Grey Goose

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/...r-is-carjacked/

Because the market dictates that they do so. Ford or any automaker cannot afford to cede those markets and their advantages and potential sales volumes to all the other Auto Companies. It would be economic suicide. Believe me, I am WIDE AWAKE. I suggest you start thinking with your head and not your emotions after you open your own eyes. This is not your fathers world any longer. As Thomas Friedman wrote....." The world is flat" All we can do is deal with it.

Look I hate to admit it, it sucks to be an American blue collar worker no doubt......but I have to agree with Walter here. He said it all pretty well. Plain and simple we , the union are simply NOT in the drivers seat at this time and indeed may never be again. Yes Ford is doing well right now, however, it has HUGE debt obligations coming in the future that because of bankruptcy GM and Chrysler simply do not have to worry about. Their debt for the most part was abolished via the courts. So the fact is that Ford is already at a competitve disadvantage because of their debt, and that debt has to be repaid somehow. We can scream about Upper Managements salaries, Mullally, Fields and the rest but I think we all agree that SOMEONE up there in Dearborn had to have SOMETHING to do with that success, and that comes with a price. Love him or hate him Mullally has Ford on the upswing and that skill costs money. Remember how Ford drfited along with no vision or leadership when we had those two guys who came after Nasser. They were so obscure I can't even remember their names right now. The no strike thing is a red herring period. No way the UAW strikes Ford no way. If the abitrator allows GM or Chrysler to lower wages or drop health care or pensions, a very real possibility by the way,then can any of you imagine the union calling a strike against Ford over the same issue? At that point how could Ford compete with either of its rivals, when they have such an advantage. It sucks I know. I hate it. But, it is what it is. Our fate is now tied to an arbitrator anyway.....it's just that no one talks about it. Walter is also correct ...we are gonna take a HUGE PR hit over this. The public hates us now. Wait until Fox News convinces them that The UAW is preventing the rebuilding of American manufacturing and is responsible folr the death of Ford GM and Chrysler. I can see it all now. I fear we haven't seen anything yet. The worst is yet to come. Anyway thats just my two cents and how I see it. I respect your right to disagree with me and wish us all luck. We're going to need it.

The arguments against this contract are all nothing more than the proverbial red herring. For that matter the arguments FOR this are the same. Simply put, the die was cast when GM and Chrysler accepted bailout monies and these same clauses, ( arbitration, wage freezes and so on ) were inserted into their respective business plans by the government and the courts. From that moment on the jig was up. If you're upset about arbitration, well be upset with those who put it into GM's agreement. It matters not a twit that Ford didn't accept govt. money, except in the PR Dept. If the UAW loses in arbitration hearings about pensions or wages or health care to GM, then come hell or high water Ford WILL one way or another get the same thing even if it means breaking whats left of the union in order to achieve parity with its rivals. Thats just a sad fact and it doesn't matter if we have a right to strike or not . The long slow death spiral has already begun and there is nothing we as a union can do to stop it unless we also organize the transplants. Simple economics really. As long as someone somewhere is willing to do our jobs for half the wages and bennies or worse, and as long as people are willing to buy those products, look arounnd you at all the Hyundai's and Kia's whizzing by, and don't look now because here comes Tata from India and Cheery from China, well our goose is cooked. It's only a matter of time and not much time either.

Well Mr Ichiro Fujisaki you subhuman FUCK......if you would please Fujison.....look up in the sky....we've got something for ya !

We received a flyer today in Cleveland from the union stating that The UAW would NOT reopen the contract at this time, instead using that as leverage to get new work in America. NOT North America but The USA. :happy feet: NOT commitments to "discuss" new work but actual new work. :happy feet: However the flyer did mention Fords 36 billion dollar debt......the proverbial 800 lb gorilla in the room compared to GM's now 17 billion dollar debt after filing bankruptcy. Basically it sounds like Bob King is saying "cough up the new work and do it NOW , HERE, and we'll talk about the contract" Smart, shrewd, RIGHT, ......this is why we have a union. :shades:

I agree with you pioneer. The dual trades agreement seems to be the biggest difference. That and the elimination of dental and vision from retirees healthcare is my best guess what Ford is after here. On all this vote no chatter...I'll vote no as well on any further givebacks except for what Chrysler has with their new trade agreement, but we should all realize if we do it will surely mean Ford will close more plants and move more jobs overseas unless The International grows some balls and decides to stop them. This outsourcing has to stop and right now the ball is in The Internationals court.....what ya gonna do Brother Gettlefinger?

Thanks for your understanding Len. I'm really sorry to hear about your wife. I need a drink as well, but I'm an American auto worker so I can't really afford one . However....a double scotch on the rocks here, Dewars if you're buying. :happy feet:

Len that is a fair enough reply my friend. Forgive me for my hostility, I, like everyone else am a little short tempered of late and you're entitled to both your posts as well as your opinions. Forgive me , we're all on the good ship Titanic together. You are not my enemy nor am I yours and my anger was uncalled for. Enough said.

Hey Len maybe you should do some of your "research" in a dictionary and learn how to spell before you try to pass yourself off as some kind of expert huh? Before you try to educate me Len , maybe you should spend some time educating yourself first. Nothing worse than a "back yard expert" trying to convince us all he knows what we don't when he couldn't spell "cat" if we spotted him the "c" and the "t" to quote the old Dallas Cowboy linebacker Thomas "Hollywood" Henderson, you sanctimonious jerk. I suggest if you don't own a dictionary, THEN USE THE FUCKING SPELL CHECKER AT THE TOP OF YOUR PAGE THANK YOU !!!!!!! Until then please ...keep your faux "research" and advice to yourself as you waste away the hours on the red velvet recliner sitting on your front porch. :reading:

Really Gettlefinger and his oh so preoccupied and to busy to speak to and on behalf of the membership should be spitting out more stories and history lessons like this one. We have indeed been in dire straights before more than once and we've come back. It won't be easy and it'll take a long time but we can do it. If you've lost all hope, and you feel helpless like most of us now do, you owe it to yourself to check this lesson in history out. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30389457/

heard two numbers....65% yes 35 % no or 60 % yes 40% no either way we voted yesterday (wed 3/4/09) and it passed. whew!

Cleveland Engine and Casting Plants Local 1250 voted today Wednesday March 4 and the word on the floor was it PASSED 65% yes, 35% no

Yeah I'm a Cleveland guy who got laid off in 80......and who has been dodging Lima's unionbusting whipsawing asskissing BS ever since. Oh yeah....and a chocolate shake with that burger and fries please......

Yes obviously Ford didn't present enough corporate ass for Lima to kiss. This is the best news I've heard all day. This most despicable of Ford plants, this cancer on the UAW now will get what they have deserved for far to long and that is CLOSED! To all the people at Lima I hope you've enjoyed the ride, it was fun wasn't it, singlehandedly destroying the UAW from a cornfield in western Ohio. Hey Lima people...the rest of us ARE NOT GOING TO MISS YOU !!!!!!!!!!!! Oh and one last thing You Lima unionbusting scabs.....yes I think I WILL have fries with that McDonalds burger you're going to be frying soon. :happy feet:

Sadly Spring the only thing that will reach these freeloading scabs is a reality kick in the ass and its coming for sure. Sure card check is great but these scabs have had more than one opportunity to join the union only to vote no. They decided to freeload off of our dues and make what they do only because of what we make and Toyota's desire to keep the union out. Well now the buzzards are about to come home to roost. Let's hope the UAW can make these sheep see it. Even though I hold them in the lowest possible regard, it's obvious that now more than ever we need each other.

Nice article Spring, however for years the UAW has concentrated on organizing nurses, service workers and the like. In reality we won't get any clout relative to us until we're able to organize the transplants. That's the key and the only way for the UAW to survive and prosper. Maybe with these gathering storm clouds now we'll be able to do it since Toyota and Honda will almost certainly be coming after their workers soon and maybe they'll see that the UAW is their only way to survive. If the UAW was able to sit down at the table with all the transplants unionized......wow....now that would be clout. I honestly believe it's our only chance. Here's hoping that those cowardly scabs who work for Toyota who have gotten a free ride off of our union for far to long will finally grow a pair and see the light.

Thanks for the kind words Big Jim my Brother. I really appreciate it from the bottom of my heart. I agree, I work in Cleveland and the mood here is dour to say the least. Supervisors are out of control, doing whatever they want and damn any consequenses. I'm sure it's the same everywhere but I swear they treat us like we're the enemy. It's as if they think these engines build themselves and we're simply in the way. In their defense they're ( the supervisors ) scared to death and they never know when they will be the next one to get the dreaded tap on the shoulder and told to gather their things and leave. That said it's way past time for Ford to call off the dogs and give us all a break. For to many years we've been leaned on, threatened,intimidated and generally hassled. I mean "we're all one Ford family" Mulally says but christ I don't treat my family this way. Oh well thats my rant. Thanks again Big Jim and good luck to you and to us all. We're going to need it I fear

Indeed my Sister it is good to live another day. Even if I'll be broke LOL :happy feet:

Simply because The UAW cannot put one company at a competitive disadvantage to the others. They all need to be on the same level playing field such as it is. That old adage, "live by the sword, die by the sword" comes into play here. If GM can't live with this agreement, then Ford won't have to either.

I agree Spring. I had 6 months of chemo at $20 grand a pop, 28 radiation treatments at $8 grand a pop. Surgery at $15 grand. Ford simply can't give you enough money to retire without healthcare. One would have to be Warren Buffet to afford the cost of life when you're sick. I was just telling TAC why I couldn't take the buyout is all. Bottom line is GM is simply not solvent. No they're not going to go away to be sure but you can rest assured that we will write the check for their survival. I can scream at Corker McConnell Shelby and Demint all I want. It doesn't change the economic realities here. Even Obama isn't going to keep pouring billions down GM's black hole forever. When that happens we'll all look back fondly at this contract and wish we had it back. Trust me I hope I'm wrong because if I lose my job it's a death sentence. But it is what it is and there is simply no way it's going to change by March 31st. Two points in closing though Spring....there was NEVER a time when I thought the chemo wasn't worth it. Such is the human drive to live even for one more day. And oh yeah, if nothing else ....I got my hair back girl LOL :happy feet:

I didn't say it would be the end of the companies. I said it would be the end of our contract pay and benefits

No TAC I'm not. You see I have a chronic terminal disease and if I take a buyout with only 16 years in I lose healthcare. While I honestly believe I'll lose it anyway, I'll lose it for sure if I take a buyout so very little chance is better than no chance at all. So maybe you can find it in your heart to allow me to try to live for a few months longer. Does that answer your smug smartass question? Whether I agree with this contract or not ( and I don't ) the situation is now out of our hands, we just don't know it yet.

I hate to bust the party but here is my two cents. It matters not a twit whether we pass this or not because its only going last for a month or so before its thrown out the window. Here's why.... NO WAY GM is going to survive. They were at the White House yesterday discussing options and owning up to burning through $31 BILLION in cash last year. They now need $20 BILLION more just to turn the lights on. At some point even Obama is going to say enough and force them into a Govt. bankruptcy and we all know what that means. While I understand why the UAW went to Ford to cut this deal there is simply no way GM can afford even this contract and at this point it's out of their hands. In fact it's out of our hands at this point. GM is going to fail and then a judge is going to impose his will on what we make and Ford will demand the same. It was a good ride while it lasted but I honestly think it's over. I hate to be the pessimist here, but look at the facts and the dollars. So all of this "HELL NO vote no" posturing is a moot point. Vote yes.....vote no it doesn't matter the whole damned thing is going to be flushed down the toilet by March 31st when The Big Three has to present their final plans to the govt. Can anyone here convince me that things will turn around and GM Ford and Chrysler will stop bleeding cash in the next 4 weeks? March 31st is the date....mark it down. So go ahead and vote whatever way you feel you must. Doesn't matter even this horrible deal will not stand for long because the economy is just going to keep getting worse and these companies are simply out of money period. I hope I'm wrong but I just don't see it.

First off thanks for taking it in the spirit it was written and not taking offense. I always appreciate a good well thought out discussion. I am aware that this is done in an attempt to lower insurance premiums, but the possibility for abuse is huge here. Further, this "tinkering" with particulars as they relate to insurance costs amount to little more than rearranging the proverbial deck chairs on the Titanic. The real issue is the American model of corporate supplied health care which was instituted in the post WW11 boom years simply is no longer viable in a global economy. When foreign companies can enter the market without the huge legacy costs of their American counterparts, that is an insurmountable mountain for American companies to climb. It is simply not a level playing field. The only answer is an Amercian National healthcare policy which would relieve all American companies of this unfair burden.