Guessing what's happening at STAP/Ford/CAW

[stapelec]

Morning All

 

I'm just throwing this out there, opinions. A couple of us were talking about this morning.

 

 

This is what may be happening. I don't think they plan on closing the plant but Ford is not ready to say we're getting a new car yet. I think they will try to get us to except concessions based on a lucrative close out aggreement which they never intend on using. Sept. 2011 will come around and low and behold they announce they have a new car for us, but only if we take concessions again. So that would be 3 contracts they get concessions. I don't know if I'm right but it makes sense.

[Captain723]

Morning All

 

I'm just throwing this out there, opinions. A couple of us were talking about this morning.

 

 

This is what may be happening. I don't think they plan on closing the plant but Ford is not ready to say we're getting a new car yet. I think they will try to get us to except concessions based on a lucrative close out aggreement which they never intend on using. Sept. 2011 will come around and low and behold they announce they have a new car for us, but only if we take concessions again. So that would be 3 contracts they get concessions. I don't know if I'm right but it makes sense.

.....and what new car would that be?? I am not aware of any other programs out there!!

[stapelec]

.....and what new car would that be?? I am not aware of any other programs out there!!

 

A reskinned and redesigned CV, GM and TC.

[bodyman]

Only Ford knows what it wants to do. To take all speculation out of the equation, plan for a closure in 2 years ,and if we get something great, but if we don't than you have at least planned for the worst. They will not reskin this car if the Taurus has been announced to replace our car. Plan for closure, what do you have to lose, if you don't maybe you may lose alot more than you thought. Be smart.

[stapelec]

Only Ford knows what it wants to do. To take all speculation out of the equation, plan for a closure in 2 years ,and if we get something great, but if we don't than you have at least planned for the worst. They will not reskin this car if the Taurus has been announced to replace our car. Plan for closure, what do you have to lose, if you don't maybe you may lose alot more than you thought. Be smart.

 

 

I fully agree with what you're saying, as I said in the beginning, it's pure conjecture. But it was the Union that said we're closing, the Company said it's not announcing closure. The Union says prepare for the worst, so we do. But the Company wants options, especially if the new Taurus doen't sell as the new Police or Taxis vehicle.

 

There has to be a carrot to get us to except concessions. Whether it be a lucrative close out aggreement or maintaining Ford's footprint in Canada.

[iluvnascar]

Nobody knows what is going on behind the scenes. But if Lewenza and Jim Stanford et al haven't got all the politians - Federal/Provincial/Municipal - together yet, they are way behind the curve! If Government could loan BILLIONS to Chrysler and GM, why couldn't those same politicians offer Ford a large financial incentive (say $300 million) together with a $1 Billion in loans AT GOVERNMENT BORROWING RATES.........in return for a new product? The CAW would agree to give Ford the pattern agreement.......together with ADDITIONAL incentives, a no-strike clause for 10 years, and a lower new hire rate (to give Ford incentive to extend and/or modernize St. Thomas). If St. Thomas is going to be kept alive, it will take something really dramatic on the part of EVERYONE to get Ford's attention!

 

The politicians need to look at the cost to the economy if STAP goes under....versus the growth and wealth that could be created with a new product/plant. Let's face it - Southwestern Ontario has been devestated by automotive layoffs and Ontario is supposedly the driver of the Cdn economy.

 

Where is Joe Preston on this (STAP area politician)? Silent as usual? or waiting to see which way the wind is blowing?

[stapelec]

Nobody knows what is going on behind the scenes. But if Lewenza and Jim Stanford et al haven't got all the politians - Federal/Provincial/Municipal - together yet, they are way behind the curve! If Government could loan BILLIONS to Chrysler and GM, why couldn't those same politicians offer Ford a large financial incentive (say $300 million) together with a $1 Billion in loans AT GOVERNMENT BORROWING RATES.........in return for a new product? The CAW would agree to give Ford the pattern agreement.......together with ADDITIONAL incentives, a no-strike clause for 10 years, and a lower new hire rate (to give Ford incentive to extend and/or modernize St. Thomas). If St. Thomas is going to be kept alive, it will take something really dramatic on the part of EVERYONE to get Ford's attention!

 

The politicians need to look at the cost to the economy if STAP goes under....versus the growth and wealth that could be created with a new product/plant. Let's face it - Southwestern Ontario has been devestated by automotive layoffs and Ontario is supposedly the driver of the Cdn economy.

 

Where is Joe Preston on this (STAP area politician)? Silent as usual? or waiting to see which way the wind is blowing?

 

That sounds good and possible, the only catch is any new product has to go to the States. So it would have to be existing product. That brings up something else. Mazda wants Mustang out of Flatrock, where will it go?

[iluvnascar]

I've always believed that a Ford/Magna partnership would be a good way to go. Or Ford/Mazda.

 

I would not be surprised to see Ford "sell" the St. Thomas Plant to some other growing car company such as Hyundai.

 

But whatever happens, the wheels need to be in motion NOW. These things have a long lead time and the closer we get to 2011, the less chance that anything will happen. With our politicians having their head in the sand, it's going to take a lot of jawboning to get them on board!

[canuck_871]

I fully agree with what you're saying, as I said in the beginning, it's pure conjecture. But it was the Union that said we're closing, the Company said it's not announcing closure. The Union says prepare for the worst, so we do. But the Company wants options, especially if the new Taurus doen't sell as the new Police or Taxis vehicle.

 

There has to be a carrot to get us to except concessions. Whether it be a lucrative close out aggreement or maintaining Ford's footprint in Canada.

The concessions voted on for GM and Chrysler were to keep a 20% footprint in Canada. Lewenza was quoted recently as saying that currently Ford has a 14% footprint in Canada. If St Thomas were to close, that footprint would be down to less than ten percent!!! WTF! I think Ford has shown some very significant signs that they do not want to do business in Canada. I feel the only reason to give concessions would be to maintain or increase that 14% footprint in Canada. The company cannot have their cake and eat it too.

[iluvnascar]

The concessions voted on for GM and Chrysler were to keep a 20% footprint in Canada. Lewenza was quoted recently as saying that currently Ford has a 14% footprint in Canada. If St Thomas were to close, that footprint would be down to less than ten percent!!! WTF! I think Ford has shown some very significant signs that they do not want to do business in Canada. I feel the only reason to give concessions would be to maintain or increase that 14% footprint in Canada. The company cannot have their cake and eat it too.

 

The GM/Chrysler "footprints" were a condition of the Canadian Government's bailout plan. But Ford did not ask for anything from Government and Ford has no requirement to maintain anything in Canada. Frankly, they could probably care less if the CAW said no to concessions because they can certainly move production to the States (the UAW and Obama would love it)! So it should be obvious that Ford is in the driver's seat.....and the CAW has to come across or risk losing EVERYTHING, not just St. Thomas. On the other hand, Ford and the CAW have historically had a very good relationship - better than the relationships between the CAW and GM/Chrysler. So I think this is the time to suck it up and preserve jobs....whatever it takes. If anyone thinks the economy is due for a miracle cure anytime soon, they are sadly mistaken. I would not want to be job-hunting anytime in the forseeable future. A job with Ford - while not as good as a Government job - is pretty damn good at any wage scale.

[canuck_871]

The GM/Chrysler "footprints" were a condition of the Canadian Government's bailout plan. But Ford did not ask for anything from Government and Ford has no requirement to maintain anything in Canada. Frankly, they could probably care less if the CAW said no to concessions because they can certainly move production to the States (the UAW and Obama would love it)! So it should be obvious that Ford is in the driver's seat.....and the CAW has to come across or risk losing EVERYTHING, not just St. Thomas. On the other hand, Ford and the CAW have historically had a very good relationship - better than the relationships between the CAW and GM/Chrysler. So I think this is the time to suck it up and preserve jobs....whatever it takes. If anyone thinks the economy is due for a miracle cure anytime soon, they are sadly mistaken. I would not want to be job-hunting anytime in the forseeable future. A job with Ford - while not as good as a Government job - is pretty damn good at any wage scale.

I agree with what you are saying but Ford is not in as good of shape as people seem to think they are. The fact is that if the SAARS level for this year does not go above the ten million mark soon, then Ford will be out of money by years end and they too will be tapping into government funds. In fact, just recently Ford got a loan of 5.9 billion from the U.S. goverment to develop green technology.

I dont think for a minute that the government is standing by the side and letting the company and the union hash this out. Remember when the CEO's went to Washington to ask for help, Mullaly was there as well.

I am sure the CAW and UAW agreements will have to meet some level of government approval otherwise they will not cough up any money. Just look at how the government shredded up the first concession agreement between the CAW and GM.

[Back-Glass-Ass]

That sounds good and possible, the only catch is any new product has to go to the States. So it would have to be existing product. That brings up something else. Mazda wants Mustang out of Flatrock, where will it go?

First of all, Ford Bought the Flat Rock plant outright within the last year, so Mazda could want the Mustang to sit on a stick but it wouldn't effect anything that Ford is doing. Worse case scenario is Mazda pulls it product out of Flat Rock which could happen but I don't think that would help/hinder anything that goes on up there in Canada because I doubt the Mustang is moving.

 

Lastly, Plan on your plant closing, because it will most likely do just that.

People say: "but our quality is best....." "but our workforce is superior....." "but the local economy will......" and so on and so on...

They have already done the same things and said the same things at Atlanta, New Jersey, and Wixom and it didn't stop Ford from shuttering them.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Back-Glass-Ass

[iluvnascar]

.......Lastly, Plan on your plant closing, because it will most likely do just that.

People say: "but our quality is best....." "but our workforce is superior....." "but the local economy will......" and so on and so on...

They have already done the same things and said the same things at Atlanta, New Jersey, and Wixom and it didn't stop Ford from shuttering them.

 

 

Sad....but true.

[ute]

its all about the LEO's and Livery at this point

 

there's just no way there going with a D3 ..................................so Ford gives up the whole market to Chargers and Envoys ????????

 

 

and since NYC reversed its decision no more Hybrid Escapes

 

cant imagine any D3 holding up to any abuse they are a weak design

Edited July 10, 2009 by ute

[Captain723]

First of all, Ford Bought the Flat Rock plant outright within the last year, so Mazda could want the Mustang to sit on a stick but it wouldn't effect anything that Ford is doing. Worse case scenario is Mazda pulls it product out of Flat Rock which could happen but I don't think that would help/hinder anything that goes on up there in Canada because I doubt the Mustang is moving.

 

Lastly, Plan on your plant closing, because it will most likely do just that.

People say: "but our quality is best....." "but our workforce is superior....." "but the local economy will......" and so on and so on...

They have already done the same things and said the same things at Atlanta, New Jersey, and Wixom and it didn't stop Ford from shuttering them.

not to call anyone out, but Ford does not own the site/property that AAI (mazda/mustang)is working out of!! They lease that building!

[Back-Glass-Ass]

not to call anyone out, but Ford does not own the site/property that AAI (mazda/mustang)is working out of!! They lease that building!

You are incorrect, As a matter of fact, Ford repurchased a 50% share of the plant in 1992 and Ford purchased the remainder of the site within the last year making it the sole owner of it, in fact it was announced in town hall meetings that they did this to every person who works there. (I was working there when they announced it)

 

 

I am sure anyone who works there now and was at the meeting can vouch for it, if not google can be your friend.

[charly]

The GM/Chrysler "footprints" were a condition of the Canadian Government's bailout plan. But Ford did not ask for anything from Government and Ford has no requirement to maintain anything in Canada. Frankly, they could probably care less if the CAW said no to concessions because they can certainly move production to the States (the UAW and Obama would love it)! So it should be obvious that Ford is in the driver's seat.....and the CAW has to come across or risk losing EVERYTHING, not just St. Thomas. On the other hand, Ford and the CAW have historically had a very good relationship - better than the relationships between the CAW and GM/Chrysler. So I think this is the time to suck it up and preserve jobs....whatever it takes. If anyone thinks the economy is due for a miracle cure anytime soon, they are sadly mistaken. I would not want to be job-hunting anytime in the forseeable future. A job with Ford - while not as good as a Government job - is pretty damn good at any wage scale.

 

 

 

At any wage scale? The economy is already picking up, lets stop being chicken little and grabbing our ankles every time some pundit says we are doomed.

Many great people have made sacrifices so that we can have what we now possess, and I for one will be f**ked if someone trys to take away that which is mine.

Giving up a FAIR share is one thing, to commit employment suicide is another.

 

 

As my Union used to say "FIGHTING BACK MAKES A DIFFERENCE"

 

Lets find out.

[Trimdingman]

If the economy comes roaring back, it will be accompanied by raging inflation. With our wages frozen, we will be left behind. By 2012, our wages will be just average or less. At that time, it will be easy to outsource the remaining jobs in return for a slight pay increase from our new company. Then Ford will be dealing with our new boss, who will then come down hard on us to keep the contract with Ford.

[Jaah]

NO PRODUCT? NO CONCESSIONS! VOTE NO!

 

Nothing has changed, we have a contract. I already gave at the office.

[GuyfromSTAP]

NO PRODUCT? NO CONCESSIONS! VOTE NO!

 

Nothing has changed, we have a contract. I already gave at the office.

 

I hear ya,I finally had to put trim on ignore list,my god he is annoying as a 4 year old asking the same question over and over.How people at OAC don't bother to swat the piss out of the guy is beyond me.Whew,cleansing breath,no more Trim...did the sun just come out?

[Edsel]

Morning All

 

I'm just throwing this out there, opinions. A couple of us were talking about this morning.

 

 

This is what may be happening. I don't think they plan on closing the plant but Ford is not ready to say we're getting a new car yet. I think they will try to get us to except concessions based on a lucrative close out aggreement which they never intend on using. Sept. 2011 will come around and low and behold they announce they have a new car for us, but only if we take concessions again. So that would be 3 contracts they get concessions. I don't know if I'm right but it makes sense.

 

 

You sound like 75% of the people at the Ontario Truck Plant in 2001.

 

Ed.

[Edsel]

I hear ya,I finally had to put trim on ignore list,my god he is annoying as a 4 year old asking the same question over and over.How people at OAC don't bother to swat the piss out of the guy is beyond me.Whew,cleansing breath,no more Trim...did the sun just come out?

 

We have to find him first!

 

Ed.

[xstapr]

Here's the deal, from the Windsor meeting with Ford.

 

STAP will close 2011.

Ford does not want any concessions from STAP.

STAP will close out 2011 with the same contract.

STAP will negotiate a closing package while OAC and Windsor will negotiate major concessions.

No amount of money offered by the Federal/Provincial governments will keep STAP open.

 

Here's my Take:

STAP wil close 2011

2007 STAP went to one shift with no demands for new product

2007 STAP went on overtime after losing 900+jobs.

2008 STAP went in to bargaining early "perfect storm" New product a must.

2008 STAP votes infavour of a one year extension on the plant life, still no demands for new product. Buzz was more concerned with two-tier wages. Majority of STAP employees voted for contract that had no new product in it. They followed Buzz like llittle sheep.

2009 New round of contract talks. Ken Lew. states in the media that concessions are inevitable but the one thing the CAW can demand is that the BIG 3 keep their same size footprint in canada.

When STAP closes Fords footprint will be 9% the lowest of all BIG 3 in Canada. This will give GM and Chry. a new low to shoot for.

So the CAW will be giving Ford concessions and losing Ford's footprint in Canada.

With STAP gone OAC and Windsor will be in a much weaker position. Hopefully the CAW will make a stand someday instead of waiting for Ford to throw it a bone.

 

In Solidarity,

 

 

Isn't that the way Ken and just about all union officials end their letters. "In Solidarity"

[GuyfromSTAP]

Xstapr...I agree totally on the top part of your post.It'll be interesting to see the closing agreement,I still fail to see how they are going to separate us from the rest of the Ford Caw workers but it'll be interesting.In Stap our agreement needs to be very very good,if not they have our sorry asses for a long time unless they close OAC and Windsor.Ford want to get rid of us at STAP young and old so it's their time to pay,if not sit on EI and wait your turn to tranfsfer.It's your right andf it'll happen sooner or later.Ford want new people making less money without our bennies,it'll cost them to get rid of us.I'm older but you young guys make them pay you or sit and wait,the money in severance isn't worth shit if you cn't collect EI till you eat it all up.Fuck em,collect EI now and stay with your recall rights,Ford that way isn't hiring no cheap labour in our country.

[iluvnascar]

Whenever they finally agree on the closure date and the severance package, I hope they negotiate the ability of terminated employees to defer unsheltered portions of their severance to the following calendar year in order to reduce the very punitive tax implications. With a closure late in the year, employees will already be in high tax brackets and any incremental payments will attract that high marginal rate. But if the payment can be deferred to January, the incremental payments will be taxed at much lower rates.

 

Why should Government benefit at the expense of employees when a closure takes place? Ask your MP (Joe Preston) and MPP (Steve Peters)....IF you can find them.