goingincirclez

True enough on one level... On the other hand, how many times have we heard "They're wanting to charge HOW MUCH for that?!" on this forum?? :rolleyes: Like Blackhorse said: nothing is really "free", even if it IS "standard".

See, the thing is those Trim-level packages are what's so damn complicated. Because that's how you end up having to pay for Leather seats and the "SEL base price" just to get the premium stereo or other BS. The ONLY thing that a trim level base price should be based on is powertrain. So essentially you make the initial decision: do you want a 4, 6, or 8 cyl engine, with or without AWD or manual or whatever? When it comes to options, the things I hear most people complain and get picky about wanting / excluding are the numbered things, which you seemed to agree with: Stereo, Wheels, Sunroof, etc. With the possible exception of the sunroof, all of the others should be installable on any random car coming down the line at the time. So it should not be that hard for a customer to get what they want exactly how they want it. As for my other "packages", yes that is a fine line between complexity of chioce, versus including a bunch of crap people don't want to pay for. The best I could do in theory was to group them somewhat logically. But you may as well use a dartboard.

I wonder if my "suggestion" got lost in the xr7 / deanh banter a few pages back? What do you folks think of something like this? Here's the way I would package options: Power group (essentials): Locks, Windows, Mirrors, Seats - stuff that's standard on 98% of cars anyway. Power Group 2 (gimmiks): Memory seating/mirrors adjustments. Folding seats, power doors/liftgates as applicable. Automatic gimmicks lights group: Auto headlights, auto Climate control, puddle lamps, overhead lights, etc. Minor safety & convenience add-ons: Fog lights, adjustable pedals, block heater, rain-sense wipers, rear a/c, etc. In addition to the above packages, the following options are available PACKAGE FREE AND REGARDLESS OF TRIM LEVEL Stereo upgrades are NOT tied to any other package (may be included but do not require one). Wheel upgrades are NOT tied to any other package (may be included, but do not require one). Sunroofs are NOT tied to any other package (may be included, but do not require one). Seating surfaces are NOT tied to any other package (may be included, but do not require one). If leather, heated seats are an extra option NOT tied to other stuff. Extra airbags are NOT tied to any other group (may be blah blah blah) Major safety components like ABS, RSC, T/C and the like are NOT tied to any group. Should be standard when possible to begin with. Suspension, drivetrain, body appearance kits can denote the base trim-level offerings. So therefore all numbered options then have a flat, consistent price regardless of what model (S, SE, SEL, Limited, WTF) you are adding them to. And there's no confusion about "Well the SEL has this this and this standard for $x,xxx more but we'd have to add these options so should we get the EddieB for $z,zzz more instead'? If you can't offer drivetrain choices (such as on the D3s) then screw the model trim names and all that "this includes this, that one includes that" BS, and just leave it to al-la-carte options. THAT will eliminate a lot of consumer confusion and frustration right there! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now those were as few packages as makes sense to me: trying to account for wiring, relays, harnessess, and the like that should be modular. Also what makes sense to be lumped together based on function and popularity. But I guarantee those are also my subconscious personal preferences. So if you don't agree with my groupings, you can see why "fewer packages" is a bad idea. It doesn't matter what everyone else is doing.

"OH NOES! It looks like this, it looks like that": Of course, sometimes it needs to be restated that the more things change, they more they stay the same: (look again at those pics of the oh-so-trendy Scion xB! OH YEAH, because Gen X and Y wouldn't be caught DEAD in a minivan!! :hysterical: )... Strangely, FWIW I like them all, but the Flex the best. Except the name which is retarded. But I love its comparative stretched-out lowrider look.

Here's the way I would package options: Power group (essentials): Locks, Windows, Mirrors, Seats - stuff that's standard on 98% of cars anyway. Power Group 2 (gimmiks): Memory seating/mirrors adjustments. Folding seats, power doors/liftgates as applicable. Automatic gimmicks lights group: Auto headlights, auto Climate control, puddle lamps, overhead lights, etc. Minor safety & convenience add-ons: Fog lights, adjustable pedals, block heater, rain-sense wipers, rear a/c, etc. In addition to the above packages, the following options are available PACKAGE FREE AND REGARDLESS OF TRIM LEVEL Stereo upgrades are NOT tied to any other package (may be included but do not require one). Wheel upgrades are NOT tied to any other package (may be included, but do not require one). Sunroofs are NOT tied to any other package (may be included, but do not require one). Seating surfaces are NOT tied to any other package (may be included, but do not require one). If leather, heated seats are an extra option NOT tied to other stuff. Extra airbags are NOT tied to any other group (may be blah blah blah) Major safety components like ABS, RSC, T/C and the like are NOT tied to any group. Should be standard when possible to begin with. Suspension, drivetrain, body appearance kits can denote the base trim-level offerings. So therefore all numbered options then have a flat, consistent price regardless of what model (S, SE, SEL, Limited, WTF) you are adding them to. And there's no confusion about "Well the SEL has this this and this standard for $x,xxx more but we'd have to add these options so should we get the EddieB for $z,zzz more instead'? If you can't offer drivetrain choices (D3s) then screw the model trim names and just add options. THAT will eliminate a lot of consumer confusion and frustration right there! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now those were as few packages as makes sense to me: trying to account for wiring, relays, harnessess, and the like that should be modular. Also what makes sense to be lumped together based on function and popularity. But I guarantee those are also my subconscious personal preferences. So if you don't agree with my groupings, you can see why "fewer packages" is a bad idea. It doesn't matter what everyone else is doing.

:rolleyes: Yeah, because all Aerostars had F O R D spelled out on that tiny hood... (I'll have to spot you the rust though. Would that be on the rocker panels or rear wheel well?) Actually I love both these concepts, including that spelled out FORD on the hood - the tri-bar grille looks great without that stupid blue bellybutton. And the Flex itself is just neat to begin with.

Personally, I don't think there are too many options. As has been pointed out: they are there, but since you have to take X and Y to get Z half the time, there may as well only be just a handful. This is very frustrating when trying to price a new car. Fewer package choices is not necessarily a good thing. Once they bump that one "must have" feature into a group with a bunch of other junk you don't want, you start to consider competitors who don't play such games. And I know these days are long gone and will never return, but I absolutely love how varied and customizable older cars used to be. As a fan of the lowly unloved 75-78 Ford Granada, it's amazing how many trim and color and interior choices were available on that basic car. 3 different panels, 8 different colors, and various and sundry trim pieces available for just the interior door panels alone! Yeah, it was probably a parts stock and service/repair nightmare, but man... every car was unique and personality all its own. And I merely cite Granadas as an example of a plain-jane car I'm familiar with - mustangs were obviously even more configurable and other manufacturers had the options buffet as well.... Now everything is the same. Bah.

You are correct that the MN12 debuted with only the 3.8, either NA or supercharged. This was a serious flaw, and the cars were blasted much like the D3s as being too big and underpowered with the standard 3.8, which was true. At least in the MN12's case, the SC3.8 was an option. But they were not able to fit the 5.0 inside because the car was designed with a low cowl and the engine simply would not fit. The woeful 3.8 was a serious achilles heel however, and forced Ford to figure out just how to cram the 5.0 inside, which they did for 1991. And not just a base model either, but the full-grown HO 5.0 of the day. Sales recovered somewhat although the SC began to slip. The 4.6 was introduced with the redesign in 1994. Unfortunately it was a detuned model, because THOU SHALT NOT BE FASTER THAN THE MUSTANG but it did have a good troque grunt for its day. SC sales continued to drop (the issues with the 3.8 becoming more widely known certainly did not help) and it was discontinued after 1995. The MN12 got whacked in the Fordocaust of 1997, and it's been a decline for FoMoCo ever since. Between myself and my in-laws, we have no less than FIVE MN12's. (In addition to the sig cars, there's an additional '94 T-bird and a '91 Cougar 5.0 that are still driveable but past their prime... having a farm means you can stash them for fun and future). Plus I still have my '88 Fox-body. They were great cars. The MN12s got long in the tooth, but the V8 ones were bulletproof. And if you see a well-maintained 87-88 on the road today, they STILL look gorgeous.

Please read one of my earlier comments on the previous page. While I'll admit my current situation precludes me from the market, I would never consider a "B" car even for just myself, let alone my Family. As Pioneer states, there are plenty of C-sized cars that do an admirable job and are sensibly bigger than a roller skate. And this is a case of "Today it's a 'just' B car. Tomorrow it's a _____ (once we realize the profits we could make...)"

You may be right. FWIW, I actually do boycott WalMart somewhat. It's virtually impossible to do so entirely here in the midsouth, but I spread my money around and I DO check labels. Actually, the Walgreen Co. was one of the first to really open the floodgates from China. Virtually everything they ever sold as a house product has come from China, going back to the 80's. So you can't avoid Chinese goods all the time. Most of the time, unfortunately, we don't have a choice. The Genie was out of the bottle before most of us stopped to look. But when it comes to cars, you bet your ass we do still have a choice, and I am drawing a line.

Good point, but I'm still 100% with Nick on this one. The symbolic significance of a Chinese Ford would be hard to swallow and I for one would not accept it. I mean, the company that revolutionized the USA, now outsourcing to our biggest best friend / worst enemy? What have we become? It may not be entirely Ford's fault, but you can guarantee that it would be one hell of a big wake-up call to a lot of people. And in today's blame-happy what-have-you-done-for-us-today USofA, we're only all too quick to shoot the messenger. "But Toyota is building plants in the US while Ford goes to China* ". Brilliant. *yes, _I_ know the true "full story" there but you can bet that's how the everyman will perceive it....

Not disagreeing with your point, but I feel like I should say: exploring? More like: ExplorED... Been there, done that, hated it, went back to guzzlers and barges thank you very much. I mean, what was the onslought of compacts in the 70's? The first Asian Invasion? Granted, we may equate cars of that size as "C-lite" segment today, but was there even a "B" segment back then? Pinto, Fiesta, Festiva: all within the last 30 years from Ford alone. All gone, all not missed. Most ran away screaming. Your points are still valid regarding the differences of US to EU, and why a B car needs to be outsourced. But I don't know if B-cars will ever become a profitable, entrenched segment in this country as long as they have to share the roads with SUVs and an ever-increasing fleet of Class 8 semis and other heavy road trucks. Not to mention the inherent differences in infrastructure, and wasteful American sprawl. It's one thing to have a B-car when you live in a city and have everything close by under control. It's another when the average American Joe has to drive 10-15 miles to the bigbox for whatever reason, or commutes 30 miles to work, and share the road with all those other monstrous vehicles. Nobody's right to have larger vehicles for their needs should be begrudged, but as long as I'm sharing the road... no cracker-jack box for me, thank you. People in this country are not "exploring" a new concept that cars can be small. They're considering going back to it, only grudgingly, only in extreme cases where and when it makes feasible sense to do so. $3.00 gas was supposed to be the end-all. Hasn't changed squat.

Holy crap! Are you sure that Honda interior is real?? That thing looks cobbled together from salvage! NOTHING flows, there are probably 6 or 7 colors of plastic, and there's no consistency to speak of. Round bezels and knobs on square consoles with swept dashtops and trapezoidal elements... How anyone can bitch about the Fusion interior after seeing that silly-putty shit-pile is beyond me. In fact, I might not be able to complain about the 2008 Focus exterior design anymore.... that interior makes the Focus look like fine art. Egad!

Gah... want... to like it.... but can't... keep fork... out of eye... I hope I've just become "old". Really. Because I just can't bring myself to like that... that thing. And I've gone on record as either appreciating the whimsy of or in some cases even liking more popular abominations as the Pacer, Gremlin, and Aztek... Personal taste aside, I do hope it does well. (Er, wait a minute. Those damn alien / CRT eye sunglasses are still popular. Hmm, let me rethink that... :do what: )

I don't think they were ever on the front. Of course the BO itself is relatively recent bauble (used since 1982). But with T-birds they (nor any other "FORD" logo) were never on the rear either, until the MN12's.... which had birds AND ovals AND the car name on the back (talk about stupid overkill)! I used the necessary repainting following a sideswipe to remove all but the birds from mine. The BO looked bad on the rear of the early SN95's as well... like it was crammed in there. But I like the spelled-out "retro" FORD on the new Mustang.

We can only hope! What a classic - and classy - styling cue. I sort of understood the use of the emblem on the '97 edition, which was a little softer and more rounded, but now that "bricks are back" in terms of styling, nothing says "tough" like a name embossed in metal for all time. By comparison, a badge can fall off. Agreed also on the original post - the grille emblems are indeed getting out of hand. I especially HATE the chrome ring around the collar emblem on the Fusion. An emblem should be understated. The car should draw you in and make you say "what's that", and you have to hunt for it. THEN you remember it. I always loved how the 80's T-birds and later mustangs had no blue ovals at all. Those cars spoke for themselves.

Yeah, and they idea behind THAT was thus: they didn't pass them up by blind stupid default; they have a good experience, and so they actually may indeed consider another Ford product in the future...

Perhaps, but only in terms of "scale" (i.e. "what constitutes a 'leap'?") So Ford won't have any problem retaining those customers concerned with towing & payload. GREAT! Now why is there ANY reason they shouldn't look at why others choose to buy a Ram (HP), GMT900 (HP, FE), or Tundra (???) and make sure the new F-150 beats them as well? So you make sure the F-150 leads ALL key categories, and there's no compelling argument that could be made against it from any angle. THAT is what the next leap would be. And somebody will do it one day.

But see, you just contradicted yourself. Share was largely stable between Ford and GM, UNTIL Dodge redid the Ram for 1994 and jumped to a 20% share... which has continued to be something they can (and have to) rely on. Look. I'm not saying that the current F-150 is a "crap-heap". Far from it. But your post is proof-positive that the release of a product that leapfrogs the competition and represents real sea-change in product philosophy can do wonders for a company. So Ford is going to retain and perhaps improve its leadership in the areas where they have always maintained it. Big deal; that's the bare minimum acceptable in this market and anything less should get people fired. But with more players trying to carve out the pie, why should Ford NOT come out of the gate, throw down the gauntlets and say "Here, check THIS on for size? Gotcha b***hes!" You just proved that this could be done, vis-a-vis the '94 Ram, which also proved that loyalty is always for sale. If it weren't then that Ram would have done jack squat, and Toyota couldn't sell Tundra one. If Ford could come up with a similar coup, they could go from 35% share to 45% or better, instead of pandering to the same ol' same ol'.

"These days"? Hell, that's basically all they changed on the 97 T-bird "Sport" as well (in addition to larger wheels). Point is they've been playing the sport-faker package game for at least 10 years now. Revise some cheapo suspension components, tack on a few cosmetic goodies (wheels, spoiler), keep the drivetrain the same, and there you go. Now, having owned and driven MN12 T-birds with and without the "sport" package, I can say this: Yes, it's largely a poser option. But, it does make a difference. The standard MN12's were comfy and floaty but the "sport" package did give it a little more snap when it came to handling, especially hard cornering. Really, it was a lot more fun, especially with a set of good tires. Did it have stompin' HP? No. But could you have fun and cross the twisties and snap corners if you liked? Sure thing. The Fusion Sport sounds like a good deal... were I in the market for that car I would add it in a heartbeat.

Tried that.... "Wait 16 years" was the response

AHH... I ALMOST FORGOT THE BEST PART OF THE STORY! So, I have discovered that my almost-3-year-old daughter, is TRULY a girl after her daddy's heart. Because at both Ford dealerships we visited, she was INSTANTLY drawn to just ONE car on the sales floor. Each time, it was the Shelby Cobra. (she especially liked the logo: "Look daddy... a SNAKE!") :D

Eh, I didn't think it was too off-topic. Even if it were, that's par fer the course on BON is it not? :shades: Dean, I appreciate your insight. Especially the case of how Pat Kain ended up egging himself... really, I didn't have anything against him or the dealer personally until that came off as a flagrant, stankpile lie. I mean... I'm human. We're ALL human. So a dealer can make an honest mistake. Just own up to it! And Bob's mistakes were many. He was too full of himself, put all his faith in one deal that fell though on his end, apparently kept expecting other people to give him details, and just flat-out wouldn't listen to me toward the end. It's a shame because the dealer with "shiny new state of the art facilities" came across as a shyster. And the one whose service department had done everything a customer could possibly hope for, had its sales staff shoot itself in the foot. This all just goes to show that it takes 100% on all sides. And honestly... I could well be in the market for a brand-new car some day. And where might I be inclined to start? Perkins Eastside Chrysler - which wouldn't be good for Ford, would it?

CONCLUSION Now, I’m not stupid enough to have all my irons in one fire. While I was waiting for Bob to come around, I spent a lot of time (maybe too much) trolling on Autotrader. I must have looked at 500 Freestyles, all in the name of comparison and evaluation. I considered buying from places as far as Indianapolis. When I discovered that Chicago cars are about $2000-3000 cheaper on average, I considered buying from there as well. But here’s one question I gotta ask: Why the hell would a dealer pay to list a car on Autotrader and then list nothing about it? There were at least 4 cars close to me that had a bare listing such as “2005 Ford Freestyle SE $19,750. You must contact Joe Blow for this price”. No info, no options, no photos, nothing. Yeah, now THERE’S a perfect use of the internet for ya. Regardless, there were 4 other nearby listings I inquired about. Two of them never got back to me (yeah, what are they paying money for again). The third replied quickly but was ruled out for other reasons (no fault of theirs). The fourth was actually the first one I inquired, back when the adjustable pedals were on the “must have” list. The salesman replied to inform me that his car did not have them (it was an SEL). But he was the quickest to reply, very thankful for our inquiry, offered his help in any way and just seemed like a nice guy. His name was Bill. His dealership was in Louisville. This exchange first took place shortly after Bob offered to find us a car. As I said, pedals were high on the want list at that time but as the days went on, we rethought our position. I sort of forgot about Bill in Louisville until I realized that, hey, wow, their SEL is damn near a Limited in every way except for the pedals (and heated seats and 18” wheels). And it is about $4000 less than all the others… is there a reason for that? On Friday Sept 28, when we got to our hotel (after Bob once again dropped the ball) I had an email from Bill, asking if we were still interested. Very nice of him… so I replied and said that we were working on another lead, but thanks to his inquiry I would put his car on the short list, but we would no be able to look until Tuesday (I was hoping Bob would come through on Monday). Bill thanked me for that info and said he would let me know if anything developed. Well, you all know what happened Monday AM. So I called Bill’s dealership to speak to him. Another guy answered and said Bill was in a meeting; what car was I interested in? I told him, and he paused – “Er, huh, I thought we sold that over the weekend – no it’s still here. I’ll let him know, may he call you back?” Now my first thought was “Oh, they’re going to play the “competing bidder” game and work me, forget it.” But there was enough tone of confusion in the salesman’s voice that he seemed genuinely sincere and not up to something. Bill called me back an hour later. I introduced myself verbally as the guy who’d been emailing him about the Freestyle. Bill also had the mometary pause of surprise: “Someone told me it might be sold – let me verify that so you don’t come all the way here then”. Again, he sounded sincere. But it was not sold, so I told him we would be in later that evening, but probably not before 6. Instead, we got there at 5. Bill was expecting us – and had the car staged in the sold lot, waiting just for our test drive. He didn’t have to do that, but he said “I didn’t want you to come here for nothing so I figured I would hide it for a day”. Nice!! Bill was wonderful. Possibly even nicer than Pat Kain. He waited patiently while we fiddled with the blasted child seats, and let us drive anywhere we wanted. It took almost an hour to get the test drive done between installing the seats and trading divers and inspecting the vehicle. How was the car? MUCH better than expected. It truly was a “baby Limited” in every way – fully optioned, $32K window sticker still in the glovebox - only lacking the heated memory seats, 18” wheels, adjustable second row… and cheesy fake wood trim of a true factory Limited. So yeah, who cares? And I don’t know if these venerable Duratec3.0’s are just that tight in the D3s and take forever to break in, but man, this one was SMOOTH! All the others at the Ford Challenge events at KY Speedway (2004 and 2005), my in-laws’ 2006, and the others I’ve test-driven all seemed tight and noisy. But with just 40K on the clock, this one was silk. By far the best-riding and handling of the 7 Freestyles we’d driven. No joke. It was perfect. And in another happy coincidence, it just happened to be blue. So WHY was it so much cheaper than the others? Carfax had it as a one-owner. NADA, Kelly, and other dealer listings had this car priced several thousands higher. Save for a few very minor paint scratches, this car seemed brand new, and was impeccably detailed. Bill explained: “We rely heavily on volume internet sales, and monitor the market. We always price ourselves well below anyone else in the area. We do quick turnaround and have only have cars for about 3 weeks. We have people like you who come from hundreds of miles away. It’s been tremendously successful for us.” He drew up the bottom line in 5 minutes – NO surprises! – and left us to discuss. Everything had been perfect – he provided documentation (carfax, nada guides, the works) and we liked the car. The price really was a bargain even straight-up – nearly $4000 less than others we had seen with the same options/miles/etc. Still, nobody just buys a car straight-up unless they’re made of money, right? So we made an offer to essentially wipe out the tax, title, and license/reg fees. They accepted it within $200 on the spot. Sold! :happy feet: We had our paperwork stamped, filed, and approved, and had the deal done in half an hour. They gassed up the car, removed the windshield papers and we drove it home. Now THAT was a perfect experience! Bill was the consummate professional – respectful of our time and situation. Knew we were coming, had the car saved and ready. No pressure whatsoever. Patiently waited and helped while we fought with the second of our two child seats. We made an offer we liked and they took it on the spot. They had the car in perfect shape and ready to go by the time the papers were signed. It took longer to drive there and back and test drive. So who was this dealer? Perkins Eastside Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge of Crestwood (Lousville), KY. :yup: ...Which is kind of funny because the LAST Ford we bought (my green ’97 T-bird) also came from a Mopar dealer :shrug: (but they were scum). So concludes this odyssey. Now that the purchase experience was damn near perfect, I can only hope this 2005 Freestyle is as reliable as our warrior Thunderbirds have been (you'll note we've still kept both of them). For Ford’s sake… since their own dealers blew it… it had better be.

PART II WEDNESDAY SEPT 19 Following our attempted deal with Jack Kain Ford, we went over to our local FLM dealer – the one whose service department has always been so wonderful. It's almost closing time so wanting to cut to the chase, I ask the first person on the sales floor who acknowledges me, “Can I speak to the Used Car manager?” Salesman says he's not it, but he'll be glad to help me, and invites me to his office. His name is Bob. I get my wife and we go talk. Now this guy, Bob, is your basic Type-A Good-ol-boy, knows-everyone-and-everything type o' guy. Potentially grating, almost annoying, but nice enough to keep you at ease. And as I look around his tiny office, I see he's been with this dealership for over 25 years – since the day they opened – and has several Best Salesperson awards and all that, as recently as 2004. So he must know his stuff. Cool. And to his credit, he doesn't try to sell us their plain-jane SE, and simply listens: My wife and I are looking for something nicer. The Limiteds had memory seats, which would be great if it had the adjustable pedals too. It HAS to have a sunroof. HAS to have Rear AC. No white, no red. Your competitor down the road listed one for $XX,YYZ. So, what can you find? Bob asks us a few questions. “Does that include TTL? (well, that would be great of course, duh). Does it have to be this weekend? (preferably, yes). You do know a Limited at that price could be tough?" (Yes, but it obviously has been done... and a loaded SEL can still work, we gave you our key features). He then asks: “Can you wait 'till next Tuesday? There's a big Ford lease auction and we can probably find something. It may not be exact, but we'll try...” Sounds reasonable. So we leave, having told him just enough about what we would like, but not enough to tip our hand and find our “dream car” at max price. We can wait if we need to... let's see what they find. MONDAY SEPT 24 - 6PM Bob calls me. “Hey, we found you a BEAUTIFUL car! It's a 2005 Limited, it's got 16K miles, it's got leather & sunroof. It's Blue. You're looking at around $XX,XXX which might be a little higher than you wanted, but is probably worth it. We'll be taking it in on a trade.” Well, his price is very close to Jack Kain's gray one, with half the miles. And unknown to him, Blue is our favorite color. Maybe it will work. But the price, though close , is still toward the high end of comfort. Don't want to tip too much. Maybe it has other features? “Well, the price might be pushing it, but find out everything it has, and let me know? “ “You got it bud. Let me call the guy working the trade-in and I'll get RIGHT BACK TO YOU”. I never hear back. TUESDAY SEPT 25 (Auction day) I hear nothing. WEDNESDAY SEPT 26 Nothing. Bob must not be serious about earning my business. In the meantime, in looking around we have decided that perhaps a laoded SEL offers the best deal... we really only like the memory seats in the limited... and our preferred combo of pedals/rear AC/ sunroof seems surprisingly rare. No sense trying to get blood from a stone. We could save a few grand and go to an SEL. Maybe I should tell Bob about that, it might make things easier. I would, if he'd call me like he promised. THURSDAY SEPT 27 – AM Bob calls me - Finally. “You still interested in that car?” Well, yeah, but you never called me back with the details. “Well my guy is at the auction right now where it is, let me have him get it for me and I'll let you know...” (WTF? I thought it was a trade-in? And wasn't the auction TWO DAYS AGO?) I don't say that. But I DO try to tell him that, hey, we revised our options a bit so maybe you'll have an easier time finding an SEL? But I never get to tell him this, because he's so in love with this phantom blue car that he's telling me all its details again (16K, blue, moonroof, etc) but not the ones I ask for... and his Good-ol'-boy personality has him shouting “You got it bud!” and hanging up as soon as I first remind him I want more details on it.... THURSDAY AFTERNOON: “OK we got it, it we can have it tomorrow for you to come look at.” I tell him we need to go out of town for a bit over the weekend and may not get to see it, unless we stop in that evening before heading out. Did he get the other info? “No, he didn't get that for me. Let me get it for ya" *click* Sigh. That's the THIRD TIME I've had to ask. THURSDAY PM: Nothing. FRIDAY SEPT 28 – AM: Bob calls: “Yeah. You said you'd be out of town anyway? Well the dealer we're getting it from can't have it here today so I guess we'll have it on Monday. Well, it should be here Saturday if you come by just to see it when you get back.” (OK, really - W.T.F.??! NOW it's a DEALER trade?) I am perturbed, because my wife and I changed our arrangements to have time to see the car he told us he would get yesterday. I ask him for the details “Uh, it's got the pedals, and stuff. It's a nice car.” Mmm-hmm, sure it is. But I don't care now because he is clearly not listening to anything I have told him, and fighting to get a word in edgewise is like, oh what's the use. He's worse than a sports agent, acts like a rock star. And THIS was their best salesperson? His credibility from all those awards is losing stock with me. And I am losing patience. In the meantime, there is just the kind of loaded SEL we're thinking of, in Louisville... but we won't have time to go there. So I guess we can look at his car on the lot on Sunday, see if it's really all he keeps promising. SATURDAY SEPT 29: We finish our events early. I decide to call Bob and see if the car is there. “No, I told you it would be Monday”. I let my exasperation sound over the phone. “Well you were going to be out of town, I told you it MIGHT be here but I didn't promise it”. Whatever. You're a liar, don't you dare try to argue with me! At this point, the only thing to salvage this sale is if that car is EVERYTHING we had hoped for, at our price. And since we can't shop or deal on Sunday... they only get that last chance by default. MONDAY OCT 1: Message left at my desk while I was out: “It's Bob. I've got bad news... they guy we were getting the car from has been transferred and needs to keep it....” I don't even listen to the rest. But I do note this message marks the FOURTH new source for this Phantom Phreestyle: 1. Trade-in 2. Auction 3. Dealer swap 4. personal sale In the meantime, Bob Davis – salesman of the year – has wasted over a week of my time, and really soured me on Crossroads Ford Lincoln Mercury of Frankfort, KY. (at least their service dept is competent). I call my wife and tell her the news, and to plan to leave work early so we can go to Louisville.... TO BE CONCLUDED....