Toyata bracing itself for 31% drop in profits

[Pioneer]

We'd still have budget problems in school and local government operations even if people have jobs....they both need to be reigned in on spending foolishly.

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe, maybe not. But you can't argue with the fact that people need jobs to pay the taxes that keep everything around us from going to $hit.

[F250]

Maybe, maybe not. But you can't argue with the fact that people need jobs to pay the taxes that keep everything around us from going to $hit.

 

I simply cannot believe the short sighted people around here that do not care about American workers. This country is in serious economic trouble and the only way out is to get our people back to work.

 

Those that say the price of the vehicle will go out of control if it is made in the USA are either ignorant or lying to support their position. One more time: The price is determined by the market, outsourcing to third world slave wage countries simply increases profit margin for the company it does not reduce the price the customer is charged for the product! Do they really thnk a company executive that is willing to fire thousands of American workers and pay some foreign slave $2 an hour will out of the goodness of his heart pass the savings directly to the buyer? Don't be nieve. My 2006 F-150 had a 85% North American content (yes, includes Canada-5.4L engine) sticker on the window, if it is really at 55% today the sticker price of an '11 F-150 should be a hell of a lot lower than my truck was...but it isnt. I may be in the minority but I do check where the products I buy are made. I want my money going to an American company that employs Americn workers, I think it's important.

 

"If we can distribute high wages, then that money is going to be spent and it will serve to make storekeepers and distributors and manufacturers and workers in other lines more prosperous - and their prosperity will be reflected in our sales." Henry Ford 1922.

[akirby]

I simply cannot believe the short sighted people around here that do not care about American workers. This country is in serious economic trouble and the only way out is to get our people back to work.

 

Those that say the price of the vehicle will go out of control if it is made in the USA are either ignorant or lying to support their position. One more time: The price is determined by the market, outsourcing to third world slave wage countries simply increases profit margin for the company it does not reduce the price the customer is charged for the product! Do they really thnk a company executive that is willing to fire thousands of American workers and pay some foreign slave $2 an hour will out of the goodness of his heart pass the savings directly to the buyer? Don't be nieve. My 2006 F-150 had a 85% North American content (yes, includes Canada-5.4L engine) sticker on the window, if it is really at 55% today the sticker price of an '11 F-150 should be a hell of a lot lower than my truck was...but it isnt. I may be in the minority but I do check where the products I buy are made. I want my money going to an American company that employs Americn workers, I think it's important.

 

"If we can distribute high wages, then that money is going to be spent and it will serve to make storekeepers and distributors and manufacturers and workers in other lines more prosperous - and their prosperity will be reflected in our sales." Henry Ford 1922.

 

Most companies outsource work just to stay competitive, not to reap huge profits.

 

Ford can get away with U.S. production for the Focus because of the higher ATPs and global use of the C platform including multiple U.S. vehicles which keeps the plant busy and costs way down.

 

They can't do that with the Fiesta. The margins are too small and the costs are too high because the volume isn't the same.

 

American companies would much prefer to keep everything in the U.S. but too many consumers have the Wal-Mart mentality of "I want the absolute cheapest price period" so they won't pay extra for domestic products. It's the same as people who buy things from Ebay or mail order instead of supporting their local brick and mortar stores. Pretty soon the brick and mortar stores can't stay in business.

 

Here is an analogy I used previously. I'm buying domestic, locally grown apples for $5/bushel. My competitor down the street does the same. We can compete on even ground. Now my competitor decides to import apples from South America for $3/bushel so he undercuts my prices. What are my choices? Continue buying the $5/bushel apples that only a few people want to buy and go out of business? Or start importing them from South America and drop my prices to compete?

 

That's the reality of business and very few companies are reaping huge profits. Even big oil companies profits are very small as a percentage of their revenue compared to other industries. It's just that their revenue is so huge the profit is a big number.

 

Convince consumers to stop buying cheap crap and the businesses will respond.

[silentfury]

Convince consumers to stop buying cheap crap and the businesses will respond.

 

but that's the real trick of it all. lots of people only look at the price tag regardless of the quality they get for said price tag. that is why places like dollar stores, walmart, kmart, etc exist because they know people will pay for cheap crap.

[F250]

Most companies outsource work just to stay competitive, not to reap huge profits.

 

Ford can get away with U.S. production for the Focus because of the higher ATPs and global use of the C platform including multiple U.S. vehicles which keeps the plant busy and costs way down.

 

They can't do that with the Fiesta. The margins are too small and the costs are too high because the volume isn't the same.

 

American companies would much prefer to keep everything in the U.S. but too many consumers have the Wal-Mart mentality of "I want the absolute cheapest price period" so they won't pay extra for domestic products. It's the same as people who buy things from Ebay or mail order instead of supporting their local brick and mortar stores. Pretty soon the brick and mortar stores can't stay in business.

 

Here is an analogy I used previously. I'm buying domestic, locally grown apples for $5/bushel. My competitor down the street does the same. We can compete on even ground. Now my competitor decides to import apples from South America for $3/bushel so he undercuts my prices. What are my choices? Continue buying the $5/bushel apples that only a few people want to buy and go out of business? Or start importing them from South America and drop my prices to compete?

 

That's the reality of business and very few companies are reaping huge profits. Even big oil companies profits are very small as a percentage of their revenue compared to other industries. It's just that their revenue is so huge the profit is a big number.

 

Convince consumers to stop buying cheap crap and the businesses will respond.

 

You are telling half the story!

 

Here, let me complete it for you.

 

Your competitor undercuts your price until you either

A. Go out of business and then he will increase his foreign apple price back to $8 and rape the customer pocketing all of that extra profit.

B. You buy foreign and match his price...after which you both realize you can go back to charging $8 because that is the market price.

 

Either way your local grower goes bankrupt but is too small to qualify for a government bailout so he is financially destroyed. So the money he used to earn making an honest living is not in the economy ...he cannot buy products like he used to...like the other products that your store used to sell him!

Now go ahead and do that with the rest of your suppliers, better open a store in South America.

Edited June 21, 2011 by F250

[akirby]

Your competitor undercuts your price until you either

A. Go out of business and then he will increase his foreign apple price back to $8 and rape the customer pocketing all of that extra profit.

B. You buy foreign and match his price...after which you both realize you can go back to charging $8 because that is the market price.

 

Nice theory but it hardly ever happens. Why? Because there is always somebody ready to open a new stand, especially if they think the current prices are too high and they can charge a lot less and make money. This is called competition. As long as there isn't a monopoly on the products it works.

[akirby]

Either way your local grower goes bankrupt but is too small to qualify for a government bailout so he is financially destroyed. So the money he used to earn making an honest living is not in the economy ...he cannot buy products like he used to...like the other products that your store used to sell him!

Now go ahead and do that with the rest of your suppliers, better open a store in South America.

 

And whose fault is that? If the local customers were willing to pay more for locally grown products then there wouldn't be an issue. But most aren't. All they see is the price and the short term impact to their wallet.

 

I go through a lot of tennis strings - probably $300/yr. I could buy a stringer and do it myself for less than $100/yr and the stringer would pay for itself in 2 years. It would be far cheaper and more convenient than taking them to the local tennis store 4-6 times per year. But my local store offers demo programs, free advice, discounted clothing and shoes and other stuff. The manager will do me a favor if I'm in a pinch and they're good people. So I let them string my racquets to support them and help keep them in business. I also buy racquets, shoes and clothing there even though I could get them online and save a few bucks.

 

If more people were willing to pay a little extra to support local and domestic businesses this wouldn't be an issue. Until that happens there isn't a lot that businesses can do about it. They do what they have to do in order to survive.

[F250]

Nice theory but it hardly ever happens. Why? Because there is always somebody ready to open a new stand, especially if they think the current prices are too high and they can charge a lot less and make money. This is called competition. As long as there isn't a monopoly on the products it works.

 

Its called competition! With who? Do you expect your local American supplier, your neighbor to work for the same wages as someone in a foreign country that is willing to work for $2 an hour. Would you? Could you live in this country on that kind of money? Hell no. And that is why laws need to be passed to stop the damage from the near unregulated trade in this country.

 

So if outsourcing reduces the price of the product to the customer, if the company isn't just pocketing the profit from not paying a living wage to an American worker why hasn't the price of a new F-150 gone down 20-30% ?

 

Yea, theory.

[NickF1011]

Convince consumers to stop buying cheap crap and the businesses will respond.

 

The problem there is that it's pretty hard to convince people that the imported good is crap when it really isn't. Is the F-150 now a worse vehicle than it was 10 years ago because it contains more imported content?

[akirby]

Its called competition! With who? Do you expect your local American supplier, your neighbor to work for the same wages as someone in a foreign country that is willing to work for $2 an hour. Would you? Could you live in this country on that kind of money? Hell no. And that is why laws need to be passed to stop the damage from the near unregulated trade in this country.

 

Competition from another person who opens a fruit stand. If the only choice for local consumers is $8/bushel apples then that's an opportunity for someone else to open a stand selling the same apples for $5. That will force the others to follow suit.

 

So if outsourcing reduces the price of the product to the customer, if the company isn't just pocketing the profit from not paying a living wage to an American worker why hasn't the price of a new F-150 gone down 20-30% ?

 

Outsourcing is typically done to keep prices from being raised, not to reduce current prices. Or it's done to lower prices to gain a competitive advantage. In neither case does it generate bigger profits that go into the pockets of the corporation. I realize some people think that way but they've never been involved in that scenario and are simply ignorant of how things work in the real world.

[akirby]

The problem there is that it's pretty hard to convince people that the imported good is crap when it really isn't. Is the F-150 now a worse vehicle than it was 10 years ago because it contains more imported content?

 

I didn't mean to imply all imported stuff is cheap or crap - poor wording. What I meant was convince people to buy domestic goods rather than imported goods of equal quality even if the price is a little higher. And I wasn't really referring to vehicles - I was referring to stuff you buy at Wal-Mart, etc.

[NickF1011]

I didn't mean to imply all imported stuff is cheap or crap - poor wording. What I meant was convince people to buy domestic goods rather than imported goods of equal quality even if the price is a little higher. And I wasn't really referring to vehicles - I was referring to stuff you buy at Wal-Mart, etc.

 

Good luck with that then. It runs counter to logic. Same quality, higher price? No thanks.

[akirby]

Good luck with that then. It runs counter to logic. Same quality, higher price? No thanks.

 

You wouldn't spend a little extra to support your local stores (and therefore support your neighbors and friends)?

 

I don't mean spending double, but are you saying you'd rather buy a Cobra part over the internet for $100 instead of buying it locally for $110?

Would you feel different if the local store was owned by a family member or neighbor?

[NickF1011]

You wouldn't spend a little extra to support your local stores (and therefore support your neighbors and friends)?

 

I don't mean spending double, but are you saying you'd rather buy a Cobra part over the internet for $100 instead of buying it locally for $110?

Would you feel different if the local store was owned by a family member or neighbor?

 

I'd tell my friend or family member they are charging too much.

[akirby]

I also gave a real world example where I pay more for tennis supplies in order to support my local store and keep them in business. It's to my benefit to have a local store where I can test racquets and get things quickly and get free advice. That is worth paying a few dollars more for me. That's what I'm talking about.

[NickF1011]

I also gave a real world example where I pay more for tennis supplies in order to support my local store and keep them in business. It's to my benefit to have a local store where I can test racquets and get things quickly and get free advice. That is worth paying a few dollars more for me. That's what I'm talking about.

 

In that instance you are paying for more than just the tennis supplies though.

[akirby]

In that instance you are paying for more than just the tennis supplies though.

 

Exactly! If you don't support the local businesses wherever possible then they won't be around when you need them. That's the point. Now expand that to purchasing domestic goods instead of cheaper foreign goods and it's the same reasoning.

 

If bottom line price is the only decision criteria then we're screwed.

[NickF1011]

Exactly! If you don't support the local businesses wherever possible then they won't be around when you need them. That's the point. Now expand that to purchasing domestic goods instead of cheaper foreign goods and it's the same reasoning.

 

If bottom line price is the only decision criteria then we're screwed.

 

When I'm buying socks I don't care about having local support for them. When it comes to buying most goods, I could care less about having local support for it. Best Buy supports my television just as well or better than the little local TV shop guy down the road would anyway and I can find a Best Buy anywhere I move. A warranty from a local shop doesn't mean anything if it is entirely inconvenient to go there. Big businesses are convenient for more than just their prices in a lot of cases.

Edited June 21, 2011 by NickF1011

[akirby]

When I'm buying socks I don't care about having local support for them. When it comes to buying most goods, I could care less about having local support for it. Best Buy supports my television just as well or better than the little local TV shop guy down the road would anyway and I can find a Best Buy anywhere I move. A warranty from a local shop doesn't mean anything if it is entirely inconvenient to go there. Big businesses are convenient for more than just their prices in a lot of cases.

 

What if your family worked for the local TV shop. Or your neighbor. Would you care?

[NickF1011]

What if your family worked for the local TV shop. Or your neighbor. Would you care?

 

If it meant they were going to overcharge me for the same services and products I could get at Best Buy? No. Serves them right, far as I'm concerned. Get with the times or get out of the way. :shrug:

Edited June 21, 2011 by NickF1011

[akirby]

If it meant they were going to overcharge me for the same services and products I could get at Best Buy? No. Serves them right, far as I'm concerned. Get with the times or get out of the way. :shrug:

 

There is no way a local store can match Best Buy pricing on everything - it's not possible due to volume purchasing, loss leaders, etc. Same for Wal-Mart although with the pressure they put on suppliers I'm not sure anybody can match their cost structure.

 

With a local store you get better service and you support your neighbors. But I guess you don't care about that.

 

Let's say you own a local shop and your business is good. But the other businesses around you start closing due to big box stores. The city loses income so your taxes go up. The people who own those local businesses no longer have income and can't shop at your store any more so your revenue goes down.

 

All that just to save a few pennies on a roll of toilet paper.

 

That's the problem - people don't see the long term effects - only the short term effect on their wallet.

[NickF1011]

There is no way a local store can match Best Buy pricing on everything - it's not possible due to volume purchasing, loss leaders, etc. Same for Wal-Mart although with the pressure they put on suppliers I'm not sure anybody can match their cost structure.

 

With a local store you get better service and you support your neighbors. But I guess you don't care about that.

 

Let's say you own a local shop and your business is good. But the other businesses around you start closing due to big box stores. The city loses income so your taxes go up. The people who own those local businesses no longer have income and can't shop at your store any more so your revenue goes down.

 

All that just to save a few pennies on a roll of toilet paper.

 

That's the problem - people don't see the long term effects - only the short term effect on their wallet.

 

If a local business wants me to shop there they have to go above and beyond to offer something unique to get me in the door. Just promising better service isn't gonna do it, because frankly, the "support" offered by local businesses isn't always that great. Sometimes it is simply awful. And again, what if I buy something there and then move? Where's that wonderful support now? I'm on my own with a product I probably paid too much for.

 

I support local businesses when they offer something the others cannot. For example, I hit up lots of local eateries. Why? They offer dining choices that most of the chains can't match. I've used several local mechanics to get work done on my Cobra. Why? Because they offer specialized services and have skills that most chain shops do not. I will shop locally when it makes sense to me.

 

And then there's the gray area of franchises that are part of a corporate structure but may very well be locally owned. How do you feel about those?

Edited June 21, 2011 by NickF1011

[akirby]

If a local business wants me to shop there they have to go above and beyond to offer something unique to get me in the door. Just promising better service isn't gonna do it, because frankly, the "support" offered by local businesses isn't always that great. Sometimes it is simply awful. And again, what if I buy something there and then move? Where's that wonderful support now? I'm on my own with a product I probably paid too much for.

 

I support local businesses when they offer something the others cannot. For example, I hit up lots of local eateries. Why? They offer dining choices that most of the chains can't match. I've used several local mechanics to get work done on my Cobra. Why? Because they offer specialized services and have skills that most chain shops do not. I will shop locally when it makes sense to me.

 

And then there's the gray area of franchises that are part of a corporate structure but may very well be locally owned. How do you feel about those?

 

I'm saying we should support local businesses wherever possible even if it costs a little more because it indirectly benefits you and everyone else in your city or county. Even corporate franchises employ locals. I'm not suggesting you should pay double or you should support any business with bad service.

 

And I'm saying we should extend that to buying domestic goods over imported goods wherever possible under the same principles.

 

Here's a simpler example - you're buying a shirt in a department store and there are 2 virtually identical shirts. One is made in china for $30 and another one is made in the U.S. for $35. Which one do you buy?

[NickF1011]

I'm saying we should support local businesses wherever possible

 

And I'm saying it's not realistically plausible in a lot of cases.

 

Here's a simpler example - you're buying a shirt in a department store and there are 2 virtually identical shirts. One is made in china for $30 and another one is made in the U.S. for $35. Which one do you buy?

 

Give me any instance where that comparison would ever present itself in the real world. It wouldn't. And why must you use China as the example of the importer? Why not make it a comparison between a pair of U.S. and Italian designer dress shoes? Or perhaps wine? Do you only drink local wines even though several great wines are imported from around the world?

Edited June 21, 2011 by NickF1011

[akirby]

Give me any instance where that comparison would ever present itself in the real world. It wouldn't.

 

Locally grown vegetables from the Farmer's Market at $5 per lb versus the same quality vegetables at the local grocery store imported from South America at $4.50 per lb. Do you support the local farmers or do you save $0.50 per lb?

 

Do you buy a new wireless router from Best Buy where they employ locals and pay local taxes or do you order it from NewEgg.com where it's $10 cheaper?

 

Do you buy a new vehicle from your local dealer or do you buy from an out of state dealer in order to save $100?

 

My entire point is you should consider the benefits and side effects of your purchasing decisions and not just base it ONLY on price.

 

It's like telling people not to overfish an area but they don't listen. They catch too many fish and pretty soon there are no more fish to be caught. People don't see or understand or care about the consequences until it's too late. It's all ME ME ME and NOW NOW NOW.