F250 Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 (edited) Why are Prius owners geeks? Because they wanted a vehicle that promised significantly greater efficiency than anything else available? Even if the mileage estimates failed to meet expectations it does not invalidate the buyers motivation. They could have all that and more room, options (like a sunroof which you cannot get in a Prius) and a more "normal car" if they bought the Camry hybrid but no, it's not enough to drive a hybrid it's about announcing to everyone that you drive a hybrid. You mock the Prius owner because they wear rose colored glasses and refuse to admit that their car has problems. How many Ford owners on this forum do the same thing? If enough buyers love their car enough to overlook the problems and remain loyal, slam dunk for the manufacturer. If Ford generated the same kind of loyalty that the imports do, I doubt you would have a problem with it. Actually I think Ford has higher owner loyalty stats than Toyota In any case, the Prius is a pretty efficient car. Instead of 65 mpg they are getting 45. That's a problem I would love to have. I dislike the Prius personally and would never own one. That doesn't mean that someone else won't be perfectly satisfied with theirs. I would also refuse to own a Harley Davidson edition Ford pickup. Still doesn't stop others from lusting after it. No problem, but in the parking lot the Prius owner still calls the truck owner a "redneck" and the truck owner calls the Prius guy a "geek" As far as dealer only service, who cares? Plenty of people buy normal cars with zero special technology and only go to the dealer for service. Why would the buyer car if they must go to the dealer for service if they planned to go there from the beginning? Big difference here. As you know when the dealer has no competition it's easy to charge any price they want. Example: Parts, price an oil or air filter from the dealer and it's usually reasonable because of aftermarket competition, but price a part than can only be obtained from the dealer and the price gets outrageous. Why do you think manufacturers offer a 100,000 mile waranty on the hybrid system? Because buyers know the system requires specialized training to diagnose (at $100 per hour) and the parts are very expensive. So to close the sale and eliminate that concern they provide the 100k mile warranty...but you would be wise to get rid of the thing at 99,000 miles. It has been stated plenty before, but why not say it again. The quality gap between domestic and import cars has narrowed to the point that it is often undistinguishable. Perception has not. You will noot change the import buyers mind by telling him he is stupid and pointing at his Camry calling it a piece of crap. Even if you are right (you're not) he is happy with his import. The only way for Ford and GM to win this war is to make BETTER cars than the imports. The dealer network also requires improvement. Speaking of dealers did you miss the part of the article that said Toyota dealers are making up "outlandish explanations" it explain why the Prius doesn't come close to it's estimated mileage. See, when you want to beat a competitor, you don't point at them and say, "You suck as bad as we do!" You study their strengths and weaknesses as well as your own. You address any deficiencies in your own organization and leverage your strengths to create differentiation. If you do this right, the consumer will seek you out and even pay a premium for your product. And getting the government to lie about the gas mileage of your cars helps too. It's that simple. Edited January 8, 2007 by F250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebritt Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Good post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser Soze Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 They could have all that and more room, options (like a sunroof which you cannot get in a Prius) and a more "normal car" if they bought the Camry hybrid but no, it's not enough to drive a hybrid it's about announcing to everyone that you drive a hybrid. The '07 Camry hybrid did not go on sale until May of '06. Since no one knew for sure if the Camry would be a fuel sipper or use the technology for increased performance like the Accord, you can understand why some people probably were not willing to wait. Plus, look at the flawed EPA ratings. If you shop by what's on the sticker (and many do) the Camry is not in the same league as the Prius. Actually I think Ford has higher owner loyalty stats than Toyota This would be nice, but it is not true. 2006 owner loyalty rankings from JD Power are as follows: 2006 top 10 manufacturers in retaining customers as reported by J.D. Powers: Toyota -- 63.9% Lexus -- 63.2% Honda -- 60.3% BMW -- 56.5% Scion -- 56.3% Cadillac -- 55.5% Chevrolet -- 55.3% Mercedes-Benz -- 53.6% Ford -- 53.3% Hyundai -- 51.6% You also have to consider that at least SOME of the F150 buyers would buy a Toyota if they offered a truly competitive product. Even if this is only 5%, every sale is a win for Toyota and a loss for Ford. This would skew the ratings further. Ford should not ignore the threat in trucks they wayb this did in cars. Today many truck owners would be a little embarrased to be seen in a Toyota or Nissan. This can easily change over time if the imports continue to improve their vehicles. It happened with cars in the '70s and '80's. No problem, but in the parking lot the Prius owner still calls the truck owner a "redneck" and the truck owner calls the Prius guy a "geek" That may be. I don't frequent Toyota boards so I can't comment. Big difference here. As you know when the dealer has no competition it's easy to charge any price they want. Example: Parts, price an oil or air filter from the dealer and it's usually reasonable because of aftermarket competition, but price a part than can only be obtained from the dealer and the price gets outrageous. Why do you think manufacturers offer a 100,000 mile waranty on the hybrid system? Because buyers know the system requires specialized training to diagnose (at $100 per hour) and the parts are very expensive. So to close the sale and eliminate that concern they provide the 100k mile warranty...but you would be wise to get rid of the thing at 99,000 miles. When the blend door went out in my old Explorer, no independent garage wojuld touch it. The dealer quoted over a grand to remove the dashboard and replace the entire duct. I fixed it myself by going through the firewall, but I had to buy the entire duct (dealer only) just to get the little blend door. My point is that there will always be some things that are dealer only. For the average Prius buyer, I doubt that matters anyway. They buy the car because of a burning desire to own it. I know a lot of people who take their cars to the dealer for everything and pay whatever the bill is without question. If one of these people buys the Prius, there will be no difference. No doubt many components like the brakes, gas engine, etc. can be serviced by any competent mechanic. It might be good advice to dump the car before the warranty ends, but that could be said about many cars including any VW. Doesn't stop people from buying them. Speaking of dealers did you miss the part of the article that said Toyota dealers are making up "outlandish explanations" it explain why the Prius doesn't come close to it's estimated mileage. How does this fall on the buyer? Dealers can be scumbags, I agree with that and Ford seems to have more than its share. My parents bought a fully loaded '92 Aerostar (ugh!) and had problems with the electronic 4 wheel drive. They were told by the dealer that it was their fault for not , "putting it in 4 wheel drive more often." When my dad asked the service manager how to do this since the system is electronic and can only be engaged by the computer he walked away muttering something about checking the owners manual. Keep in mind that it is impossible to manually place this vehicle in 4 wheel drive. I don't think this is a reflection on my parents. I was not defending the dealers or even Toyota in my original post. the point is that some people want these cars. If Ford has decided that this is not a good market for them and only wants to push the Escape, fine with me. Insinuating that the customers are somehow defective for wanting a highly efficient car is foolish. The buyer wants what the buyer wants. And getting the government to lie about the gas mileage of your cars helps too. Are you suggesting that a US government agency is on the take to Toyota but not to Ford and GM? How exactly did Toyota get the govenment to go along with their nefarious plan? Considering that I have never consistently acheived EPA mileage on ANY vehicle I have driven, the more likely explanation is that the entire EPA MPG rating system is flawed. We can only hope that the proposed testing changes will go far enough to give the buyer a realistic estimate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebritt Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Ever see the South Park episode where everybody bought a hybrid? I think there may be a fart sniffer here.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jd87 Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Ever see the South Park episode where everybody bought a hybrid? I think there may be a fart sniffer here.... hahaha yes. I'd rather have SMOG than SMUG any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewq4b Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 (edited) Isn't the EPA going to be downgrading the mpg of every vehicle for 2008? I don't think the Prius does any worse percentage-wise than any other car when comparing real-world vs. EPA mileage, considering most owners state they get high-40's combined. Can you name another carof similar size out there getting that sort of mileage? How about a larger car that gets that 318d ES (a wagon) 48.7 MPG combined Matthew Edited January 10, 2007 by matthewq4b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swenson88 Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 How about a larger car that gets that 318d ES (a wagon) 48.7 MPG combined Matthew And where in the U.S. can I buy said car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser Soze Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 (edited) How about a larger car that gets that 318d ES (a wagon) 48.7 MPG combined Matthew How do you figure that this is a realistic alternative for a Prius buyer? BMW: Diesel fuel at national average of $2.60/gallon as of 12/26/06 List price $24,000 GBP ($46,000 USD) Not sold in the US Toyota: Gasoline at national average of $ 2.34/gallon as of 12/26/06 List price $23,000 USD Available now in all 50 states Sorry, these two cars are completely different worlds. Edited January 11, 2007 by Keyser Soze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordPaul Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Last night on N.B.C television, 1/11/07, saw an ad for a Prius advertising 60 m.p.g. So, when do they have to tell the truth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebritt Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Last night on N.B.C television, 1/11/07, saw an ad for a Prius advertising 60 m.p.g. So, when do they have to tell the truth?When a judge orders them to..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc-o Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Ever see the South Park episode where everybody bought a hybrid? I think there may be a fart sniffer here.... Of course the moral of the episode was that people SHOULD in fact buy cars like hybrids, just not do it to attain some sense of superiority, but because it's a good thing to do for the environment (I'm not getting into that debate, it's been done to the death). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc-o Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Last night on N.B.C television, 1/11/07, saw an ad for a Prius advertising 60 m.p.g. So, when do they have to tell the truth? I could be wrong, but doesn't the government specify that only it's own (EPA) rating can be used in advertising fuel economy? Assuming that's the case, it's not surprising Toyota takes advantage of it (hell almost everyone else does too, especially GM). Because the way a Prius runs they beat the EPA mileage testing system, but that's one that has been considered grossly innacurate for decades, it's just never been this much of a problem before. Of course no one bitched about it so much until now :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken F. Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) I don't think actual MPG matter anyway. Prius has never been about mpg. Just about every automotive publication that tested it has stated the milage was unrealistic. As long as there are needy & self absorbed people out there, Prius will sell extremely well no matter what the EPA says. I can promise you this. There will be no shortage of needy and self absorbed people. Ford needs to get with the program and offer a hybrid version of the Focus. Not doing so is a missed opportunity. If the designers of the Escape hybrid did not consider the need to package the drive system in a small car down the line, they should be kicked in the nuts. Repeatedly. They also need a diesel offering. VW's will be back in '08, Honda's will be out in '09. Edited January 19, 2007 by Ken F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken F. Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 Isn't the EPA going to be downgrading the mpg of every vehicle for 2008? I don't think the Prius does any worse percentage-wise than any other car when comparing real-world vs. EPA mileage, considering most owners state they get high-40's combined. Can you name another carof similar size out there getting that sort of mileage? A co-worker has a VW Golf diesel. I think it's an '04. Not sure what it was rated by the EPA, but round trip from Detroit to Chicago we got 42MPG driving 80+MPH everywhere we could. I don't think a Prius would have done much better if it were traveling at those speeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 A co-worker has a VW Golf diesel. I think it's an '04. Not sure what it was rated by the EPA, but round trip from Detroit to Chicago we got 42MPG driving 80+MPH everywhere we could. I don't think a Prius would have done much better if it were traveling at those speeds. In fact, the Prius would have done far worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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