suv_guy_19 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Nice of you to call Bill Ford an executive. He surely did well for the company. Yes, mistakes were made. The point is that now most of them are being fixed. The problem is that most people are only beginning to see it and others are refusing to see it. Also, it wasn't Bill Ford but rather Jack Nasser that caused the current problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topgun Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Yes, mistakes were made. The point is that now most of them are being fixed. The problem is that most people are only beginning to see it and others are refusing to see it. Also, it wasn't Bill Ford but rather Jack Nasser that caused the current problems. I still think you can lay a lot of the blame on Bill Ford on not knowing anything on running a car company. to see the problems that lie within the company when he took over and do nothing and then just cop out by hiring people to do the job he was supposed to do in the first place. I think you call this in over your head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolarBear Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Yay, more panther nonsense. I can honestly say, without reservation, that I am ashamed to be a Ford fan because they still make the panther cars. There, I said it. I cannot understand why so many people on this message board are infatuated with such antiquated, uninspiring and down-right embarrassing vehicles. Sure they run for hundreds of thousands of miles, they're cheaper by the dozen and they're tooling was paid for during Regan's first term, but come on! They should've been put out to pasture YEARS ago. As I see it, the panthers have numerous downsides. Let me state my case. * Fit and finish - Absolutely abhorred. There isn't a vehicle on the market today that has worse fit and finish than the CV/GM. Ragged mold part lines, canyon-like panel gaps, crooked light fixtures, pop-bottle plastic interiors, etc are the hallmarks of these cars. Thank God the elderly clientele that buy these vehicles can't see too well, they miss all the glaring quality flaws. * Ergonomics - Shameful. That's all I've got to say. Could be better- but could be a lot worse. At least you can figure out the buttons and knobs without studying the owners manual for hours. * BOF - Yes, they're rugged and easy to fix, but even the best frames flex more than a comparable unit-bodies. That must be (part of the reason) why panther handling is ocean liner torpid, and the ride necessitates Dramamine. Holy crap, have I been driving someone else's car for the last 200,000 miles or so? I used to own some of the big boats- the Panther isn't one of them. It's not a sports car, but it goes about it's business without drama. * Live Axle - They're rugged, cheap and great under the F-150 and new Mustang, but their inherent side-to-side shimmying (in the panthers) is unacceptable. Who wants to drive the automotive equivalent of Michael J. Fox? If it's rugged, reliable, and durable, why change it? Again, for the roads I travel on, it's anything but uncomfortable. * Appearance - I'm sure it's wonderful piloting a vehicle that sports Soviet-inspired communist-block styling. From the upright greenhouse to the massive overhangs to the slippery slab sides, the CV/GM have a confident stance and a road presence that's second to none. Socialism never looked so good! With panthers, you never know when Brezhnev might slide out of the back seat of a chauffer-driven CV/GM. Grant you a point there- interior and exterior styling needs to be freshened. We're looking at our third GM in 10 years, and I can barely see any difference from our original '98. I actually don't think the car is unattractive, just dated. Then again, when I look at what happened to the Town car after it got updated, maybe we're better off in a holding pattern. * 2-valves, 4-speeds - Hurray for Ford. They've managed to do nothing significant to panther power trains since the introduction of modular power for the 1992 model year. Perhaps it's okay to have your 4.6-liter V8 out-powered by countless V6s that displace a liter or more less! Yes, I know, "It's all about torque, and the area under the curve!" I'm sorry, torque or not, asthmatic, 2-valve, 4.6s just don't cut it anymore (and they're just as shameful in the E-series). More power was needed. More gears were needed. But now, those are non sequiturs. Ford, KILL THE PANTHERS! You're absolutely right- give me my 302 back. Better yet, just put a Gen Mot LS block under the hood and call it good, since they can out-power any naturally aspirated mod motor out there. When the blown Corvette surfaces next year, it'll be a clean sweep. That being said, the 4.6 delivers enough power for the type of car that it is, and offers up exceptional fuel economy at the same time. The big question is, what will Ford do to counter the new RWD Pontiac G8 and RWD Impala coming 'round the bend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlgiv Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 Oh they are cash cows Even at fleet pricing. They are priced the same as the much newer Charger in PI and fleet trim. The CV GM cost almost nothing to build compared to many of Fords other Vehicles. If I remember right current production will just about halve before they hit the break even point. With the addition of the TC to the Stap Plant it is only going to increase margins on all 3 Panthers. The Panthers are still accounting for almost a billion dollars a year in profits. This is why Ford has been so reluctant to kill them. It is also the reason they have been reluctant to stuff a hundred's of millions in to them to up date them, as there is no real guarantee that it will increase sales any sizable amount. They are a paradox at best. Too profitable to cut, updating them (they will need ground up redo's now and a massive advertising campaign) will cut profits hugely with no guarantee of recovering the money with increased sales. So they sit in limbo. The Panthers have been ignored now for the longest period in there lives there have been No significant upgrades at all for several years now. Prior to this every few years they received some sort of significant upgrade. It is possible that the plaform has hit it's zenith and any other improvements may require massive surgury. The only improvemnt left that I think could be done on the cheap is the 3V 4.6 and the 3 Link axel. But then again would the investment spent doing this show enough of a return with increased sales with out massive body work as well ?. I seriously doubt it could and all it would most likley do is cut profit margins. Chevy bowed out of the Traditional RWD market expecting a shift to FWD with the traditional buyers of the RWD sedan. It never happened and GMC has payed the price since and has stated that leaving the RWD sedan market was mistake. It was this goof up that allowed Ford to steal the market in RWD sedans and the Luxury market in the late 90's. There is a 100K a year of Fleet sales for these cars and that has remained pretty constant at that figure now for a few years now . For cars that cost little to build have some of the highest reliability and owner loyalty ratings in the industry and pretty much have guaranteed sales figures with no advertising & basically no R&D costs for years now. Ford is pretty much bound to making them for a while yet. When they are cut (3 to 5 years from now) they will most likely still be turning a profit. The Panthers will probably end life as one of the few Ford Platforms that was profitable it's whole production life. 28 years now and counting. It blows me away that platform designed in the mid & late 70's can still be even remotley viable in todays day and age. Matthew MY first CV was an '85. It has some issues but ran like a champ until it finally died. It was replaced with a '94 which still looks showroom new to this day (Just got a compliment last week during it's bi-annual NJ Motor Vehicle inspection). I back in 2006 I picked up a new one - you can't imagine the hassle trying to find a dealer that actually had one. I am going to pick up a 3rd one but my only option now is an ex-rental. The CV is definitely not for everyone. But I've found it is one of the cheapest cars (overall) to own and operate. I got 30.2mpg on the 2006 driving to Florida on that interminable stretch thought the Carolinas. Insurance is under $1000 for both cars with FULL coverage from NJ Manufacturers Insurance Co. Economical in some ways and immensly comfortable. As for reliability? My '94 has been in the shop once - to replace a stripped out bolt on the rear wheel hub. Talk about bullet-proof... How stupid are the folks running Ford? Matthew is so spot on in his post. Ford has made a ton of money on this platform, yet treats it like a bastard at a family reunion. Why not offer it to consumers again as a special order at a REASONABLE price. Instead of $30K plus - why not a decently optioned version in the low $20s like in the Persian Gulf? What if they sold a measly 5000 of them. It would be with no engineering or marketing needed. Pure profit. And you can be sure it would NOT be cannibalizing other models. Am I pissed with the folks at Ford? Absolutely. They intruduce head-scratchers like the Freestyle/Taurus X after a decade of obsession with trucks. Rather than LEARNING from thier mistakes - they then jump headlong into the Crossover pool. Why not offer a full range of vehicles from Fiesta to Crown Victoria to consumers? And when I say CV - I mean the low $20s version of the car - not the tarted-out, over priced GM. Having a balanced portfolio would allow them to quickly adjust to consumer tastes and yet still have product for ALL consumers. Sadly after 3 decades of fiercly loyal Ford ownership - it looks more and more like there will be a GM in my future with the way things are going... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryll40 Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 (edited) Chevy bowed out of the Traditional RWD market expecting a shift to FWD with the traditional buyers of the RWD sedan. It never happened and GMC has payed the price since and has stated that leaving the RWD sedan market was mistake. It was this goof up that allowed Ford to steal the market in RWD sedans and the Luxury market in the late 90's. Matthew I've been saying all along that the model year 1985 switchover for GM from RWD to FWD for their big cars was the inflection point leading to their current near demise. Those '85 FWD Deville/ParkAves/98/Bonnevilles were bad from the get-go. And even if quality had been better, people still wanted their "real" cars. Ironically, the 1977 downsizing was exactly right and THOSE vehicles (1977-1984) were well received and sold in record numbers. True, Caprice and Brougham lived on as RWD but GM chased away A LOT of customers when they made their "big" cars small. And gas prices had dropped by 1984 under Reagan's deregulation so no one cared that the new FWD cars got 2-3MPGs better. And it was that very move that revved up panther sales. People who NEVER would drive anything but a big Buick or Olds 98 felt abandoned and came over. And many of the 1977-84 model year big GM cars are still on the road, just like Panthers of that era. They (BOTH the GM and FORD) were great products...still plenty big...without the excessive bloat (and 9MPG city) that existed before 1977 for GM and 1979 for Ford. Edited September 7, 2008 by Daryll40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadamaster Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 (edited) MY first CV was an '85. It has some issues but ran like a champ until it finally died. It was replaced with a '94 which still looks showroom new to this day (Just got a compliment last week during it's bi-annual NJ Motor Vehicle inspection). I back in 2006 I picked up a new one - you can't imagine the hassle trying to find a dealer that actually had one. I am going to pick up a 3rd one but my only option now is an ex-rental. LIES![/sarcasm] The BON :cheerleader: s are going to love that one! The CV is definitely not for everyone. But I've found it is one of the cheapest cars (overall) to own and operate. I got 30.2mpg on the 2006 driving to Florida on that interminable stretch thought the Carolinas. Insurance is under $1000 for both cars with FULL coverage from NJ Manufacturers Insurance Co. Economical in some ways and immensly comfortable. As for reliability? My '94 has been in the shop once - to replace a stripped out bolt on the rear wheel hub. Talk about bullet-proof... More LIES! Only Five Hundreads/Taurus' can achieve that kinda mileage, right :cheerleader: s!? Tell this man the error of his ways! How stupid are the folks running Ford? Matthew is so spot on in his post. Ford has made a ton of money on this platform, yet treats it like a bastard at a family reunion. Why not offer it to consumers again as a special order at a REASONABLE price. Instead of $30K plus - why not a decently optioned version in the low $20s like in the Persian Gulf? What if they sold a measly 5000 of them. It would be with no engineering or marketing needed. Pure profit. And you can be sure it would NOT be cannibalizing other models. I don't understand why they can't overhaul and FILL the Panthers up right outta the rest of the Ford parts bin, between the pickup drivetrains and new sedans' interior appointments/options, keeping with the same platform, R&D costs would be negligable. But that's what common sense will get ya. Am I pissed with the folks at Ford? Absolutely. They intruduce head-scratchers like the Freestyle/Taurus X after a decade of obsession with trucks. Rather than LEARNING from thier mistakes - they then jump headlong into the Crossover pool. Why not offer a full range of vehicles from Fiesta to Crown Victoria to consumers? And when I say CV - I mean the low $20s version of the car - not the tarted-out, over priced GM. Having a balanced portfolio would allow them to quickly adjust to consumer tastes and yet still have product for ALL consumers. Sadly after 3 decades of fiercly loyal Ford ownership - it looks more and more like there will be a GM in my future with the way things are going... Well said! GMQs are silly cheap right now, don't be shy pricing one the next time around. Edited September 9, 2008 by Armada Master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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