If At First You Don't Succeed, Recall 'Em Again, Dammit !

[RJ Kanary]

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article...2031/1014/rss13

 

This doesn't exactly instill confidence in the Blue Oval's problem solving skills, now does it ?

[BlackHorse]

LOL, Yeah, ok, whatever mister 58 posts in 4 years. We have enough "johnny rain clouds" around here now that posts all the time. Part time trolling will have no effect. lol Thanks anyway.

[RJ Kanary]

Maybe explaining to you what I was doing during ANOTHER four years of my life may sharpen your perception of MY POV.

 

Four years as a Drivetrain Tech at a Blue Oval store.

 

So what has made YOU such an authority on what I've experienced, and how it squares with the realities of why the Wizards Of Dearborn are where they are in the marketplace ?

[mettech]

He is the "Post Master".

[ViperPilot]

Maybe explaining to you what I was doing during ANOTHER four years of my life may sharpen your perception of MY POV.

 

Four years as a Drivetrain Tech at a Blue Oval store.

 

So what has made YOU such an authority on what I've experienced, and how it squares with the realities of why the Wizards Of Dearborn are where they are in the marketplace ?

You would think that with your years of experience as a "drivetrain tech" that you would have recognized and pointed out the problem to Ford a long time ago and saved them the headache, right?

 

if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[RJ Kanary]

I didn't have to.The Service Manager is the one who asked the question [Rhetorically, but it was still great to hear it. <G>]

 

" Why doesn't someone in the Blue Oval brain trust just send a filing cabinet with all the recall information WITH the cars & trucks when they are delivered to us ? "

 

Face it. There are quality issues.In parts and in the finished product.

 

As another Detroit paper article pointed out............

 

{Detroit News}"It tells you a lot about the quality control systems that are in place both at Ford and at its vendors," said Sean Kane of Safety Research & Strategies Inc., a vehicle safety research and advocacy firm based in Rehoboth, Mass. "It was embarrassing enough for them the first time." "

 

And I DID do something about it.I fixed 'Issues' and'Concerns'.Many of them.Also,I inherited a '69 F-100 Ranger from my Dad,(No recalls.) and I got disabled so I don't have to work on anything anymore.

 

So, what are YOU doing about it ? <VBG>

[Pioneer]

LOL, Yeah, ok, whatever mister 58 posts in 4 years. We have enough "johnny rain clouds" around here now that posts all the time. Part time trolling will have no effect. lol Thanks anyway.

 

"Johnny rain cloud" or not, this is news.

[ViperPilot]

So, what are YOU doing about it ? <VBG>

I do what I can from my position in the company to ensure that what customers get is what they are paying for. I can sincerely say that in my 20 years I've never knowingly "shipped" anything that I wouldn't have taken myself. Does that mean it's possible that things may have gotten out without my knowledge and despite my best efforts? In 20 years and the millions of vehicles I've been involved with in that time, I'm nearly certain. Does that make me not care or call into question my skills? I don't think so.

 

The point I am making is this. Ford changed (or are changing) the harness on a few million cars. 225,000 of those get recalled (probably made by an outside vendor -- but regardless still embarrassing for Ford) . How did they get into the customer's cars? Teleportation? Shoemaker elves?

 

No, they were put in 225,000 times by Dealership techs. Oh and I'm sure that a fair share of them were put in by "ASE® Certified Master Auto Technicians" like yourself. So tell me this. A harness pigtail gets made at a Ford factory/vendor, sealed in a bag, sent to a dealership, and gets installed by a supposed "professional" and nobody notices the defect; so who's to blame? You're the first to jump on "Blue Oval's problem solving skills"; but in reality the people that "solved the problem" (ie engineers) have nothing to do with the manufacture or installation of said solution.

 

So for the one or two or ten people at the harness factory responsible for quality, there are 50,000 dealership techs out there that didn't notice either. So why is your statement not "doesn't instill confidence in the Ford Dealership Service's skills, does it?"

 

See, it's easy to point fingers when it's "someone else", right?

Edited February 3, 2008 by ViperPilot

[RJ Kanary]

< but in reality the people that "solved the problem" (ie engineers) have nothing to do with the manufacture or installation of said solution.>

 

If someone had been 'on the ball' and had not powered that circuit with an "always hot" feed, with a fuse that had a rating too high to protect the wiring to the CC cancel switch, they wouldn't have to devise an work around for the issue, would they ?

 

And as far as the Techs not discovering they are installing a substandard part........who assigned them to be the last link in the chain of quality control? Was a Special Service Message generated to do a final verification of "Fitness and Suitablitiy for a particular purpose " ?

 

<So for the one or two or ten people at the harness factory responsible for quality, there are 50,000 dealership techs out there that didn't notice either. So why is your statement not "doesn't instill confidence in the Ford Dealership Service's skills, does it?">

 

Were the Dealership Techs also supposed to do the Failure Mode Analysis after the fires stated breaking out also?

 

So where did things actually fall apart. In the trenches, or in the labs and offices ?

 

 

This same ASE® tech that you apparently despise is the one that worked with the Wizards to track down software errors in the PCM as far as transmission control 'concerns' in pick up trucks in the mid Nineties.So my concerns for the customers vehicles in my care was valid. I did the best that could be done.

 

Remember the transfer case issue during that same period of time that allowed vehicles to disappear from owner's driveways? Yup, that lowly Dealership Service Tech again.

 

As vehicle complexity has increased, the effort to prevent problems like this has not kept pace.Where does the responsibility ultimately lie for this ?

 

So, show me how MY actions enter in to all this. What I did during during MY tour was done under the auspices of FoMoCo, using their service training, their techniques, their facilities, their parts. And I did just so.

[ViperPilot]

If someone had been 'on the ball' and had not powered that circuit with an "always hot" feed, with a fuse that had a rating too high to protect the wiring to the CC cancel switch, they wouldn't have to devise an work around for the issue, would they ?

That horse has already left the barn. You can engage in an esoteric argument about whether it was a wise choice to constantly power the circuit with someone else. Because that, of course, isn't directly the topic of the thread that you started. You started this thread to laugh and point about about the recall of the repair.

 

And as far as the Techs not discovering they are installing a substandard part........who assigned them to be the last link in the chain of quality control?

Translation: "It's not my job"? Sounds like another excuse in a chain of excuses. Admit it. If a tech puts in a broken spark plug, do the techs blame the spark plug company too? I would expect a professional that works at a shop that charges $80-$110 an hour shop time to recognize a defective part, at least an appreciable percentage of the 225,000 times. Blaming Ford "entirely" is just more of the same incompetence that you imply the company has.

 

So where did things actually fall apart. In the trenches, or in the labs and offices ?

The truth is, there's probably enough blame to go around. However, you're the one who obviously feels that those in the trenches are totally without blame.

 

This same ASE® tech that you apparently despise ...

Hold on, Sunshine. Don't attempt to turn this into a personal thing. I never said that I despised anyone -- because I don't. What I did say is that while you seem to be the first to condemn the company, you also absolve the installer? The installer spent as much or more time with the part in their hand as anyone else in the "chain". Last time I checked, auto techs have some basic electrical training as part of their curriculum. The pigtail is a fuse for Gawd's sake. Not a PCM or a GEM module. A damned fuse.

 

Crap happens, people make mistakes. Embarassing? Of course, every manufacturer out there has its share. Microsoft makes the xBox, with a proven failure rate of at least 15%. Does that mean that you doubt the "problem solving skills" of everyone at the company?

 

The most important thing is that the problem was discovered and that they are working to rectify it. Despite the embarassment.

[RJ Kanary]

<Translation: "It's not my job"? Sounds like another excuse in a chain of excuses. Admit it. If a tech puts in a broken spark plug, do the techs blame the spark plug company too? I would expect a professional that works at a shop that charges $80-$110 an hour shop time to recognize a defective part, at least an appreciable percentage of the 225,000 times. Blaming Ford "entirely" is just more of the same incompetence that you imply the company has.>

 

I would loved to have worked in a Dealership that had labor rates that high.That's not the case here in Western PA.

 

And what are the details of the failure of the part that was neccessitated by a 'concern' that has already "left the barn" ? How long after those parts "left the barn" was this latest FUBAR uncovered?

 

Again I ask what testing procedures were publish for the Tech to use to verify that the part supplied was going to be the proper one to resolve the issue that the FIRST one was supposed to address ? And does the Warranty pay for the extra time needed to certify the quality of said part ?

 

Yes I have broken spark plugs. I knew exactly how it happened and when. And it didn't take too long to figure it out, either. What's you point here ? I know who broke it. When you unpackage a part, be it as simple as a fuse, to you immediately assume that it is faulty ?

 

{Now would be a grand time to bring up the spark plug issues in both families of Triton engines wouldn't it ? }

[ViperPilot]

I would loved to have worked in a Dealership that had labor rates that high.That's not the case here in Western PA.

Well, I vacation in Western PA every year, and considering the comparatively low wages that most of the workers at the resort get paid, I believe you. But in most place I've seen the shop rates they charge are pretty dear for work being done by someone who by your own opinion shouldn't be expected to inspect the parts they're installing in people's cars.

 

And what are the details of the failure of the part that was neccessitated by a 'concern' that has already "left the barn" ? How long after those parts "left the barn" was this latest FUBAR uncovered?

Don't you know? I figured you must have the answers to be able to make the call as to whether the defect could have been caught or not. We all know that the original cruise-control problems didn't manifest itself until years after the car was built.

 

Again I ask what testing procedures were publish for the Tech to use to verify that the part supplied was going to be the proper one to resolve the issue that the FIRST one was supposed to address ?

It's a pigtail. C'mon you need a test procedure to test a fuse? Glad to see all that time in "mechanic school" paid off. Damn, even a Canadian Tire tech can test a fuse. (If you don't get the reference, CT is a company that historically employs a lot of inexperienced techs).

 

And does the Warranty pay for the extra time needed to certify the quality of said part ?

Why is it that any time someone brings up a "tech" cutting corners, people start whining about flat rate times? Everyone has downward pressure on their wages. Maybe the person making the pigtails got replaced by a second-tier worker. Should he be absolved of responsibility in doing his job as well?

 

Yes I have broken spark plugs. I knew exactly how it happened and when. And it didn't take too long to figure it out, either. What's you point here ? I know who broke it. When you unpackage a part, be it as simple as a fuse, to you immediately assume that it is faulty ?

No you don't assume that; do you think that the spark plug/fuse company put it the package knowing it was faulty? That's the point. Without knowing a) the nature of the defect in the replacement part, B) who caused it, c) why so many got out, you can't make quips like "This doesn't exactly instill confidence in the Blue Oval's problem solving skills, now does it ? " without getting called on it.

[RJ Kanary]

<Well, I vacation in Western PA every year, and considering the comparatively low wages that most of the workers at the resort get paid, I believe you. But in most place I've seen the shop rates they charge are pretty dear for work being done by someone who by your own opinion shouldn't be expected to inspect the parts they're installing in people's cars.>

 

Remember to keep that thought in mind the next time that YOUR vehicle exhibits an 'issue' or 'concern'. <G>

 

Is not not the Manufacturer, after all, that stipulates how services or repairs are to be performed?And Dealers, do they not have guidelines for shop rates that the Manufacturer believes are sustainable in that particular market ?

 

<Don't you know? I figured you must have the answers to be able to make the call as to whether the defect could have been caught or not. We all know that the original cruise-control problems didn't manifest itself until years after the car was built.>

 

If I do something wrong TWICE, who is at fault in that circumstance ? One who 'has all the answers' lacks the ability to recognise an error.....TWICE.

 

<It's a pigtail. C'mon you need a test procedure to test a fuse? Glad to see all that time in "mechanic school" paid off. Damn, even a Canadian Tire tech can test a fuse. (If you don't get the reference, CT is a company that historically employs a lot of inexperienced techs).>

 

But is such testing AUTHORISED by the Manufacturer? Is it part of the repair procedure AS PUBLISHED by the Manufacturer?

 

{And yes, I have Canadian Techs on a transmission group that share their experiences with vehicles that previously visited CT.}

 

 

<Why is it that any time someone brings up a "tech" cutting corners, people start whining about flat rate times? Everyone has downward pressure on their wages. Maybe the person making the pigtails got replaced by a second-tier worker. Should he be absolved of responsibility in doing his job as well?>

 

Is the production line employee charged with QC responsibilities? If so, the answer is apparent.

Time IS money.Wrench slingers are not licensed as not for profit charitable organizations.Last time I investigated it, Quality Control investgation wasn't on the Labor Menu.

 

<No you don't assume that; do you think that the spark plug/fuse company put it the package knowing it was faulty? That's the point. Without knowing a) the nature of the defect in the replacement part, who caused it, c) why so many got out, you can't make quips like "This doesn't exactly instill confidence in the Blue Oval's problem solving skills, now does it ? " without getting called on it.>

 

And just why CAN'T I make quips like that? With all the resources that are available to assure that a product will function as intended by the time John Q. Public purchases it, why is it that a known safety issue is STILL out there, and the work around parts to 'address this concern' aren't correct either ?

 

You can "call me" all you want on this topic.It still doen't erase the fact that recalls are getting to be a larger problem not a smaller one.

 

THAT kind of concern for quality is NOT going to foster confidence in ANY product............be it a light bulb, a fuse, or an automobile that costs more than the house I own.<VBG>

[ViperPilot]

Remember to keep that thought in mind the next time that YOUR vehicle exhibits an 'issue' or 'concern'. <G>

Keep what in mind? That you can't depend on a dealer tech to think past their TSBs and procedures? ROFL, Ok I will.

 

But is such testing AUTHORISED by the Manufacturer? Is it part of the repair procedure AS PUBLISHED by the Manufacturer?

Do you call the warranty center for procedure to pick a dropped bolt off the floor?

 

Obviously, the actual defect on the replacement part wasn't something "obvious" in nature; because if it was I would like to think that a couple of "free thinking" techs would have pointed it out before 225,000 of them were installed.

 

Is the production line employee charged with QC responsibilities?

Every worker on the line has the responsibilty to inspect the parts they put on the car and to bring quality concerns up to supervision.

 

I suppose there are people out there that do their job and those that don't; just like there's dealers that charge $120 for a 4-wheel alignment (I only took the car to the dealer because the car is under its extended warranty). And I took it back 2 times because they frakked it up twice. I could've taken it anywhere else and got it done under $100. You can't blame Ford FRT for that one, can you? It wasn't a warranty job. That was a direct billing 20% over what the going rate of a shop who doesn't need mom to hold their hand for "procedure". Where was their "quality control"? Any idiot that holds a driver's license could tell the car pulled (which it didn't when I brought it in -- I got the alignment as a precaution when I bought new tires).

 

Oh, it must've been the alignment rack's fault.

 

Or isn't the alignment procedure for a Focus in depth enough? :shades:

 

But you don't see me on here bitching about how my "confidence in all dealerships" has been shaken -- Go to the Vehicle Tracking section of this forum, look at some of my 2500 posts there helping customers and try to find one post that puts down dealers.

 

 

THAT kind of concern for quality is NOT going to foster confidence in ANY product............be it a light bulb, a fuse, or an automobile that costs more than the house I own.<VBG>

If you spend more on a depreciating vehicle cost more than the investment you made in your house, you either need financial counselling or a priority check.

[RJ Kanary]

<Keep what in mind? That you can't depend on a dealer tech to think past their TSBs and procedures? ROFL, Ok I will..

 

Is THAT what the Mavens Of The Blue Oval Expect ?

 

I can't speak for all Dealer Techs. Especially since THAT chapter in my life closed over twelve years ago. About the time the SECOND round of Taurus subframe mount recalls were being performed.

 

<Do you call the warranty center for procedure to pick a dropped bolt off the floor?

 

Depends on the bolt.

 

Obviously, the actual defect on the replacement part wasn't something "obvious" in nature; because if it was I would like to think that a couple of "free thinking" techs would have pointed it out before 225,000 of them were installed.>

 

But isn't QC supposed to ferret out not so obvious issues that can impinge on a products performance?And again, did the Service Procedure outline a verification of proper installation and function ?

 

 

<Every worker on the line has the responsibilty to inspect the parts they put on the car and to bring quality concerns up to supervision.

 

I suppose there are people out there that do their job and those that don't; just like there's dealers that charge $120 for a 4-wheel alignment (I only took the car to the dealer because the car is under its extended warranty). And I took it back 2 times because they frakked it up twice. I could've taken it anywhere else and got it done under $100. You can't blame Ford FRT for that one, can you? It wasn't a warranty job. That was a direct billing 20% over what the going rate of a shop who doesn't need mom to hold their hand for "procedure". Where was their "quality control"? Any idiot that holds a driver's license could tell the car pulled (which it didn't when I brought it in -- I got the alignment as a precaution when I bought new tires).

 

<Oh, it must've been the alignment rack's fault.>

 

Was this possible cause of failure investigated as plausible?

 

<Or isn't the alignment procedure for a Focus in depth enough?>

 

Have you ever performed an alignment on one? I haven't.

 

But you don't see me on here bitching about how my "confidence in all dealerships" has been shaken -- Go to the Vehicle Tracking section of this forum, look at some of my 2500 posts there helping customers and try to find one post that puts down dealers.>

 

Accountability requires documentation.What did the print outs from the alignment machine display as far as parameters in spec, and those that were not 'preferred' settings?Is the software for the machine up to date? Have all the calibrations that the machine requires been performed............correctly?Who is the responsible party in THIS saga?

 

It's wonderful that you have such a magnanimous attitude for dealers.Since I never have and never will purchase a new vehicle, my chances of gaining some of life's experiences from the other side of the counter are nil.After all, they don't design 'em or build 'em. They just sell 'em and [sometimes] fix'em. <G>And after some of the things that I witnessed as far as warranty repairs go, there are some customers I really felt sorry for.

 

<If you spend more on a depreciating vehicle cost more than the investment you made in your house, you either need financial counselling or a priority check. >

 

I appreciate you concern for my financial well being. My humble abode cost $25 K 28 years ago.The only household items that were subject to a recall were the guard on my B&D string trimmer, (They sent a pre-paid box to send it back so they could 'address the concern'.), and the internal wiring harness in my Maytag dishwasher that oddly enough posed a fire hazard.[They dispatched a local appliance Tech to perform and verify the repair.]

 

And they only had to do those things ONCE. <VBG>