What attributes do you think make a car a top seller?

[Ford Jellymoulds]

What attributes do you think make a car a top seller?

 

Peugeots 207 is the best selling car in Europe so far this year, the one thing that helps move this car is the environmentally resource saving near 70 MPG and incredible reliability & longevity of it’s bullet proof HDI engines.

 

In contrast one manufacturer has had to pull the plug on selling one of its models which you can no longer buy in the UK, as you just might have needed a loan from your bank manager to fill it up, with the cost of gasoline only going to sky rocket in the future, would it not wise of Ford to make sure its MPG is the best in its class every time it releases a new model in the US, if Ford ignores this it might just end up with a model that is a dead duck sale flop. It would only reward shield Ford every time the price does rise, not to mention cut the need to rely on Arab oil.

 

What attributes do you think made this car a complete sales flop, it never made it into the top 250 best selling cars in the UK or Europe?

 

http://www.motors.co.uk/review-Toyota-Camry-1236

 

Toyota stopped selling the Camry in Great Britain in 2002 because it was an unmitigated sales disaster.

Edited July 1, 2007 by Ford Jellymoulds

[2005Explorer]

In the US...thats easy...just slap a Toyota or Honda badge on it...no matter what it is it will be a best seller. It's so easy...it's so cheesy!

[Catalepsy]

To be a top seller: Marketing and press control.

 

Marketing will sell cars. Press control will limit any type of negative news from reaching the ignorant masses. Then you need a decent car that may or may not be the best, but it must be good enough.

 

Environmentalism is just a part of marketing.

 

 

 

What attributes do you think make a car a top seller?

 

Peugeots 207 is the best selling car in Europe so far this year, the one thing that helps move this car is the environmentally resource saving near 70 MPG and incredible reliability & longevity of it’s bullet proof HDI engines.

 

In contrast one manufacturer has had to pull the plug on selling one of its models which you can no longer buy in the UK, as you just might have needed a loan from your bank manager to fill it up, with the cost of gasoline only going to sky rocket in the future, would it not wise of Ford to make sure its MPG is the best in its class every time it releases a new model in the US, if Ford ignores this it might just end up with a model that is a dead duck sale flop. It would only reward shield Ford every time the price does rise, not to mention cut the need to rely on Arab oil.

 

What attributes do you think made this car a complete sales flop, it never made it into the top 250 best selling cars in the UK or Europe?

 

http://www.motors.co.uk/review-Toyota-Camry-1236

 

Toyota stopped selling the Camry in Great Britain in 2002 because it was an unmitigated sales disaster.

[aneekr]

Didn't quite work for the Accord Hybrid, Insight, Prelude, Echo, Celica, T100, or Supra, among others.

 

I think Catalepsy's answer sums it up perfectly.

 

In the US...thats easy...just slap a Toyota or Honda badge on it...no matter what it is it will be a best seller. It's so easy...it's so cheesy!

[namragus]

Related question...

 

Why is Honda able to squeeze out more fuel economy out of its I4s with no drop in HP?

[Ford Jellymoulds]

To be a top seller: Marketing and press control.

 

Marketing will sell cars. Press control will limit any type of negative news from reaching the ignorant masses. Then you need a decent car that may or may not be the best, but it must be good enough.

 

Environmentalism is just a part of marketing.

 

Thanks for your reply that would explain a lot. l find it very hard find any logic in car buying, even Japanese folk shun the Camry it's also one big unmittigated sales distaster in Japan as well as Europe, it's not because its a wee bit on the big size because the Japanese buy the Lexus and have not shunned that. Europe does not have a single Japanese car in its top ten best sellers. Fords appeal to buyers anywhere in the world except Japan & France.

[Admiral]

IMO, in the US, strong sales come from (at least the last few years):

 

1) Style - The vehicle must look good.

2) Quality - It can't fall apart.

3) Fit - The vehicle has to match consumers' needs and be comfortable.

4) Features - Cool stuff can't be ignored, lack thereof can't be excused.

5) Cachet - MB has terrible quality, yet they still sell.

[David Johnson]

Look at the top 10 selling vehicles in May. One was released this decade (Prius), one in the 90's (Altima) and the rest are nameplates over 20 years old.

 

One definite way to not achieve that status is by shuffling your nameplates every decade. Half of the Ford models from just 10 years ago are no longer on showroom floors.

[2005Explorer]

Look at the top 10 selling vehicles in May. One was released this decade (Prius), one in the 90's (Altima) and the rest are nameplates over 20 years old.

 

One definite way to not achieve that status is by shuffling your nameplates every decade. Half of the Ford models from just 10 years ago are no longer on showroom floors.

 

I agree with this and think the best decision that Ford made this year was to bring back the Taurus and Sable names. There is a lot in a name and not just with cars, but with about any consumer product.

 

Just about every person I have talked to about cars, even people who are not really into cars knows that there is a new Taurus that is coming out right now. I have also talked to non-car people that did not even realize there was a Ford Five-Hundred. Sounds crazy, but it is true. Even the media gives the new Taurus more attention just because of the name. If Ford had not renamed the cars the redesigned car would have not gained near the attention.

 

I know there were a few people that were against the renaming. Richard I agree with you on many things, but I feel your initial impression of the re-naming of these cars will prove to be wrong. I am not sure if you have finally warmed up to the idea, but I remember at the time you thought Ford had lost their mind. I think someday we might look back and see that the simple action of bringing the Taurus name back was the turning point in the recovery of Ford Motor Company. Since the Taurus has made a return we are finally seeing some optimism from the people at Ford and from the media. There is a LONG way to go, but I do feel a little more upbeat about Ford making it out of their hole since the Taurus is coming off the assembly line again.

Edited July 2, 2007 by 2005Explorer

[RichardJensen]

Related question...

 

Why is Honda able to squeeze out more fuel economy out of its I4s with no drop in HP?

Institutional knowledge.

 

Why is the F-Series consistently a leader in payload, towing, and frame strength?

 

Why does GM get better gas mileage from their V8s than anyone else?

 

There is a superior body of knowledge that is consistently expanded upon in these engineering centers.

 

When people climb all over Ford for not out-Camrying the Camry or out-According the Accord right out of the box, they do a severe disservice to engineers at Honda and Toyota.

 

The only, and I stress this, the ONLY reason why Ford was competitive out of the box with the Fusion was because they used a Mazda chassis. Ditto the Five Hundred and its Volvo chassis.

 

When it came to adapting those platforms, Ford's engineers were starting well behind their counterparts at Honda and Toyota.

 

Judging by the improvements made to the Taurus, engineers at Ford have been quick studies, but it is just as fair to assume that the true leaders in the sedan segment will continue to be Honda and Toyota.

 

---

 

But seriously, getting to top seller status (as has been observed) requires ongoing improvement. It's rarely something that happens over night.

[BlackHorse]

Institutional knowledge.

 

Why is the F-Series consistently a leader in payload, towing, and frame strength?

 

Why does GM get better gas mileage from their V8s than anyone else?

 

There is a superior body of knowledge that is consistently expanded upon in these engineering centers.

 

When people climb all over Ford for not out-Camrying the Camry or out-According the Accord right out of the box, they do a severe disservice to engineers at Honda and Toyota.

 

The only, and I stress this, the ONLY reason why Ford was competitive out of the box with the Fusion was because they used a Mazda chassis. Ditto the Five Hundred and its Volvo chassis.

 

When it came to adapting those platforms, Ford's engineers were starting well behind their counterparts at Honda and Toyota.

 

Judging by the improvements made to the Taurus, engineers at Ford have been quick studies, but it is just as fair to assume that the true leaders in the sedan segment will continue to be Honda and Toyota.

 

---

 

But seriously, getting to top seller status (as has been observed) requires ongoing improvement. It's rarely something that happens over night.

 

Ok I'm glad you posted that Richard because this reminds me of a question I've had for years with regard to the auto industry and particularly Ford. As you pointed out, people get upset about "Why can't Ford make a midsize FWD passenger sedan that's every bit as innovative, well engineered and. let's say for the sake of this point, fuel efficient as a Honda Accord?" I think it's a fair question and maybe you or some of the Ford guys here could shed some light on it because here is how I see it.

 

You're a desinger / engineer at Ford and Honda releases the latest Accord and it's got all of these neat features desgined into it and the smooth running 4 banger (although I think the 2.3 is a pretty good motor) and it gets a great ride and superb fuel economy and all of that right? So,what is stopping Ford from buying 8 or 10 Accords, taking them back to some Ford facility and meticulously dismanteling the things piece by piece, software program by software program to figure out how Honda does it? What?

 

Some people have told me the real problem is in quality control at the production level. I don't know enough about it to know for sure, but if it's not, if the real problem is Honda just designed a better car, then why not get ahold of some and figure out how they did it. Just reverse engineer the damn things until you get to that point where you say "Ohhhhhh, I seeeee." and then incorporate something like that into the Ford cars. And then you said?

Edited July 2, 2007 by BlackHorse

[RichardJensen]

You're a desinger / engineer at Ford and Honda releases the latest Accord and it's got all of these neat features desgined into it and the smooth running 4 banger (although I think the 2.3 is a pretty good motor) and it gets a great ride and superb fuel economy and all of that right? So,what is stopping Ford from buying 8 or 10 Accords, taking them back to some Ford facility and meticulously dismanteling the things piece by piece, software program by software program to figure out how Honda does it? What?

Well, it's like this: how much time are you going to spend figuring out why Honda used this particular fastener in that particular location? And then, are you going to know how to translate that into what you plan on doing with your part?

 

There are 10,000 parts in a car. You can't reverse engineer all of them.

 

Cars and trucks ARE meticulously dismantled, but it is very difficult to put what you learn into context.

 

Consider: Toyota brought the Tundra to market with rear disc brakes that were smaller than Ford's and smaller than their front discs.

 

Why was this decision made? How many engineers realized the value of having larger brakes in the rear? Was brake performance under heavy payload measured?

 

It's not just engineering, it's also testing that points up differences in institutional knowledge. What is being tested, where is it being tested, what constitutes failure, what constitutes success?

[BlackHorse]

I understand what you mean, but from my perspective, if you want to find out how Honda makes their power train run so smooth and get such good mileage, it seems to me the best way to figure that out is to get your hands on one and reverse through it until you figure it out. Is it that they use a great fuel delivery which atomizes the fuel very efficiently and thus provides a very smooth running engine? Is it a well balanced crank? Is it just a good transmission? Things like that. I don't think they would necessarily need to reverse how the seat belt is fastened to the B post, but if you have a team that does nothing but takes apart competitor cars to see how they do things full time, why not?

[RichardJensen]

it seems to me the best way to figure that out is to get your hands on one and reverse through it until you figure it out

Even if you could do this, you may be looking at patent and/or copyright violation if you copy it outright. You'd have to figure out what works, why it works, and how to get it to work some other way.

 

Other considerations also come into play: Ford will not use a timing belt on any of their OHC engines. This means sacrificing some refinement for durability.

 

Reverse engineering should be done, and it can be quite useful, but it seldom provides a 100% solution--the 'little things' seem to be out of reach: look how hard Toyota has been trying with the IS, and they haven't caught BMW; or the Tundra & the F150.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Well l don’t think the Japanese have been to bothered or concerned about copyright violation over the years Richard, l expect that during the Mondeo launch last weekend in Europe, they already have bought the new Mondeo from somewhere in Europe, and have had it shipped by air back to Japan already, dismantled into thousands of bits just to analyse why the Mondeo handles so much better than there own cars. One year down the line every car they produce will handle just as well Mondeo, it will go quietly unnoticed by motoring press as they don’t tend to leave the driving seat, they might give the engine bay a quick glance over, but l have never yet heard oh that New Improved Toyota Suspension (NITS) geometry looks identical to the Mondeos layout. Yes it’s about time Ford played the Japanese at its own game, if it will benefit Ford.

Why should everybody else be the innovators with expensive R&D, only to come along and see the Japanese copy all the best ideas and features for peanuts? You mentioned copy the bullet proof Honda engine, it might have something to with the way Honda Techs are trained, sometimes you find Engineers that came from X company always seem to be meticulous with everything they do, whist others that served their time with Y company were always sloppy & can’t be bothered, the service side of things sometimes get overlooked. But it would be worth it to find out how they get 200,000 mile bullet proof reliability, better MPG or BHP from the same sized engine as Fords by reverse engineering a Honda, the Japanese are the masters of reverse engineering.

[Automotive Paint]

The one thing the Big 3 doesn't have overall is RESALE!

 

As someone (business owner who drives a lot) who has methodically and carefully bought new and traded every ~14 months for the last 13 years I see 2 major reasons why Big 3 resale tends to but not always lag significantly behind the Toyota's and the Honda's:

 

1. The Big 3 must produce more units than the market can absorb which leads to predictable rebates month after month year after year which kills resale. How many people do you think have tried to trade their 2-3 yo Big 3 ride and heard, "The reason we can't give you x is because the new units have $2000-$4000 rebates and special financing and this makes your car worth several $1000 less than what it should be." How many times will John Q Consumer take a bath at trade time before he realizes there must be a model in this class that has better than average or excellent resale? Which leads me to....

 

 

2. The Japs for the most part across the country sell consistent packages/sub-models with minimal actual available options while the Big 3 models for the most part have a laundry list of options that will be worth little or most likely nothing at trade time. I bet any used car manager in this country knows for the most part what that Accord V-6 SE is going to look like inside and out before he ever walks around the building to appraise it because they are consistently equipped from package to package and car to car. Now if he has an XLT F-250 PSD he has no clue what he's getting into until he sees it because that truck could literally have $10K in options and that doesn't even include the diesel motor and auto tranny options. This ala cart philosophy the Big 3 seems to be fascinated with kills its consumer when it comes time to trade because the majority of options on a well equipped vehicle don't even show up in the 'books' and the ones that do rarely amount to squat.

 

Packages/sub models like XLT, FX4, Lariat need to be standardized in a way which they all but define the unit without seeing it. The only options should be big ticket items like NAV, DVD and Sunroof that actually show up a NADA book.

 

Just my .02 as a consumer who has not only bought a lot of vehicles for himself but has brokered deals for family and close friends.

Edited July 3, 2007 by Automotive Paint