goingincirclez

The Focus may not be doing great, but it is hardly dismal. They've sold over 126,000 YTD. Another thread had posted a reference to their fleet sales percentage being 28.5%. That's still well over 90,000 sold at RETAIL. Not too shabby for a car as old as dust that was given a major decontenting a couple years ago. Dare I say, it's almost as good (to this point) as the Fusion, and WAAY ahead of the poor FiveHundred, not to mention the Taurus? And the Focus' fleet % is still LESS than the "almighty" Caliber and Cobalt. Fact is, this little car is all Ford has in the small / economy segment, and it shows, but is holding its own. If they don't fark up the '08 refresh, it should continue to do so. And no, I don't own a Focus, so I'm not a fanboy fool. :shrug:

Thanks for the interesting post. If I may adress by point / segment as they come to mind: - I think the "Personal Luxury Car" *could* be ready for a comebck in a few years, but not now. The only thing out there is the awful Monte Carlo. But I think once the "thug crowd" starts getting its hands on some older MN12s and rear-drive G-bodies, they could repopularize them in a niche sense once more. The main thing that luxury coupes have against them is their size: big enough to guzzle like an SUV, but without the space and versatility. My T-bird is a wonderful car with lousy mileage, but it handles awesome. Not many people care about that. - I think the market that is ready to come back is the 4-door "American sedan" market. You know, the one Chrysler nailed with the 300. Just look at all the Caprice Classics and the like out there, duking it out, becoming modern classics. If Ford updated the Panthers properly, they coule be onto something. - Subaru thought the market for a mini-truck was ripe, hence the Baja. It wasn't. The ElCamino has a mullet stereotype and most people don;t even know what a Ranchero was. I would like to see a concept offered at some point, because I still think these would be great for some poeople... but are there enough of them? - As for small trucks, the Ranger is the closest thing out there. It is what it is. Everything else has gotten bigger by demand. If there were one segment I think would be ripe for inventing, it would be the return of "vanning". Give young people something basic and cheap but highly customizable as a canvas. Something A or B sized, sorta like a Scion xB but not as ugly. Something like a Honda Element but not as big or expensive. Something like the Focus PanelWagon concept, or Bronco concept. Youth culture is eating that crap up. All the segments you talked about before (Mustang, Minitrucks, 70's vanners (that was mine)) were all targeted toward the young. The minivan was an accident superceded by the SUV. Really, I think crossovers are a great thing with a stupid freaking name and too much "But it's like an SUV!" styling. Give it time.

Holy crap! I think I saw Elvis!

But that's The Fordward Way, didn't you know? I'm really interested to see how the Zephyr > MkZ changes pan out in the market. OK, so Ford once again dropped a half-baked steamer on the market, but it at least managed to float for a while. Now in less than a year they're getting it to where it should have been - hopefully they'll be rewarded. So as for the 500 and Freestyle... they'll have languished for 3 years instead of 1. But if the market responds to an improved Zephyr/MkZ, maybe that will portend good things for FiveHundred v2.0. The Five Hundred / Freestyle update has to be the worst kept secret out there, and that is positively KILLING them. Ford admitted almost from the start that it was damaged boring goods and "we'll get it right in a couple years". And it's a shame because the 500/Freestyle is So. Painfully. CLOSE!! to being a real winner... And people like me who are on the fringe of being "in" the market for a new car are waiting for it. Because it will either be worth the wait and price, or it's won't be "all that" but still make the prices of the earlier used ones drop like rocks. Either way, we win in a year or two but Ford loses till then. It's for THAT reason alone that it cannot come too soon!

Actually, I have indeed put the Mazda6 wagon on my short list , just haven't had time to check it out properly. I do know it's the basis for the Triplet platform after all. So it's my "Fusion wagon", incognito. We did check out a Madza6 (sedan) at a used car fair a couple months ago, and had a favorable impression. But the wagons (used) seem to be few and far between. The only new Mazda dealer close by is in Lexington and doesn't seem to have too good a rep, and we haven't had time to go to Louisville for the sole purpose of testing cars. I wish the FLM dealer in Frankfort would carry Mazda; they have been so good to us and really deserve a crack at our business. But I like the Mazda6 , other than my grandfather will roll in his grave if he knows I'm considering a "jap car".

That's pretty much what we've done. It's been real tempting, us being car enthusisats and all, but I will keep a vehicle until it dies. I've always had cars that were up to and past 10 years old or so, it's no biggie to me. I figure that if you can manage the payments and keep the car that long, it doesn't matter what it cost. Key words being MANAGE THE PAYMENTS. Yes a Focus is cheap. So is a base Fusion, which isn't much bigger. My wife just doesn't feel safe in a small, 4-banger car. Myself, I don't care, I would love to zip around in one. But as a family unit, we need to compromise. And there aren't many options from Ford... If Ford had a Fusion Wagon, we'd probably have one right now. The T-Bird was a nice, "big" car with good comfort and performance and a big trunk; where is that Ford today? So as it is, we either wait for a used Freestyle or see what our situation is when the Edge comes out. Hell, I'd buy another '97 T-Bird if one turned up. But I would never get in the pattern of trading payments every few years. I know people who do and it's just stupid, and they are always having one issue or another. Hmm, think they'd learn... (and BTW you want to see people living the Fancy Debt Lifestyle, spend some time in Lexington, KY ).

Sound advice to be sure. I don't like the idea of paying more than $300/mo for any car for any length of time. But, sometimes the waters of logic get muddied a bit. Consider in my case: at one point my wife and I were paying a combined $450 a month for our two cars. "Unfortunately", once they were paid off, we had a baby, so it's not like we pocketed or saved that payment money... :rolleyes: But one thing for sure is we keep our cars till they die or explode. I drove my old car for 5 years and still have it. She's had her car since '98 and I've had my new one for 5+, again. So 6 years of payments is completely reasonable to us, if it fits our budget and meets our needs. And we actually paid our old loans early by a few months and were never once upside down, so we manage where we can. But, as you suggested, those were only 5 and 4 year loans. You are still right in that a Focus might make better financial sense in a lot of ways. But my wife won't have a 4-banger (and I hate the '05 refresh), and if we get something else we really would like more space. We certainly aren't foolish enough to go for the full SUV's in this day and age. A Freestyle or Edge is a good compromise, maybe... but while we're as blue-dyed as any Ford loyalists worth their salt, it's getting hard to stay patient... my car won't last forever (not that I don't blame it sometimes, heh heh)

Yeah, this great news. Too bad the market's in a downturn and more people won't notice, but... it's a moral victory nonetheless. Kudos! :bandance: Besides, it soulds like this is maybe what they should have had all along, instead of the Excursion. Hopefully the eco-dogs will back down a bit now.

Ford doesn't suck because of that... but for cryin' out loud, why is the Mustang always Ford's be-all end-all of modern, affordable (sorry, GT doesn't count) fun performance of late? Sorry to say, there are those of us who respect and admire the Mustang for what it is, and are glad to see it out there... but just don't want or can't use one. So would a Focus RS really be such a bad thing? I have a magazine, the 1989 SI Swimsuit issue I think, that I've kept around for one reason: A Ford Ad. An ad that initially shows the Mustang GT... but folds out to reveal the slogan "Ford: Outperforming Every Car Company in America". And it was true: pacing the Mustang GT is the TBird SC, Probe GT, Escort GT, and Taurus SHO. Something for everyone! Why is that such a bad thing?

Hmm... I think you raise a few good points, but I hardly think Ford alone is guilty here; everything is so freakin' expensive nowadays. I wish I could cite the references I've seen in the past year or so, but it's well known that the "average price" of your "average new car" (however that is defined, bear with me) is actually beyond sensible financial reach for the "average family". I mean, you're going to blast Ford for pushing toward 30K for most of their line, right? OK, fair enough. I wouldn't pay 30K for a FreeSnoozer either. :slap: But would you agree that Ford is supposed to be a couple nothces above your bottom-feeder marques? And still a few rungs above entry-level traditional nameplates? If so, have you priced the so-called "entry level" stuff? The Honda Fit, Toyota Scions, Nissan Versas ALL push toward 20K easily. Oh sure they "start" at 15K or so but big deal, try finding one and putting up with it at that price. And Ford is stuck giving Focuses away to compete. Hell even the craptastic Aveo can push into mid-teen territory, I believe. So if we agree that most Fords should be seen and priced as a cut above those "entry-level" cars, where does that put us? $20K and up.... to $30K with options and model overlap and all that jazz. Sad but true. :shrug: But I don't think the Infinitis, Caddys, Lexuses BMWs et cetera have gotten any cheaper either. And at least Ford, facing the equation of SUV + $3/gal = HA HA, starts the new Expy at 30K... which is a bargain, relatively speaking (and makes the Freestyle even more lame. They can't win).

My beloved '88 T-bird had this feature. When I bought the car used, I thought "Neat, extra buttons, but why?" And then I got addicted to them! Could leave the car running in winter and run inside for something quick. Or go to the beach or somewhere outdoors like that and leave EVERYTHING in the car. Or drop it off for someone else to use. Or just pop the car open for whatever crossed your mind while the keys weren't handy. Ironically, I never did lock my keys in THAT car... but how I wished my wife's car had that feautre one infamous day.... The pad on my '88 lit up, which was cool. I never liked the plain ones, and the new bubble style on the window frames don't look right. The old ones were hardwired and had code modules in the trunk; you could change the code by soldering resistors. The new ones are essentially wireless keyfobs glued to wherever. Odd that Ford is newly promoting this now... and odder still that this feature has survived all the cost cutting. But I sorta agree with Nick and Sizzler that the interface could use some polish!

Yeah I remember that one from here. Take off the graphics, and that car still had "Bad-ass " written all over it. Totally useless as a Five Hundred, but still cool as heck. They should have built a few and sold 'em as even more limited-edition limited-support racing playtoys to the same types who bought the GT. You know Leno woulda bought one. I hope Ford hired those kids on the spot!

Aw hellz yeah! I hope to god they nailed that sucker from the start, and we'll see it everywhere it'll fit, soon! A revived and resepctable SVT could be a real possibility with a motor like that. Hell, even if they don't slap an SVT badge on anything, it would make for some interesting sleepers. "Look at that lame-o Five Hundred over ther- WTF?!!" :bandance:

Well that's a stupid assumption. The promotion is good to ANYONE, good credit included. So someone with excellent credit can take advantage of this plan just as easily, and why wouldn't they? Any other time I'd only get "the lowest rate", whihc is still interest. For now, there is none. Doesn't take a rocket scientist... oh, wait.

NLP - That's EXACTLY the position I'm in! My wife and I each have our own '97 T-Bird Sport. Both have been paid off for a good while and have been rock-solid reliable (outside of the intake manifold defect which Ford made good on). Mine has got 160K miles, I beat the hell out of it driving it like it was meant to be driven, and while it's just now showing some wear it's never let me down. (I evangelize my Ford T-Birds to coworkers and they still think I'm crazy, and throw the minor issues in my face, but I digress.) We have a 20-month old toddler and both our families are a few hundred miles away, so we'd like something bigger. And something with better mileage then my BattleBird to make my 50+ commute. The Freestyle is appealing... but not enough to take on the payments. It's just so boring looking. I like everytihng about it, and lord knows that overwound 3.0L might be good for me (no more speeding tickets ), but still... I just can't bring myself to debt for something so uninspiring looking. I'm still young, after all. We test drove the Five Hundred as well and my wife loved it, and I certainly liked it... but when I found out that the retiree set is all over it? No thanks. I mean, the Edge promises to have less interior space, wnd will probably cost more, but I actually WANT one of those. What will probably happen is we get a used Freestyle eventually... which doesn't help Ford much. Or else we get a new Caliber or Vibe or something like that... too bad Ford doesn't offer something similar (I like the Focus well enough but the wife doesn't, go figure).

Mr. DeLorenzo is usually pretty accurate, once you get past all the tired self-coined catchphrases and euphemisms he peppers his site with. And he does tend to beat the horses well past death just to say he told you so. That said, it's subtly obvious he likes Bill Ford, and wants them to succeed... but the other poster here was dead-on in that GM consumes much of his mindshare, and he suffers from the I AM AN ENTUSIAST AND THIS IS HOW IT SHALL BE syndrome. Nonetheless, it's hard for me not to agree with the general tone of his rant on Ford this week. His concession on the rumored TTV6 situation is spot-on: it might be a good thing in the long run, but doesn't help Ford's image in the near-term. I think Ford is just stuck in a 50/50 image cycle right now. For every positive thing they do, there's something equally negative, thus giving the appearance they aren't really doing much of anything. Which we all know is not the case, but there's only so much a company can do at once. It's like a game of chess only the other opposing pieces are all moving too and your pawns keep changing their stance. So given limited resources and time, and so much research, and perception and "gut" feelings, what do you do? You make a calculated risk where you can afford it and an educated guess when you can't. I trust that Bill is doing the best he can to make the best decisions, if for no other reason than to protect his own inheritance... which is really a good reason if you think about it. 'Cuz if he goes down, it's over. So it's in his interest to succeed, and that would benefit everyone. They did this before in the 80's. I wonder if they can do it again.

Wow... this is almost tempting enough to make me jump the gun on the Edge and settle for a bloated 1992 Escort Wagon er oops I mean Freestyle. I hope this drives traffic, because Ford could use some. And it's very good news that they're limiting this to a week or so and not having another FIRE SALE O' DA MONTH which means that they're at least really really trying to be smart about incentives and resale value and alla that good stuff... But damn, haven't they learned ANYTHING? Giving cars away to subprimers almost bankrupted Mitsubishi for good... And if I don;t jump the gun now, well maybe they'll have to do the same thing AFTER the Edge comes out. Sigh. It's the same old deal, consumers conditioned to wait for the better deal. Funny thing is, it's the can't-kill-it-for-trying reliability of my '97 T-bird that's actually keeping me from buying a new car right now. I guess Ford "can't win for losing" sometimes...

Well, to be fair I did say that Ford "talked" with BMW because I couldn't recall if it was about a "merger" or "merger-takeover". So if that's what it was, thanks for setting me straight. At any rate, my point was if there were compelling reasons back then, they are no longer relevant and BMW is in a much stonger position of strength today (at the very least, I doubt Ford could ever get away with uttering the word "takeover" today).

But that's just the problem - What does Ford have that BMW wants? Unlike Ford, which has unsuccessfully tried to support too many "luxury" brands to the very detriment of the one they started with, I doubt BMW sees much value in the Lincoln franchise, or anything else. BMW would be content to let Lincoln die on its own, which means more market for themselves. Now perhaps Ford has trucks and a distribution network, things of value, but there's so much deadweight that I doubt BMW is interested. Unlike Mecedes-Benz, BMW hasn't tried to be all things to all people, so trucks are of little use to them, especially in a declining market for such. Didn't Ford talk with BMW for a while back in the days when DaimlerChrysler was just coming to be? As I recall, the Family wouldn't relinquish control, and that was a non-starter to BMW then. So then Nasser went on a buying spree and thus Ford is where they find themselves today, while BMW remains as strong as they ever were. BMW doesn't need Ford.

I tend to agree with Traveler, above. Ford just doesn't have the reputation for turbo sixes needed to cement instant cachet with a new Lincoln of unknown pedigree. As a buyer, I would be suspect of a new (unproven) 3.5 being hastily turbocharged (twice) for a new (unproven) alphabet-soup Lincoln that may or may not be the best Lincoln can offer. Remember the 89-95 T-Bird Super Coupe? Exactly - very few do. It was good for more power and torque than the 5.0s and 4.6s they finally shoehorned into that sled, but by the mid nineties they couldn't give the SC away (and contrary to belief, the poor MN12s were good for 100K sales units right till the unceremonious end, during the nascent SUV craze). Maybe it was the price. Maybe it was the realization that underneah all that fancy supercharging lurked the same 3.8 timebomb that nobody misses. Maybe it simply was the wrong car in a changing market. Point is, the Thunderbird enjoyed a good run in those years, the SC did an admirable job of holding the pedigree... and yet it still flopped. And history has not been kind to the SC. Granted, 14 years can change a lot. We know that Ford CAN build a respectable 'charged motor (2.3 turbo) when they want to. I really want to believe they've learned from their mistakes and the 3.5 will not (lord knows it cannot) be another 3.8. And if they have to start somewhere, then God bless 'em for trying - I hope it sticks. This dare to be different thing and all of that. But asking people to plunk some serious bank for an unproven platform with a dubious pedigree may be asking too much. The TBird SC was a car that lived to a pedigree and even it floundered. The turbo 4's of the 80's have become sought after in hindsight but this isn't the 80's. There are more competitors now who've been nailing the luxury game much better than Lincoln. A V8 would offer a proven conmfort zone befitting a Lincoln, while the TT6 would be an excellent option to test the waters and offer a high0water mark, Sort of like what the Shelbys are to the Mustang. Now if the decision has been made in stone then bitching about it won't help. But they better nail the execution on this one. After that, it's up to the market, and I hope for the best.

Ahh, I saw that on the other thread - Best damn post I've seen here, for all the right reasons. Sheesh, finally convinced me to sign up just to say that, no less. BTW I know you were being sarcastic. Keep the faith, Rich.