Posted June 10, 2007 Okay, taken ass a whole, you don't know what's going on with EMISSIONS not MPG. You need to understand supply chain before making wholesale statements about what people buy. Here's how misguided they were in 2003 Here's what's coming in 2010 A lot to learn have you, young fanboy... P.S. in 2010 when the rules come out, it will take 3 years MINIMUM to make it economically viable. This is law, not some misguided Presidential Candidate loser sulking over getting his ass handed to him... Hey "G" I don't appreciate your tone. First of all I'm not young OK. Second of all your balls are bigger because you're sitting safely at home typing on your computer. I doubt you'd speak to me like this in person, fanboy. My post if I may say is inspired. It may not nail exactly what's possible tomorrow, but it's called doing leadership type things. Waiting for Mercedes to sell us "Bluetec" sounds lame. No I'm not a diesel/EPA reg expert. Did I make that claim? So what's the answer? Let other companies spearhead yet another technology? What's the hybrid perception "G"? Ford has them yes but the average person thinks Toyota and says Prius when you ask them. Do we give this away too? I don't get you. You think Ford should buy in, in 2013? I think you're just playing the "look how smart I am" card. Let me ask you since Ford is being headed up by former Boeing chief, Mullaly. Would you like to have been the one person responsible for the direction Boeing took compared to the one Airbus took? Oh I'm sure you can now say in hindsight that going with the fuel sipping 787 Dreamliner was an obvious decision. But really that was Boeing a company that really became wildly succesfull with the high passenger volume 747 Jumbo Jet. They made a tough decision to walk away from that concept to a completely different one. I'd say they did pretty right by it. You don't think Ford now headed by Mullaly does'nt stand to benefit from serious and strong decisions like the one given? You don't think that diesels are inevitably going to be in our near future one way or another? Who's got more to learn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 From http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_dis...m?release=25332 "Ford's Dagenham facility is on target for an annual output of 1,000,000 engines thanks to two production landmarks this year. The wind-powered Dagenham Diesel Centre (DDC) is celebrating the successful launch of a new line to produce low-carbon 1.4 and 1.6-litre Duratorq TDCi turbo diesel engines - the result of a £130 million investment programme. Production of the larger engine is now underway, with the 1.4-litre unit to be added in June. These high technology diesel engines power the most fuel efficient versions of the Ford Fiesta, the Ford Fusion, the Ford Focus and the Ford C-MAX. Within the wider Ford family, these engines are also used in Volvo and Mazda models. This additional production capacity at Dagenham is needed to satisfy rising demand for the high technology diesel engines that are part of the ongoing cooperative agreement between Ford Motor Company and PSA Peugeot Citroën. Around 250 extra assembly operators to date have been employed at the DDC in readiness for the start of production. Total engine production output on the Ford Dagenham estate will rise to 1,000,000 units a year by 2009 with the addition of these engines. By then 1.4 and 1.6-litre production capacity will be 575,000. The balance will be accounted for by the estate's existing 1.8, 2.0, 2.2 and 2.4-litre four-cylinder engine ranges, plus the 2.7-litre V6 diesel engine for Jaguar, Land Rover and PSA Peugeot Citroën and the 3.6-litre V8 diesel engine produced for Jaguar and Land Rover. " Ford knows diesels, so if emissions can be met, they'll probably be there with other manufacturers. Maybe young fanboy has a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g48150 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Peugeot diesels all come in well below 2010 rules now, its new 308 come out next year, with a 70 MPG average. http://coolcars.blogsome.com/category/peugeot/ Audi have a new concept V12 SUV that will be a diesel rocket ship which is Euro 5 compliant http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/01/audi_introduces.html Okay, one at a time, here, for this one, yeah, go ahead, make the extra charge to import these bad boys and see if anyone can afford it once its put inside a car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g48150 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 (edited) Hey "G" I don't appreciate your tone. First of all I'm not young OK. Second of all your balls are bigger because you're sitting safely at home typing on your computer. I doubt you'd speak to me like this in person, fanboy. My post if I may say is inspired. It may not nail exactly what's possible tomorrow, but it's called doing leadership type things. Waiting for Mercedes to sell us "Bluetec" sounds lame. No I'm not a diesel/EPA reg expert. Did I make that claim? So what's the answer? Let other companies spearhead yet another technology? What's the hybrid perception "G"? Ford has them yes but the average person thinks Toyota and says Prius when you ask them. Do we give this away too? I don't get you. You think Ford should buy in, in 2013? I think you're just playing the "look how smart I am" card. Let me ask you since Ford is being headed up by former Boeing chief, Mullaly. Would you like to have been the one person responsible for the direction Boeing took compared to the one Airbus took? Oh I'm sure you can now say in hindsight that going with the fuel sipping 787 Dreamliner was an obvious decision. But really that was Boeing a company that really became wildly succesfull with the high passenger volume 747 Jumbo Jet. They made a tough decision to walk away from that concept to a completely different one. I'd say they did pretty right by it. You don't think Ford now headed by Mullaly does'nt stand to benefit from serious and strong decisions like the one given? You don't think that diesels are inevitably going to be in our near future one way or another? Who's got more to learn? Mullaly's a smart guy, and it won't take him long to figure out how to play the EPA emissions game. There is one HUGE flaw in your logic young fanboy, you're expecting leadership when everyone is headed in different directions. The other flaw is that there is NO USA developed passenger car diesel that is existent TODAY that passes 2010 EPA legislation. If by some miracle of the Almighty that the Global Powertrain operations came to a singular decision on a diesel platform, it would take 3 years (36 months) of GPDS before we even saw it in a mass-produced vehicle. The shortest platform for ANY vehicle using GPDS is 36 months, trust me on this one, I took the ing training young fanboy. EPA legislation kicks in 2010. Even if Ford started tomorrow with a GLOBAL Diesel Powertrain (remember, no more regional engineering, we're a global company now...) and somehow had the design and supply chain up and ready by 2009 (which would basically require ANOTHER $20 Billion loan...) and launched EVERYTHING by 2010, I'd buy 1,000,000 shares of Ford stock by Friday. When reality sets in and even the bosses in Europe haven't even CONSIDERED shipping current platform diesels over here (for sane cost reasons) you see that it really is going to be sometime AFTER 2013 that Ford will have their Global Diesel Powertrain up and ready for mass consumption. In 6 years, we'll see if I'm right or not, but in 2009 the first $20 billion loan payment comes due, lets try and work on one problem at a time... Edited June 11, 2007 by g48150 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted June 11, 2007 Author Share Posted June 11, 2007 (edited) "There is one HUGE flaw in your logic young fanboy, you're expecting leadership when everyone is headed in different directions. The other flaw is that there is NO USA developed passenger car diesel that is existent TODAY that passes 2010 EPA legislation." I don't have time to deal with you properly since I'm headed out the door to work. For now I'll address this.....Your reading comprehension is lacking. I don't expect leadership in my original post I'm encouraging it. Second your careful inclusion of the USA developed diesel. I never said USA developed diesel, I said Ford developed. Ford is a globe wide company you know and the Dagenham diesels will meet the 2010 regs from what I hear. Hence it is you with the flawed statements youngster. Edited June 11, 2007 by Stray Kat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g48150 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 "There is one HUGE flaw in your logic young fanboy, you're expecting leadership when everyone is headed in different directions. The other flaw is that there is NO USA developed passenger car diesel that is existent TODAY that passes 2010 EPA legislation." I don't have time to deal with you properly since I'm headed out the door to work. For now I'll address this.....Your reading comprehension is lacking. I don't expect leadership in my original post I'm encouraging it. Second your careful inclusion of the USA developed diesel. I never said USA developed diesel, I said Ford developed. Ford is a globe wide company you know and the Dagenham diesels will meet the 2010 regs from what I hear. Hence it is you with the flawed statements youngster. I'll deal with you then, take this!!! Go ahead and ship these mother ers in by the SHIPLOADS! Then try and recoup THAT cost when you sell it... Go ahead, try! Your logic is flawed past the point of vehicle ownership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted June 11, 2007 Author Share Posted June 11, 2007 I'll deal with you then, take this!!! Go ahead and ship these mother ers in by the SHIPLOADS! Then try and recoup THAT cost when you sell it... Go ahead, try! Your logic is flawed past the point of vehicle ownership. "g" You know what your comments are just defeatist in nature. In fact the context of your comments took this thread into a dumb direction. Like the comment above. So simple it would seem in nature yet idiotic when the layers are peeled back. I think you're saying the boat ride accross the pond will be cost prohibitive when it comes time to ship these babies. So Ford should bypass the very efficient Dagenham plant that has been producing Ford diesels since the `60's and build a whole new facility where? That would be cost efficient? How about build the diesels there for now and phase in diesel capability around the world gradually? Your comments I must say "g" while they're your opinion are shallow and shortsighted. Further when you approach any subject like you're the wisecracking guru you lose credability. I don't think you can stop the fact that small diesels are coming to North America en masse. Whenever that happens I'm pulling for Ford to use the excellent products they ALREADY have to position themselves as a leader in this area. I don't think GM or Chrysler are as prepared for this as Ford is with their OWN stuff. Enough time spent on your negativism. Next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukoner Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 I'll deal with you then, take this!!! Go ahead and ship these mother ers in by the SHIPLOADS! Then try and recoup THAT cost when you sell it... Go ahead, try! Your logic is flawed past the point of vehicle ownership. g48150, there are always lots of reasons why things CAN'T be done, but I'm sure somebody at one of the manufacturers will figure a way to make it work. I hope Ford is that manufacturer. As far as what is economically viable, do you know what the exchange rate will be in 3 years? If gas/diesel is $5 a gallon is $3,000 premium a vehicle too much? How much will we lose if we don't do it? Nobody said it was going to be easy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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