scottfisher Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 (edited) On the vertical bar graph gauge, with about 15 bars being full, I am constantly running at 6-8 bars, probably the equivalent of a 40-60 % charge. I have done quite well in running around in full electric mode, but seems to be that I have found a breakpoint where it is to my detriment. Almost impossible to take-off in electric from dead stop, at 25 mpg, any slight incline in road causes ICE to kick in. Last night while sitting in a fast food drivethru the ICE kicked on to "charge while idle", thats a first having the ICE come on when idling, and that was on a hot system after some highway driving. Want to get my HEV Battery level up, any tips ? Edited October 22, 2008 by scottfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 On the vertical bar graph gauge, with about 15 bars being full, I am constantly running at 6-8 bars, probably the equivalent of a 40-60 % charge. I have done quite well in running around in full electric mode, but seems to be that I have found a breakpoint where it is to my detriment. Almost impossible to take-off in electric from dead stop, at 25 mpg, any slight incline in road causes ICE to kick in. Last night while sitting in a fast food drivethru the ICE kicked on to "charge while idle", thats a first having the ICE come on when idling, and that was on a hot system after some highway driving. Want to get my HEV Battery level up, any tips ? Hi Scott I strongly recommend getting a Scangauge II and program State of Charge (SoC) in it. The bar graph on the Nav Sys is a POS as far as a SoC gauge. The SGII gives you the percentage of SoC and you know exactly when the engine is going to come on and shutdown. For the best MPG you don't want to carry around a high SOC because EV is where to the best mileage is found. Ford programmed the '09 FEH/MMH to run in EV under 40mph as much as possible and that's why your having a hard time keeping the SoC high. Any time you run above 40mph your battery will charge to the maximum of 52% and it allows the regen brakes to take it as high as 60%. Normal range is 40% - 60%, but during a cold start the battery can drop to as much as 32% during the warm-up Strategy programmed to reduce emissions. To prevent a start-up at a stoplight or drive-thru you must know your SoC percentage level and calculate how much time you'll be stopped. The battery SoC continues to drop even at a stop and that's why you get a restart when the battery SoC reaches 40%. I just turn the key off in Park and restart when I need to go for long stopping times like a train, bank drive-thru and long stoplights. A restart takes about .3% SoC so I estimate weather it's best to Key-Off or just stay in EV. If I know I'm going to get a restart at a stop because I have a low SoC, I key-off most of the time depending on how long the engine will run before I can get moving. Remember this vehicle is designed for unlimited starts because there is no standard starter motor like most gas only vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lantern Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Hi Scott I strongly recommend getting a Scangauge II and program State of Charge (SoC) in it. The bar graph on the Nav Sys is a POS as far as a SoC gauge. The SGII gives you the percentage of SoC and you know exactly when the engine is going to come on and shutdown. For the best MPG you don't want to carry around a high SOC because EV is where to the best mileage is found. Ford programmed the '09 FEH/MMH to run in EV under 40mph as much as possible and that's why your having a hard time keeping the SoC high. Any time you run above 40mph your battery will charge to the maximum of 52% and it allows the regen brakes to take it as high as 60%. Normal range is 40% - 60%, but during a cold start the battery can drop to as much as 32% during the warm-up Strategy programmed to reduce emissions. To prevent a start-up at a stoplight or drive-thru you must know your SoC percentage level and calculate how much time you'll be stopped. The battery SoC continues to drop even at a stop and that's why you get a restart when the battery SoC reaches 40%. I just turn the key off in Park and restart when I need to go for long stopping times like a train, bank drive-thru and long stoplights. A restart takes about .3% SoC so I estimate weather it's best to Key-Off or just stay in EV. If I know I'm going to get a restart at a stop because I have a low SoC, I key-off most of the time depending on how long the engine will run before I can get moving. Remember this vehicle is designed for unlimited starts because there is no standard starter motor like most gas only vehicles. Gary...thanks for the excellent tips as always on the SGII. I am using mine and find myself really enjoying using it and learning how to better operate my FEH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottfisher Posted October 22, 2008 Author Share Posted October 22, 2008 Hi Scott I strongly recommend getting a Scangauge II and program State of Charge (SoC) in it. The bar graph on the Nav Sys is a POS as far as a SoC gauge. The SGII gives you the percentage of SoC and you know exactly when the engine is going to come on and shutdown. For the best MPG you don't want to carry around a high SOC because EV is where to the best mileage is found. Ford programmed the '09 FEH/MMH to run in EV under 40mph as much as possible and that's why your having a hard time keeping the SoC high. Any time you run above 40mph your battery will charge to the maximum of 52% and it allows the regen brakes to take it as high as 60%. Normal range is 40% - 60%, but during a cold start the battery can drop to as much as 32% during the warm-up Strategy programmed to reduce emissions. I understand that a Scangauge would do a much better job monitoring system, that said, based on your figures, its looks as though the factory display is reading in that 40-60 % range. I am constantly +/- 2 bars within that 50 % mark on the display. Quite suprised that 40-60 is considered normal, and that charge limits are set at 52 %, this would explain why I cannot acheive higher bar graph display. I do not get much out of regen braking, alot of coasting up to stops and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I understand that a Scangauge would do a much better job monitoring system, that said, based on your figures, its looks as though the factory display is reading in that 40-60 % range. I am constantly +/- 2 bars within that 50 % mark on the display. Quite suprised that 40-60 is considered normal, and that charge limits are set at 52 %, this would explain why I cannot acheive higher bar graph display. I do not get much out of regen braking, alot of coasting up to stops and such. I don't even bother monitoring the Nav Sys SoC gauge but I do remember 4 bars is 40% and a restart occurs there from EV. The SGII SoC gauge is the most important gauge to me and allows me to plan my stops without the engine running charging the battery. You can't use "L" for heavy regen charging in the '09 FEH/MMH like I do in my '05 FEH, but you can get the same effect using the brake pedal wisely. Understand also that anytime you decelerate in "D", you not only get part or full Fuel-Cut, you get regen. Now that GL (Green Lantern) has a SGII, he can monitor how decel (DFSO) increases your mileage and charges the battery at the same time. I love this about the '09 because it allows a much better P&G (Pulse and Glide) in Drive. The only reason I use Drive for the glide (coast) is because of DFSO. When in EV I use Neutral for the glide because it eliminates regen for a 36% longer coast than in Drive. Scott, learn to use the brakes for regen by watching your Assist/Charge gauge. I use all regen and no brake pads until I come to a complete stop. Regen from MG2 (Traction Motor) is the fastest way to recharge your battery and charges much faster than MG1 (Motor/Generator 1). Like I stated, MGI and the engine can only charge the battery to 52% and to take the battery to 60% (upper limit) SoC, you must do it with regen from the wheels and MG2. There is one exception and that is when the battery goes through a conditioning strategy. The PCM and Battery Control Module command a battery Conditioning Strategy to keep the battery working properly. If GL monitors his new SGII Instant MPG gauge and SoC gauge he might witness this event. Very strange process that I witnessed while my Cruise Control was set on the highway at 55mph. All of a sudden my Instant MPG started going down slightly and my SoC started climbing. The SoC went past 60% and I knew for sure the battery was being Conditioned. I left the CC at 55mph while this was happening and the SGII SoC peaked at 82%. Then the big surprise..... as the battery started to discharge the Instant MPG gauge went to over 90mpg until the battery SoC return to the normal range. Wow! this means MG2 can assist the engine constantly to increase MPG if we had a larger Lithium Plug-in battery. In addition, if EV is limited to 40mph, we can still get great (90mpg) highway mileage. This is the reason I chose to keep my '05 FEH and up-grade with a lithium plug-in battery after the warranty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoomlmk Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 This is probably a stupid question but why the heck didn't Ford allow the battery to charge up past 62%? or w/e the max figure was? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 This is probably a stupid question but why the heck didn't Ford allow the battery to charge up past 62%? or w/e the max figure was? The main reason for the 52% max MG1 and the engine can charge is to allow a regen .8% of space. When your on the highway and reach 52% SoC, the engine load is reduced because the small generator is no longer on line. Letting off gas pedal in Drive at that speed (coasting) adds regen and the SoC increases above the 52%. This provides power to the lights, ignition and coolant motor etc. to operate without the load on the engine needing to run the generator. This improves highway MPG and I also use it in the high speed P&G to get additional MPG. Also, when the generator is not charging a full battery at 52%, it is used in the negative split mode to reduce engine RPM. This is the least fuel efficient mode for the eCVT because battery power is used by the generator to control engine RPM. This reserve above 52% (.8%) allows a reduction in the load on the engine to charge the battery. The maximum total operating limit is 60% SoC, not 62% in your question. The main reason Ford engineers programmed the normal operating range of 40% to 60% SoC is to prolong the life of the battery. The battery is limited to the number of charges and discharges and by reducing the minimum and maximum charges, it increases the life of the battery. In some green states the law require Ford to warranty the HV battery for 10 years or 150,000 miles. Ford didn't want to replace these batteries so they protected them as much as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottfisher Posted October 23, 2008 Author Share Posted October 23, 2008 I had a long 35 and 25 mph zone today, probably 5 miles long, it wiped out the battery to the point that at 25 mph the ICE had to take over. I guess that is the way it is ? I'm at 37 mpg right now for today including this stretch of slow driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoomlmk Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 The main reason for the 52% max MG1 and the engine can charge is to allow a regen .8% of space. When your on the highway and reach 52% SoC, the engine load is reduced because the small generator is no longer on line. Letting off gas pedal in Drive at that speed (coasting) adds regen and the SoC increases above the 52%. This provides power to the lights, ignition and coolant motor etc. to operate without the load on the engine needing to run the generator. This improves highway MPG and I also use it in the high speed P&G to get additional MPG. Also, when the generator is not charging a full battery at 52%, it is used in the negative split mode to reduce engine RPM. This is the least fuel efficient mode for the eCVT because battery power is used by the generator to control engine RPM. This reserve above 52% (.8%) allows a reduction in the load on the engine to charge the battery. The maximum total operating limit is 60% SoC, not 62% in your question. The main reason Ford engineers programmed the normal operating range of 40% to 60% SoC is to prolong the life of the battery. The battery is limited to the number of charges and discharges and by reducing the minimum and maximum charges, it increases the life of the battery. In some green states the law require Ford to warranty the HV battery for 10 years or 150,000 miles. Ford didn't want to replace these batteries so they protected them as much as possible. I'll admit that all of that is slightly hard to follow, it does however make enough sense to me that I understand the overall purpose of the max charge. Thanks GaryG for explaining it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lantern Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I had a long 35 and 25 mph zone today, probably 5 miles long, it wiped out the battery to the point that at 25 mph the ICE had to take over. I guess that is the way it is ? I'm at 37 mpg right now for today including this stretch of slow driving. Scott I think in that situation you have to watch your SOC (or batt level on display if you don't have an SGII) and use some pulse and glide technique to regen your battery level some and thus allow you to maintain EV for longer stretches of the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatwaggon Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Scott, learn to use the brakes for regen by watching your Assist/Charge gauge. I use all regen and no brake pads until I come to a complete stop. Regen from MG2 (Traction Motor) is the fastest way to recharge your battery and charges much faster than MG1 (Motor/Generator 1). Like I stated, MGI and the engine can only charge the battery to 52% and to take the battery to 60% (upper limit) SoC, you must do it with regen from the wheels and MG2. There is one exception and that is when the battery goes through a conditioning strategy. The PCM and Battery Control Module command a battery Conditioning Strategy to keep the battery working properly. If GL monitors his new SGII Instant MPG gauge and SoC gauge he might witness this event. Very strange process that I witnessed while my Cruise Control was set on the highway at 55mph. All of a sudden my Instant MPG started going down slightly and my SoC started climbing. The SoC went past 60% and I knew for sure the battery was being Conditioned. I left the CC at 55mph while this was happening and the SGII SoC peaked at 82%. Then the big surprise..... as the battery started to discharge the Instant MPG gauge went to over 90mpg until the battery SoC return to the normal range. Wow! this means MG2 can assist the engine constantly to increase MPG if we had a larger Lithium Plug-in battery. In addition, if EV is limited to 40mph, we can still get great (90mpg) highway mileage. This is the reason I chose to keep my '05 FEH and up-grade with a lithium plug-in battery after the warranty. This all sounds a bit too anal, no offense intended. I don't think I would enjoy driving this car as much if I constantly had to monitor all that stuff while driving, shift into this gear if in ICE, shift into that gear if in EV, coast this way, brake that way, monitor this gauge in that mode at x speed for y amount of time. Not to mention it would impair ability to monitor external traffic conditions. I'm sure I could get 40+ mpg doing all that stuff, but it sounds like to me getting those extra few mpg isn't worth that kind of constant vigilance and the detraction from the driving experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lantern Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 This all sounds a bit too anal, no offense intended. I don't think I would enjoy driving this car as much if I constantly had to monitor all that stuff while driving, shift into this gear if in ICE, shift into that gear if in EV, coast this way, brake that way, monitor this gauge in that mode at x speed for y amount of time. Not to mention it would impair ability to monitor external traffic conditions. I'm sure I could get 40+ mpg doing all that stuff, but it sounds like to me getting those extra few mpg isn't worth that kind of constant vigilance and the detraction from the driving experience. Meatwaggon...you can certainly drive this vehicle right out of the box and get great mileage. GaryG however, was answering some specific questions regarding the battery and SOC. He happens to be a true hypermiler and works to squeeze every last mpg he can get out of his vehicle. While I don't believe I will ever get to his level (nor do I actually care to in reality) it is certainly his right to operate his vehicle that way. I don't think anyone is telling you that you need to do all those things or you won't enjoy your FEH because you will love his vehicle any way you go. Nobody is going to criticize you for NOT driving the way Gary does so I don't think you should criticize the way he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatwaggon Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Well a guy was asking about the same conditions that I've experienced and the reply was to get a Scangauge and do all that stuff, which I was commenting that I don't want to do. I shouldn't have to to get at least the EPA numbers IMO. I don't blast the AC or floor the accelerator, after all..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lantern Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Well a guy was asking about the same conditions that I've experienced and the reply was to get a Scangauge and do all that stuff, which I was commenting that I don't want to do. I shouldn't have to to get at least the EPA numbers IMO. I don't blast the AC or floor the accelerator, after all..... You are exactly right...you do not have to use a SGII to achieve the estimated mileage figures or even to exceed them. It is just a tool that can be used to help you achieve even greater usage of the hybrid technology (but can also help anyone on a newer gas model vehicle as well) and better understand how your vehicle is performing using the multitude of data that it provides by reading directly from the vehicle's computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottfisher Posted October 24, 2008 Author Share Posted October 24, 2008 I'm thinkin I regret saying anything because every post on here lately turns into putting people at odds with each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lantern Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I'm thinkin I regret saying anything because every post on here lately turns into putting people at odds with each other. Scott, I am thinking that was probably meant for me and I apologize. I will try to play nicer Sorry man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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